Why did Pakistan block Wikipedia? (was: "Pakistan 'degrades' Wikipedia etc.)

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Why did Pakistan block Wikipedia? (was: "Pakistan 'degrades' Wikipedia etc.)

Unread post by Midsize Jake » Wed Feb 01, 2023 8:35 pm

Pakistan ‘degrades’ Wikipedia, warns of complete block over ‘sacrilegious’ content
Manish Singh, TechCrunch India, February 1, 2023

Apparently this is just for 48 hours, at least initially.
The Pakistan Telecommunication Authority, the nation’s telecom regulator, said Wednesday afternoon that it had approached Wikipedia to block or remove certain “blasphemous” contents by issuing court orders, but said the online encyclopedia neither complied nor appeared before the authority.

If the “intentional failure” on Wikipedia’s part persists, the regulator will move to block the online encyclopedia within the country, it warned.

“The restoration of the services of Wikipedia will be reconsidered subject to blocking / removal of the reported unlawful contents. PTA is committed to ensuring a safe online experience for all Pakistani citizens according to local laws,” the regulator said.

The regulator did not elaborate on what content it had asked Wikipedia to remove.
We might have to set up a whole new subforum for this stuff — if I'm not mistaken, the number of countries that are blocking WP is in double digits now.

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Re: Pakistan "degrades" Wikipedia, warns of complete block (via TechCrunch)

Unread post by Hemiauchenia » Wed Feb 01, 2023 8:43 pm

It's currently very unclear about what content is even at issue, so its difficult to even comment on this until its clear what they're upset about. It could really be anything, though if its over obvious stuff like images of Muhammad, then its unclear why it wasn't blocked much earlier.

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Re: Pakistan "degrades" Wikipedia, warns of complete block (via TechCrunch)

Unread post by Beeblebrox » Wed Feb 01, 2023 11:44 pm

I mean, if they used the word "blasphemous" I think it is probably safe to assume this about WP bowing to religious preferences, which it obviously should not do.
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Re: Pakistan "degrades" Wikipedia, warns of complete block (via TechCrunch)

Unread post by Midsize Jake » Thu Feb 02, 2023 6:19 am

Beeblebrox wrote:
Wed Feb 01, 2023 11:44 pm
I mean, if they used the word "blasphemous" I think it is probably safe to assume this about WP bowing to religious preferences, which it obviously should not do.
Well, there's preference and there's dictum (dicta? dictums?). And as we've seen before, it's going to be treated by some like it's Christians not respecting Islam regardless, even if this is only happening on the Urdu, Punjabi, or Pashto Wikipedia(s) — if only because the WMF is headquartered in the USA.

I might also point out that there's also no shortage of English Wikipedia articles the Pakistani government is presumably unhappy about, such as Pakistan and state-sponsored terrorism (T-H-L) and Bleed India with a Thousand Cuts (T-H-L). So it could be indirectly related to content like that, too.

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Re: Pakistan "degrades" Wikipedia, warns of complete block (via TechCrunch)

Unread post by Hemiauchenia » Fri Feb 03, 2023 10:03 pm

Permanent block appears to have been implemented, still not clear the particular content at issue. https://www.theverge.com/2023/2/3/23584 ... us-content

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Re: Pakistan "degrades" Wikipedia, warns of complete block (via TechCrunch)

Unread post by Midsize Jake » Fri Feb 03, 2023 11:12 pm

Frankly, there's little for us to say about this until they come clean and specify exactly what it is they want taken down. And they still haven't even said which Wikipedia it is, which means it's probably English.

I really wish people wouldn't do this — everybody is going to think this is a ruse to cover for their wanting to remove/quash criticism of the regime, most of which has zero to do with religion. It's more likely (IMO) that it is religion-related, at least tangentially, and they don't want to draw attention to it because of the Streisand Effect (or whatever the equivalent to that might be in the Islamic world). But that's not what most people are going to assume, and nobody is going to spend much time more working out the mystery for themselves, either.

You can see this already in the universally-derisive comments section of The Register's article, which in turn basically treats the Pakistani government like a bunch of idiots, and perhaps deservedly so in this case.

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Re: Pakistan "degrades" Wikipedia, warns of complete block (via TechCrunch)

Unread post by Zoloft » Fri Feb 03, 2023 11:59 pm

Midsize Jake wrote:
Fri Feb 03, 2023 11:12 pm
Frankly, there's little for us to say about this until they come clean and specify exactly what it is they want taken down. And they still haven't even said which Wikipedia it is, which means it's probably English.

I really wish people wouldn't do this — everybody is going to think this is a ruse to cover for their wanting to remove/quash criticism of the regime, most of which has zero to do with religion. It's more likely (IMO) that it is religion-related, at least tangentially, and they don't want to draw attention to it because of the Streisand Effect (or whatever the equivalent to that might be in the Islamic world). But that's not what most people are going to assume, and nobody is going to spend much time more working out the mystery for themselves, either.

You can see this already in the universally-derisive comments section of The Register's article, which in turn basically treats the Pakistani government like a bunch of idiots, and perhaps deservedly so in this case.
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Why is Pakistan blocking Wikipedia? (a theory)

Unread post by Midsize Jake » Sun Feb 05, 2023 11:07 pm

Okay, here's my best guess at what's actually going on here. Sorry in advance about the length — it's complicated, but this explanation seems to cover all the bases, at least that I know of.

Pakistan has the largest population of Ahmadiyya (T-H-L) (more commonly known as "Ahmadi") Muslims in the world. This is a "messianic movement" led by a fellow named Mirza Masroor Ahmad (T-H-L), whose formal title within the movement is "Caliph," a word which as you all know roughly translates to "leader" or "ruler" in a civil, rather than religious/spiritual sense (though it's also translatable as "successor," as in, "successor to the Prophet").

While a lot of these Ahmadi folks (several million) do live in Pakistan, apparently the Pakistani authorities don't consider them to be Muslims at all, but rather an heretical offshoot at best. And that's not just a prevailing opinion, it's actually the Second Amendment to the Constitution of Pakistan (T-H-L). There's been quite a lot of anti-Ahmadi activity over the years, most recently in Burkina Faso (Ahmadi version, non-Ahmadi version) which Wikipedia also covers in its Persecution of Ahmadis (T-H-L) article. Masroor Ahmad lives in exile in London, because he'd be arrested (perhaps even executed) for heresy if he ever set foot in Pakistan or any other Muslim-governed country.

Meanwhile, at some point late in 2020, someone noticed that when you typed "caliph of islam" into Google, the Wikipedia article on Masroor Ahmad appeared right at the top of the results, because his title is "caliph," and Google's ranking system is, at best, unaware of religious politics, and at worst, utterly moronic. That made Muslims around the world — and especially in Pakistan — extremely unhappy, resulting in several days of angry SPA edits and talk-page posts to the Masroor Ahmad BLP and related articles, followed by the article being protected on Dec. 14. That didn't completely quash the dispute, but it would have made it more "manageable" from the Wikipedian perspective.

As a side-note, Wikipedocracy had a thread on the subject too, started by Mr. Rhindle on Dec. 23. But probably because the article had already been protected, it didn't look like it would be an ongoing issue. Also, it was Christmas, and we were paying more attention to US political events at that point anyway. So, we moved on. (And yes, obviously, I blame Trump.)

Needless to say, protecting the article in its more-offensive state didn't solve the problem from the Muslim perspective. The WP editors weren't going to help because as we all know, they don't care about how their own high Google rankings affect the rest of the internet, or the world. With few exceptions, they simply take it for granted that they'll be positioned at the top and don't even think about the ramifications. So at some point during all this, the Pakistan Telecommunication Authority (PTA) was assigned to deal with it on a more official, "top-level" basis, and on Christmas Day 2020, the PTA issued a notice to both Google and WP to make it stop, which explicitly mentions "Wikipedia's portraying Mirza Masroor Ahmad as a Muslim" — the only thing it mentions in relation to Wikipedia.

I believe the Christmas-Day timing of this was both providential and intentional from the Muslim perspective, because they wanted to call as little attention as possible to the situation in the Western media. This would also explain the PTA's failure/refusal to specify the exact nature of the "blasphemous content" they're blocking Wikipedia over right now. They really want the Masroor Ahmad deleted completely, or at worst, have the word "caliph" (and also "leader," ideally) completely excised from the article. But if they say so, that's going to elevate Masroor Ahmad's profile enormously in the West, especially among right-wingers. As of now, nobody has even heard of this guy, but as soon as the Fox News et al types realize how much this situation pisses Muslims off, they'll probably drop everything in order to promote the Ahmadiyya movement as a "more reasonable" (i.e., "more West-friendly") alternative to currently-predominant Islamic religious practice, so "why isn't the Biden Administration defending them?" For a preview of that, there's this article. (It's a lot like what they tried to do with the Mojahedin-e Khalq (T-H-L) in neighboring Iran, for example.)

It's possible that this even explains the 48-hour "warning block" tactic, which they also didn't do in 2020, because maybe since then they've developed a clearer understanding of how Western media news cycles work. The 48-hour block was reported in a few places, but since it was "only for 48 hours," no big deal, right? And then when the permanent block happens a few days later, it becomes a case of "oh, that's the same story as last week, we already covered it, no need to run it again."

The other thing that's interesting here is that it looks like Google tacitly complied with the initial 2020 demand. If you enter "©@⎿!℗ℌ of !$⎩@ℳ" in Google right now (using the actual words instead of the absurd l33t versions I just put in to see if Google would stop blacklisting this page), the Masroor Ahmad Wikipedia article is nowhere to be seen, along with (I suspect) a lot of other pro-Ahmadiyya material. This explains why only Wikipedia is being blocked now — they still want the article gone, or at least heavily redacted, but at least it's not appearing at the top of those Google results for that particular search. And as for the question of "why now," admittedly that's not so clear, but it could just be because the Pakistani economy is in a big slump at the moment and the government badly needs some distractions. And of course, the angry talk page posts are still going on.

Anyway, the obvious conclusion for our purposes (at least as I see it) is that it really shouldn't be all that big a deal, or even all that hard, for the Wikipedians to fix this in a way that satisfies the demands of the Pakistanis and other Muslims — without necessarily making the article(s) in question "non-neutral" or even inaccurate. All they really have to do is replace the word "caliph" with a sentence or two explaining that "Masroor Ahmad's title consists of a term that refers to or describes someone who is deemed a responsible authority in civil matters," or something to that effect, and then point out that his use of the term is rejected by mainstream Islam. And then the whole thing would probably be over.

Will they even consider that? Of course not! Not least because so far, public reaction in the West and even among many Pakistanis is almost totally on their side. But if I'm right about this and this is all the Pakistanis actually want, then they really should. Deleting the article is probably too much to ask of them (though of course it's what I personally would do), but just removing the word "caliph" is not such an unreasonable demand.

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Re: Why is Pakistan blocking Wikipedia? (a theory)

Unread post by Hemiauchenia » Mon Feb 06, 2023 12:17 am

Midsize Jake wrote:
Sun Feb 05, 2023 11:07 pm
Anyway, the obvious conclusion for our purposes (at least as I see it) is that it really shouldn't be all that big a deal, or even all that hard, for the Wikipedians to fix this in a way that satisfies the demands of the Pakistanis and other Muslims — without necessarily making the article(s) in question "non-neutral" or even inaccurate. All they really have to do is replace the word "caliph" with a sentence or two explaining that "Masroor Ahmad's title consists of a term that refers to or describes someone who is deemed a responsible authority in civil matters," or something to that effect, and then point out that his use of the term is rejected by mainstream Islam. And then the whole thing would probably be over.

Will they even consider that? Of course not! Not least because so far, public reaction in the West and even among many Pakistanis is almost totally on their side. But if I'm right about this and this is all the Pakistanis actually want, then they really should. Deleting the article is probably too much to ask of them (though of course it's what I personally would do), but just removing the word "caliph" is not such an unreasonable demand.
I think removing it would set the bad precedent that Wikipedia gives concessions on article content in order to avoid being blocked, which would encourage other authoritarian regimes to block Wikipedia, and is really contrary to how Wikipedia works as a volunteer crowdsourced encyclopedia to begin with. Like, how are you even proposing that the WMF would remove this, like as an Office Action, or putting it to a deletion vote?

Pakistan's problems with Ahmadis go much deeper than just the Ahmadiyya caliphate, they don't even see Ahmadis as muslims, so I don't really see how the position of the Pakistan gov could ever be satisfied without seriously violating WP:NPOV.

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Re: Why is Pakistan blocking Wikipedia? (a theory)

Unread post by Midsize Jake » Mon Feb 06, 2023 1:41 am

Hemiauchenia wrote:
Mon Feb 06, 2023 12:17 am
Like, how are you even proposing that the WMF would remove this, like as an Office Action, or putting it to a deletion vote?
The WMF shouldn't get involved in this any more than they have to. I'm talking about regular Wikipedia users, finally coming to the realization that something they did — a word they used — mortally offends certain people, and then not doing it anymore. Not gonna happen, but either way, the WMF shouldn't be involved at all if they can possibly avoid it.
Pakistan's problems with Ahmadis go much deeper than just the Ahmadiyya caliphate, they don't even see Ahmadis as muslims, so I don't really see how the position of the Pakistan gov could ever be satisfied without seriously violating WP:NPOV.
Again, that depends on whether they'd be satisfied with just replacing the word "caliph" with an explanation of why they're not using that specific word. If the Pakistanis want all of Wikipedia's Ahmadi-related content to be altered to reflect the Pakistani official line, or deleted completely, then yes, that's obviously unreasonable.

So then the question is, would not having the word "caliph" in the article be a WP:NPOV violation? It's not ideal in terms of reflecting precisely what the (Western) sources say, and I understand that it might seem unreasonable from a Western/non-Muslim POV, but I don't see why it would be non-neutral as long as it's adequately explained in the article.

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Re: Pakistan "degrades" Wikipedia, warns of complete block (via TechCrunch)

Unread post by Mojito » Mon Feb 06, 2023 4:35 am

Thanks Jake for the detailed explanation.

If true, then Wikipedia shouldn't budge IMHO. If someone titles themselves as "God" or whatever, then an article can report that fact, and people whose beliefs (religious or anything else) are insulted by the fact will just have to deal with it.

Hopefully the Streisand Effect kicks in and this incident draws attention to the Pakistan government's persecution of Ahmadis.

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Re: Pakistan "degrades" Wikipedia, warns of complete block (via TechCrunch)

Unread post by Midsize Jake » Mon Feb 06, 2023 9:55 pm

Oh well... I guess all that was a waste of time.

PM Shehbaz orders immediate restoration of Wikipedia
Tahir Sherani, dawn.com, February 6, 2023
“Blocking the site in its entirety was not a suitable measure to restrict access to some objectionable content,” the PMO statement said. “The unintended consequences of this blanket ban, therefore, outweigh its benefits.”
What was the point of all that, then? Did they just want to see how many Western media outlets would cover the story, or if any of them would bother to dig past the press release, or even speculate on what they were thinking? Looks like the answers are "lots of them, but on page 6" and "no."

If I were an egomaniac, which we still don't know, I might suspect that they were monitoring this thread, and when I (correctly? incorrectly?) guessed what their rationale was, they figured the jig was up. :D

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Re: Pakistan "degrades" Wikipedia, warns of complete block (via TechCrunch)

Unread post by Giraffe Stapler » Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:51 pm

Midsize Jake wrote:
Mon Feb 06, 2023 9:55 pm
What was the point of all that, then? Did they just want to see how many Western media outlets would cover the story, or if any of them would bother to dig past the press release, or even speculate on what they were thinking? Looks like the answers are "lots of them, but on page 6" and "no."
It may be as simple as the PTA acting on its own and then the decision being reviewed by a cabinet committee who has the benefit of seeing how it was received in world press. Or they just figured out that Wikipedia wasn't going to capitulate.

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Re: Pakistan "degrades" Wikipedia, warns of complete block (via TechCrunch)

Unread post by The Blue Newt » Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:56 pm

Giraffe Stapler wrote:
Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:51 pm
Midsize Jake wrote:
Mon Feb 06, 2023 9:55 pm
What was the point of all that, then? Did they just want to see how many Western media outlets would cover the story, or if any of them would bother to dig past the press release, or even speculate on what they were thinking? Looks like the answers are "lots of them, but on page 6" and "no."
It may be as simple as the PTA acting on its own and then the decision being reviewed by a cabinet committee who has the benefit of seeing how it was received in world press. Or they just figured out that Wikipedia wasn't going to capitulate.
This might even be able to be taken at face value, a kneejerk response taken back on consideration as counterproductive overall.

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Re: Pakistan "degrades" Wikipedia, warns of complete block (via TechCrunch)

Unread post by Mojito » Tue Feb 07, 2023 12:40 am

It's disappointing that the journalist didn't comment on why it was blocked in the first place.

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Re: Pakistan "degrades" Wikipedia, warns of complete block (via TechCrunch)

Unread post by DanMurphy » Tue Feb 07, 2023 5:10 pm

Would it shock anyone to learn that decision making in Pakistan is chaotic, rife with rivalry and backstabbing, and rarely strategic?

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Re: Pakistan "degrades" Wikipedia, warns of complete block (via TechCrunch)

Unread post by The Blue Newt » Tue Feb 07, 2023 8:09 pm

DanMurphy wrote:
Tue Feb 07, 2023 5:10 pm
Would it shock anyone to learn that decision making in Pakistan is chaotic, rife with rivalry and backstabbing, and rarely strategic?
I dunno if the qualifier “in Pakistan” is needed, except as an intensifier.

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Re: Pakistan "degrades" Wikipedia, warns of complete block (via TechCrunch)

Unread post by Midsize Jake » Tue Feb 07, 2023 11:41 pm

I guess I was tempted to post one of those meme GIFs or something saying "that's just what they want you to think," but I actually agree, it's much more likely that someone in the PTA (or a small group of someones) did all of this without the folks at the top knowing about it, much less approving it.

Nevertheless, the question of "what were they actually thinking?" is still out there, even if it only applies to this one (relatively minor?) agency within the Pakistani government.

And if anyone cares, this is what I would do if I were them, assuming they're actually serious about this: Find some people who are very good at reading and writing the English language (we know such people exist in Pakistan, though they don't even have to be Pakistanis) and hire them to make the case, on all the relevant Wikipedia pages and talk pages, that repeating the Ahmadis' use of the word "Caliph" is getting people killed. People like the nine clerics in Burkina Faso last month, for example. Try to point out that this is the sort of thing that turns angry fundamentalists into armed, murderous, bloodthirsty fundamentalists, because they see this stuff on the internet and they just can't control themselves.

That in itself won't get the Wikipedians to back off, obviously, since so few of them care about human life in places like Burkina Faso. But it might just spur the international community of general do-gooders to support their cause. It'll take time, and more money than they probably have, but if they keep bringing in more people (and ideally train them to act like actual Wikipedians), maybe they could eventually overwhelm the ones who are there now with sheer numbers.

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Re: Pakistan "degrades" Wikipedia, warns of complete block (via TechCrunch)

Unread post by Lurking » Thu Feb 09, 2023 1:49 pm

Midsize Jake wrote:
Tue Feb 07, 2023 11:41 pm
That in itself won't get the Wikipedians to back off, obviously, since so few of them care about human life in places like Burkina Faso. But it might just spur the international community of general do-gooders to support their cause. It'll take time, and more money than they probably have, but if they keep bringing in more people (and ideally train them to act like actual Wikipedians), maybe they could eventually overwhelm the ones who are there now with sheer numbers.
I have serious doubts such a strategy would pay off. Wikipedia still displays the infamous Muhammed Cartoons, after all.

(If anything, knowing en.wiki's tendencies, enough such comments on the relevant articles' talkpages and someone will decide that hey, "people have been killed over the Ahmadi use of the word Caliph" might be a notable subject for an article by itself...)

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Re: Pakistan "degrades" Wikipedia, warns of complete block (via TechCrunch)

Unread post by NAC » Thu Feb 09, 2023 6:06 pm

Midsize Jake wrote:
Tue Feb 07, 2023 11:41 pm

And if anyone cares, this is what I would do if I were them, assuming they're actually serious about this: Find some people who are very good at reading and writing the English language (we know such people exist in Pakistan, though they don't even have to be Pakistanis) and hire them to make the case, on all the relevant Wikipedia pages and talk pages, that repeating the Ahmadis' use of the word "Caliph" is getting people killed. People like the nine clerics in Burkina Faso last month, for example. Try to point out that this is the sort of thing that turns angry fundamentalists into armed, murderous, bloodthirsty fundamentalists, because they see this stuff on the internet and they just can't control themselves.

That in itself won't get the Wikipedians to back off, obviously, since so few of them care about human life in places like Burkina Faso. But it might just spur the international community of general do-gooders to support their cause. It'll take time, and more money than they probably have, but if they keep bringing in more people (and ideally train them to act like actual Wikipedians), maybe they could eventually overwhelm the ones who are there now with sheer numbers.
You can't censor what you say because some violent lunatics might get offended over it. Plenty of them were (and still are) against interracial or gay marriage, should people have stopped campaigning for that? No, the fundamentalists had to suck it up and live with it.
If someone commits violent acts in opposition to something you peacefully say, that is entirely on them. You are not responsible for their actions.

There are lots of crazed nutcases out there. A world where everyone censored what they said in order to not offend them would be a sad one indeed. It's letting the fundamentalists win.