Slate on the Tamzin RFA

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Slate on the Tamzin RFA

Unread post by Randy from Boise » Tue Jun 21, 2022 5:16 am

A decent inside-baseball story.

Inside Wikipedia’s Historic, Fiercely Contested “Election”
By Stephen Harrison
June 16, 2022

https://slate.com/technology/2022/06/wi ... amzin.html
In April, a programmer named Tamzin Hadasa Kelly ran for the unpaid, strictly volunteer position of Wikipedia administrator. Kelly, whose username is Tamzin, has contributed more than 34,000 edits to the site since registering her account in 2012. During her career, she has built up a substantial catalog of work, including Wikipedia articles about admiralty law and one for journalists killed during the Russo-Ukrainian war—a page that, sadly, has been growing.

Despite Tamzin’s decade-plus experience on the site, her request for adminship, or RfA, was close and bitterly contested as editors fiercely debated whether a comment Tamzin had made about a hypothetical Trump supporter disqualified her from the position. RfA is essentially a week of heavy vetting by the relatively small but reliably opinionated group that makes up Wikipedia’s core editor base. In order to successfully clear RfA without facing additional hurdles, the candidate must demonstrate that they are publicly supported by at least 75 percent of the editors involved during the seven-day community review period. At the end of Tamzin’s review, the site’s bureaucrats found that she had achieved 75.3 percent support from the more than 450 editors who opined. For reference, the successful RfAs in 2021 had only about 214 editors weigh in on average, meaning Tamzin’s RfA was roughly double the norm. By Wikipedia’s standards, both sides totally rocked the “vote.” (Quotes intentional—more on that later.) Each camp in Tamzin’s record-breaking RfA said that it was trying to uphold the core Wikipedia value of neutrality—but they couldn’t agree on what that meant in practice here.

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Re: Slate on the Tamzin RFA

Unread post by Zoloft » Tue Jun 21, 2022 7:19 am

*grumble grumble* few links in the article outside of Wikipedia. No links to us.

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Re: Slate on the Tamzin RFA

Unread post by Lyallpuri » Tue Jun 21, 2022 9:55 am

Nice read; thanks for sharing!

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Re: Slate on the Tamzin RFA

Unread post by Scorpions13256 » Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:15 am

Interesting article that I am somewhat responsible for. I watched some of the hearings going on about January 6, and I can safely say I understand where Tamzin was coming from even though I still don't agree with her. I say this because I was not aware that Trump directed the crowd to go to the capitol. Her arguments now make at least a little sense. Had I known this, I would have supported her after her initial clarification without any hesitation.

I always thought Trump was an idiot, but the lesser of two evils. If he gets the nomination in 2024, I simply won't vote for anyone.

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Re: Slate on the Tamzin RFA

Unread post by Ritchie333 » Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:25 am

Scorpions13256 wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:15 am
I always thought Trump was an idiot, but the lesser of two evils. If he gets the nomination in 2024, I simply won't vote for anyone.
The trouble is, that's what happened in 2016. This brilliant piece predicted Trump would get elected months before it happened - because of people who disliked Trump and Clinton and abstained from voting. I suspected something similar the day before the election.

I think if Biden had stood instead of Clinton, it would have been the same, people only voted for him this time around to get Trump out. I always thought Clinton was not what people wanted, but the lessor of two evils. If she won, Trump would have no hold on the Republican Party and a decent, moderate candidate (Mitt Romney squared?) would have won in 2020.

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Re: Slate on the Tamzin RFA

Unread post by Scorpions13256 » Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:32 am

Ritchie333 wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:25 am
Scorpions13256 wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:15 am
I always thought Trump was an idiot, but the lesser of two evils. If he gets the nomination in 2024, I simply won't vote for anyone.
The trouble is, that's what happened in 2016. This brilliant piece predicted Trump would get elected months before it happened - because of people who disliked Trump and Clinton and abstained from voting.

I think if Biden had stood instead of Clinton, it would have been the same, people only voted for him this time around to get Trump out. I always thought Clinton was not what people wanted, but the lessor of two evils. If she won, Trump would have no hold on the Republican Party and a decent, moderate candidate (Mitt Romney squared?) would have won in 2020.
I still won't vote Democrat under any circumstances. I tend to prefer people like Rob Portman or Mike DeWine. I like your article. Back in 2016, I predicted that a Trump victory was possible. However, I knew that he would lose in 2020.

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Re: Slate on the Tamzin RFA

Unread post by No Ledge » Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:34 am

Zoloft wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 7:19 am
*grumble grumble* few links in the article outside of Wikipedia. No links to us.
Stephen Harrison wrote:Tamzin’s RfA page stands at about 65,000 words, making it roughly 40 percent longer than the text of The Great Gatsby, and that’s not counting the side discussions that sprang up in several anti-Wikipedia sites.
Yes, it's unclear whether he even gave an anonymous shout-out to this site or not.
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Re: Slate on the Tamzin RFA

Unread post by Ritchie333 » Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:36 am

Scorpions13256 wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:32 am
I still won't vote Democrat under any circumstances.
And that's the problem with First Past The Post voting. At least in the UK, when some criticism of Boris Johnson is mentioned (and there's plenty of that to go round), only for somebody to say "I still won't vote Labour, Keir Starmer is dull", I can simply mention all the other parties standing, or independents, and suggest they vote for them instead. Suggesting that somebody votes for, say, the Green Party because they don't like the GOP or the Dems will get laughed out of the room.

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Re: Slate on the Tamzin RFA

Unread post by Mason » Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:49 am

So we have a fellow who unrepentantly tried to overthrow democracy after announcing before the election that he would not commit to a peaceful transfer of power, and who indicates he might run again.

The only way I could justify not voting against such a person would be if his opponent(s) were also on the “overthrow democracy” train. That seems unlikely in the general election but I wouldn’t bet against it in the primary.

Anyway…
Tamzin’s RfA page stands at about 65,000 words, making it roughly 40 percent longer than the text of The Great Gatsby
That’s a depressing factoid.

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Re: Slate on the Tamzin RFA

Unread post by No Ledge » Tue Jun 21, 2022 1:52 pm

Mason wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:49 am
Tamzin’s RfA page stands at about 65,000 words, making it roughly 40 percent longer than the text of The Great Gatsby
That’s a depressing factoid.
The Great Gatsby on Wikisource. Just nine short chapters

Tamzin's RfA 482,916 bytes
Bureaucrat chat 31,410 bytes
Wikipediaocracy chat 279 posts

TL;DR Sorry I didn't vote. I tend to tune out lopsided RfAs with counts like 179 supports and only three opposes.

The article was interesting. It brought me up to speed on what all the chatter was about that I just heard out the corner of my ear.
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Re: Slate on the Tamzin RFA

Unread post by ArmasRebane » Tue Jun 21, 2022 1:53 pm

Ritchie333 wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:36 am
Scorpions13256 wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:32 am
I still won't vote Democrat under any circumstances.
And that's the problem with First Past The Post voting. At least in the UK, when some criticism of Boris Johnson is mentioned (and there's plenty of that to go round), only for somebody to say "I still won't vote Labour, Keir Starmer is dull", I can simply mention all the other parties standing, or independents, and suggest they vote for them instead. Suggesting that somebody votes for, say, the Green Party because they don't like the GOP or the Dems will get laughed out of the room.
And being a marginal party also means that the third-party candidates are whackadoos. I grew up in a heavily blue city and even there, perhaps the easiest place for them to win, the Green Party candidate was a perennial loon.
Mason wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:49 am

That’s a depressing factoid.
There's always going to more words or ink spilled on a topic than you "need", it's just how humans discuss.

The bit about an RfA being detrimental to Tamzin's health and her needing to bring her mom in for emotional support does not inspire me with confidence for their ability to deal with tough situations in the future.

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Re: Slate on the Tamzin RFA

Unread post by The Blue Newt » Tue Jun 21, 2022 2:11 pm

ArmasRebane wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 1:53 pm
The bit about an RfA being detrimental to Tamzin's health and her needing to bring her mom in for emotional support does not inspire me with confidence for their ability to deal with tough situations in the future.
The fact that Slate wrote this up without using some politer version of “batshit cray-cray” does not suggest deep research on their part.

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Re: Slate on the Tamzin RFA

Unread post by No Ledge » Tue Jun 21, 2022 2:29 pm

The Blue Newt wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 2:11 pm
ArmasRebane wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 1:53 pm
The bit about an RfA being detrimental to Tamzin's health and her needing to bring her mom in for emotional support does not inspire me with confidence for their ability to deal with tough situations in the future.
The fact that Slate wrote this up without using some politer version of “batshit cray-cray” does not suggest deep research on their part.
I don't follow. The idea that "ability to deal with tough situations" is a requirement for administrators is what makes RfA so toxic. There is a shortage of administrators to do routine, uncontroversial clerical tasks.

Since there is an abundance of non-admins willing to deal with tough situations by making non-administrative closes, there is less need for admins to deal with tough situations than there is for clearing backlogs of routine, uncontroversial clerical tasks.
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Re: Slate on the Tamzin RFA

Unread post by The Blue Newt » Tue Jun 21, 2022 2:58 pm

No Ledge wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 2:29 pm
The Blue Newt wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 2:11 pm
ArmasRebane wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 1:53 pm
The bit about an RfA being detrimental to Tamzin's health and her needing to bring her mom in for emotional support does not inspire me with confidence for their ability to deal with tough situations in the future.
The fact that Slate wrote this up without using some politer version of “batshit cray-cray” does not suggest deep research on their part.
I don't follow. The idea that "ability to deal with tough situations" is a requirement for administrators is what makes RfA so toxic. There is a shortage of administrators to do routine, uncontroversial clerical tasks.

Since there is an abundance of non-admins willing to deal with tough situations by making non-administrative closes, there is less need for admins to deal with tough situations than there is for clearing backlogs of routine, uncontroversial clerical tasks.
A functional system would simply allow actually routine, uncontroversial tasks to be handled by anyone, or by some lower level person with less sweeping powers. The mindset at Wiki, however, is to give the metermaids tac nukes.

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Re: Slate on the Tamzin RFA

Unread post by Giraffe Stapler » Tue Jun 21, 2022 3:11 pm

The Blue Newt wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 2:58 pm
A functional system would simply allow actually routine, uncontroversial tasks to be handled by anyone, or by some lower level person with less sweeping powers. The mindset at Wiki, however, is to give the metermaids tac nukes.
A functional system wouldn't hand out these tools for life and have to pry them from people's cold, dead fingers. A functional system would unbundle page deletion rights from user blocking rights. etc etc

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Re: Slate on the Tamzin RFA

Unread post by Arishok » Tue Jun 21, 2022 3:30 pm

Interesting and surprising write-up (surprising that there was one at all).

Given that they wrote the article, though, I'm less surprised that SilkTork's 'segregation or apartheid' comment stood out and was questioned. I thought that at the time, that comment got less pushback than I would have expected; I suspect part of the reason it didn't was because a lot of people never saw the comment, which was made as a response to Swarm's support comment, instead of being in the Oppose section.

ST was questioned about it on his talk at the time and made it clear in his responses that those rather inflammatory comparisons were chosen quite deliberately.

After all's said and done, Tamzin seems to have done a fine job so far as admin.

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Re: Slate on the Tamzin RFA

Unread post by Beefsoup » Tue Jun 21, 2022 5:20 pm

Arishok wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 3:30 pm
After all's said and done, Tamzin seems to have done a fine job so far as admin.
Most admin work is entirely apolitical, and frankly, boring. The controversy surrounding her RfA sent an incredibly clear message of "please don't touch American politics", which it looks like she has abided by so far, so I think that even those who opposed her RfA will be satisfied with her.

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Re: Slate on the Tamzin RFA

Unread post by Tamzin, reluctantly » Tue Jun 21, 2022 5:45 pm

Scorpions13256 wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:32 am
Ritchie333 wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:25 am
Scorpions13256 wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:15 am
I always thought Trump was an idiot, but the lesser of two evils. If he gets the nomination in 2024, I simply won't vote for anyone.
The trouble is, that's what happened in 2016. This brilliant piece predicted Trump would get elected months before it happened - because of people who disliked Trump and Clinton and abstained from voting.

I think if Biden had stood instead of Clinton, it would have been the same, people only voted for him this time around to get Trump out. I always thought Clinton was not what people wanted, but the lessor of two evils. If she won, Trump would have no hold on the Republican Party and a decent, moderate candidate (Mitt Romney squared?) would have won in 2020.
I still won't vote Democrat under any circumstances. I tend to prefer people like Rob Portman or Mike DeWine. I like your article. Back in 2016, I predicted that a Trump victory was possible. However, I knew that he would lose in 2020.
One strange aspect of my RfA was people assuming that, due to my antipathy to Trump, I would therefore be a hard-line supporter of Biden and/or the Democrats. Perhaps the word "leftist" is overused so much by conservatives and liberals alike that people have forgotten what it means.

But I also think that, particularly in American politics, there's a difference between a supporter and a voter. You're a good example of the difference, with respect to Trump. I'm a good example, with respect to Biden. Originally the Slate piece had a subhed about my feelings on "Trump voters", and I asked them to change that; they chose to just nix it instead. (Every site's a wiki if you try hard enough!) I really DGAF what box someone checked on November 3, 2020. In a two-party system, that really doesn't tell you a lot about someone's views.

If we're going for bragging rights, btw, I called '08 and '12 right before Iowa; then called '16 wrong; but called '20 right a few days after the '16 election (and with it called that Trump wouldn't leave office peacefully).

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Re: Slate on the Tamzin RFA

Unread post by Arishok » Tue Jun 21, 2022 6:03 pm

As someone who closely followed the 2020 presidential primaries, it was downright amusing to see "how would you feel if someone said that about a Biden supporter, whatabout that eh" show up several times in that RfA, given that in self-describing as a "leftist", anyone knowledgeable about Democratic politics could tell you that this would likely mean Tamzin was very much not an "avowed, continuing supporter" of Mr. Biden.

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Re: Slate on the Tamzin RFA

Unread post by Scorpions13256 » Tue Jun 21, 2022 6:09 pm

Tamzin, reluctantly wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 5:45 pm
Scorpions13256 wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:32 am
Ritchie333 wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:25 am
Scorpions13256 wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:15 am
I always thought Trump was an idiot, but the lesser of two evils. If he gets the nomination in 2024, I simply won't vote for anyone.
The trouble is, that's what happened in 2016. This brilliant piece predicted Trump would get elected months before it happened - because of people who disliked Trump and Clinton and abstained from voting.

I think if Biden had stood instead of Clinton, it would have been the same, people only voted for him this time around to get Trump out. I always thought Clinton was not what people wanted, but the lessor of two evils. If she won, Trump would have no hold on the Republican Party and a decent, moderate candidate (Mitt Romney squared?) would have won in 2020.
I still won't vote Democrat under any circumstances. I tend to prefer people like Rob Portman or Mike DeWine. I like your article. Back in 2016, I predicted that a Trump victory was possible. However, I knew that he would lose in 2020.
One strange aspect of my RfA was people assuming that, due to my antipathy to Trump, I would therefore be a hard-line supporter of Biden and/or the Democrats. Perhaps the word "leftist" is overused so much by conservatives and liberals alike that people have forgotten what it means.

But I also think that, particularly in American politics, there's a difference between a supporter and a voter. You're a good example of the difference, with respect to Trump. I'm a good example, with respect to Biden. Originally the Slate piece had a subhed about my feelings on "Trump voters", and I asked them to change that; they chose to just nix it instead. (Every site's a wiki if you try hard enough!) I really DGAF what box someone checked on November 3, 2020. In a two-party system, that really doesn't tell you a lot about someone's views.

If we're going for bragging rights, btw, I called '08 and '12 right before Iowa; then called '16 wrong; but called '20 right a few days after the '16 election (and with it called that Trump wouldn't leave office peacefully).
I had a feeling that you distinguished between voters and supporters. I was going to ask you about that specifically.

Also, I was wrong about 2012, but too young to remember much of 2008.

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Re: Slate on the Tamzin RFA

Unread post by Beeblebrox » Tue Jun 21, 2022 6:38 pm

Scorpions13256 wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:32 am


I tend to prefer people like Rob Portman or Mike DeWine.
I left Ohio some 23 years ago, but even now the mere mention of DeWine.... :noooo:

You support the guy who said denying gay people the right to get married doesn't actually deny anyone anything important, an argument so bad, so hateful, that the Supreme Court laughed in his face and legalized same-sex marriage nationawide over it.

Even if you agree with that hateful opinion, he did s shitty job arguing it.

Portman actually bought a house on the street I grew up on, tore down the normal-people house that was there, and built a McMansion and I think that just sums right up what kind of person he is.
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Re: Slate on the Tamzin RFA

Unread post by Mason » Tue Jun 21, 2022 6:46 pm

Beeblebrox wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 6:38 pm
Scorpions13256 wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:32 am


I tend to prefer people like Rob Portman or Mike DeWine.
I left Ohio some 23 years ago, but even now the mere mention of DeWine.... :noooo:
Say what you will about DeWine, at least the dude took Covid seriously when it first hit.

A low bar, perhaps, but one many of his counterparts weren’t able to manage.

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Re: Slate on the Tamzin RFA

Unread post by Scorpions13256 » Tue Jun 21, 2022 6:58 pm

Beeblebrox wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 6:38 pm
Scorpions13256 wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:32 am


I tend to prefer people like Rob Portman or Mike DeWine.
I left Ohio some 23 years ago, but even now the mere mention of DeWine.... :noooo:

You support the guy who said denying gay people the right to get married doesn't actually deny anyone anything important, an argument so bad, so hateful, that the Supreme Court laughed in his face and legalized same-sex marriage nationawide over it.

Even if you agree with that hateful opinion, he did s shitty job arguing it.

Portman actually bought a house on the street I grew up on, tore down the normal-people house that was there, and built a McMansion and I think that just sums right up what kind of person he is.
I was not aware of that. I support gay marriage because I have yet to hear a sound argument against it. How long ago did he say this? My brother is gay btw.

I still support him because public opinion on the issue is changing fast. If Rob Portman changed his mind, so can DeWine.

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Re: Slate on the Tamzin RFA

Unread post by Beeblebrox » Tue Jun 21, 2022 7:40 pm

Scorpions13256 wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 6:58 pm
Beeblebrox wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 6:38 pm
Scorpions13256 wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:32 am


I tend to prefer people like Rob Portman or Mike DeWine.
I left Ohio some 23 years ago, but even now the mere mention of DeWine.... :noooo:

You support the guy who said denying gay people the right to get married doesn't actually deny anyone anything important, an argument so bad, so hateful, that the Supreme Court laughed in his face and legalized same-sex marriage nationawide over it.

Even if you agree with that hateful opinion, he did s shitty job arguing it.

Portman actually bought a house on the street I grew up on, tore down the normal-people house that was there, and built a McMansion and I think that just sums right up what kind of person he is.
I was not aware of that. I support gay marriage because I have yet to hear a sound argument against it. How long ago did he say this? My brother is gay btw.

I still support him because public opinion on the issue is changing fast. If Rob Portman changed his mind, so can DeWine.
By today's standards of Republicans, I concede he's far from the worst. He doesn't appear to be a MAGA cultist, but he was Ohio's Attorney General during Obergefell v. Hodges (T-H-L) and argued that Ohio should not have to acknowledge marriages from outside the state that would not be legal inside the state.

EDIT: I should add that I am 100% certain Ohio has in the past acknowledged the legality of other marriages that would not have been legal under their laws. They are also one of the last states to require that wedding officiants (outside of courthouse weddings) must be affiliated with an established religion. That is why yours truly was ordained by the Universal Life Church (T-H-L).
Last edited by Beeblebrox on Tue Jun 21, 2022 8:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Slate on the Tamzin RFA

Unread post by Mason » Tue Jun 21, 2022 7:51 pm

Scorpions13256 wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 6:58 pm
I was not aware of that. I support gay marriage because I have yet to hear a sound argument against it. How long ago did he say this? My brother is gay btw.

I still support him because public opinion on the issue is changing fast. If Rob Portman changed his mind, so can DeWine.
Now that gay marriage is settled law (for now), most of the GOP heavies in the Midwest have changed their targets from gay people to trans people.

Right now friends of mine are waiting to find out if they will be forced to move out of Ohio. They have a transgender teenager on hormone blockers; the Ohio GOP is looking to make prescribing those a criminal act with HB 454.

I’d like to think DeWine would veto that, but we’ll see, I guess.

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Re: Slate on the Tamzin RFA

Unread post by Midsize Jake » Tue Jun 21, 2022 7:56 pm

The reason the Republicans are currently pushing to eliminate rights for LGBT people is that if Trump runs in 2024, he won't have Mike Pence as his running mate, so they need something else to appeal to the Christian (far) right. They can't point to their higher sense of morality because they have none; they can't point to their actions against pedophiles because the Republican Party is chock-full of pedos; and they also failed to repeal the Johnson Amendment (T-H-L) (something megachurch leaders really wanted in order to facilitate their own enrichment with foreign dark money, far, far beyond their previous wildest dreams). The GOP had roughly the same problem in 2004, and their solution was to do exactly what they're doing now. And Mike DeWine isn't a "maverick" who would go against official party messaging, even if he thought it would help him win.

As for the other thing, well... I'm not quite to point of agreeing with the folks who say "not voting is a vote for fascism," but even so, failure to vote against fascism, just like ignorance of your culture, is not considered cool.

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Re: Slate on the Tamzin RFA

Unread post by Tamzin, reluctantly » Tue Jun 21, 2022 8:47 pm

Midsize Jake wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 7:56 pm
As for the other thing, well... I'm not quite to point of agreeing with the folks who say "not voting is a vote for fascism," but even so, failure to vote against fascism, just like ignorance of your culture, is not considered cool.
If there's one thing this RfA taught me about myself, it's how much I value believing in what you believe in.

I have considerably more respect for a die-hard Trump supporter who'll take the heat that comes with holding that position, than for someone who said "Trump and Hillary/Biden are basically the same, so whatever, I'll stay home."

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Re: Slate on the Tamzin RFA

Unread post by No Ledge » Tue Jun 21, 2022 9:30 pm

I'm not having it with the idea that Sanders supporters who stayed home or voted for Jill Stein were supporting fascism.

My calculation was that Bernie would only have to wait four years to run again rather than eight (at which point he would be too old). And I wanted to send a message loud and clear to the Democratic National Committee. Yes, in hindsight I was playing with fire. But so was the Clinton campaign and all the corporate media in actively giving a megaphone to Trump while ghosting Sanders campaign. No other Republican candidate was given as large a megaphone by the press as Trump was in 2016.

If only the Democrats cared as much about press freedom as the Republicans cared about their guns. Right to free speech is dead with Assange's extradition. Democracy is still under threat to die too (it's closely related to press freedom).

I didn't count on Biden beating Sanders though. I'm one of the tiny minority whose opinion of Biden has actually gone up since he took office (he started from a level just a couple notches above Trump). Warms my heart every time I see him out on the bike trail, though he's a bit of a klutz on a bike. John Kerry should gift him a set of clipless pedals and matching shoes.
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Re: Slate on the Tamzin RFA

Unread post by Bezdomni » Tue Jun 21, 2022 10:37 pm

Stephen Harrison wrote:Due to a production error, the piece also misstated that Tamzin traveled from D.C. to New Jersey to visit her mother; Tamzin’s mother traveled from D.C. to visit her.
Was there an ink spill? :unsure:
Did the screen word-wrapper get jammed? :dubious:
Did Harrison exceed his word limit? :blink:

I'm still puzzled by this. Perhaps since you're here Tamzin you could shed light on this mysterious production error?
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Re: Slate on the Tamzin RFA

Unread post by Tamzin, reluctantly » Wed Jun 22, 2022 12:23 am

Bezdomni wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 10:37 pm
I'm still puzzled by this. Perhaps since you're here Tamzin you could shed light on this mysterious production error?
Yeah, I was actually in touch with Stephen on this. His original wording (in the draft I saw during fact-checking) contained the phrase "Tamzin asked her mother if she could come and visit". A copy-editor tried to resolve the pronoun ambiguity there, but resolved it in the wrong direction. Not sure of the exact minutiae, since the sentence after that did originally say "Her mom agreed, traveling from Washington, D.C. to Cape May County", so I don't know if the copy-editor just missed that bit, or if something had happened in an intervening draft that made it even more ambiguous (e.g. a change to "She agreed"). But one way or the other, there's the nature of your production error for you. :)

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Re: Slate on the Tamzin RFA

Unread post by Vigilant » Wed Jun 22, 2022 1:17 am

Scorpions13256 wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 6:58 pm
Beeblebrox wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 6:38 pm
Scorpions13256 wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:32 am


I tend to prefer people like Rob Portman or Mike DeWine.
I left Ohio some 23 years ago, but even now the mere mention of DeWine.... :noooo:

You support the guy who said denying gay people the right to get married doesn't actually deny anyone anything important, an argument so bad, so hateful, that the Supreme Court laughed in his face and legalized same-sex marriage nationawide over it.

Even if you agree with that hateful opinion, he did s shitty job arguing it.

Portman actually bought a house on the street I grew up on, tore down the normal-people house that was there, and built a McMansion and I think that just sums right up what kind of person he is.
I was not aware of that. I support gay marriage because I have yet to hear a sound argument against it. How long ago did he say this? My brother is gay btw.

I still support him because public opinion on the issue is changing fast. If Rob Portman changed his mind, so can DeWine.
Nobody in my extended family is gay.
I support gay marriage (and gay rights generally) because they are civil rights.
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Re: Slate on the Tamzin RFA

Unread post by Vigilant » Wed Jun 22, 2022 1:18 am

Mason wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 7:51 pm
Scorpions13256 wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 6:58 pm
I was not aware of that. I support gay marriage because I have yet to hear a sound argument against it. How long ago did he say this? My brother is gay btw.

I still support him because public opinion on the issue is changing fast. If Rob Portman changed his mind, so can DeWine.
Now that gay marriage is settled law (for now), most of the GOP heavies in the Midwest have changed their targets from gay people to trans people.

Right now friends of mine are waiting to find out if they will be forced to move out of Ohio. They have a transgender teenager on hormone blockers; the Ohio GOP is looking to make prescribing those a criminal act with HB 454.

I’d like to think DeWine would veto that, but we’ll see, I guess.
I support trans rights for the same reason.
They're civil rights.
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Re: Slate on the Tamzin RFA

Unread post by Vigilant » Wed Jun 22, 2022 1:21 am

Tamzin, reluctantly wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 8:47 pm
Midsize Jake wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 7:56 pm
As for the other thing, well... I'm not quite to point of agreeing with the folks who say "not voting is a vote for fascism," but even so, failure to vote against fascism, just like ignorance of your culture, is not considered cool.
If there's one thing this RfA taught me about myself, it's how much I value believing in what you believe in.

I have considerably more respect for a die-hard Trump supporter who'll take the heat that comes with holding that position, than for someone who said "Trump and Hillary/Biden are basically the same, so whatever, I'll stay home."
I'm pretty far to the left.
I was disgusted by your statement.

You gave the right wing *exactly* what they want.
A perfect soundbite on a plate, to tar everyone on the left with.
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Re: Slate on the Tamzin RFA

Unread post by Vigilant » Wed Jun 22, 2022 1:28 am

No Ledge wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 9:30 pm
I'm not having it with the idea that Sanders supporters who stayed home or voted for Jill Stein were supporting fascism.
We'll have to disagree then.
Jill Stein went to Russia and met with Putin.
No Ledge wrote:My calculation was that Bernie would only have to wait four years to run again rather than eight (at which point he would be too old).
Bernie couldn't win, even if he got the nomination. And I like Bernie and his platform.
No Ledge wrote:And I wanted to send a message loud and clear to the Democratic National Committee.
Your message was read as, "I am a giant toddler who gave us Trump."
I guarantee it.
No Ledge wrote:Yes, in hindsight I was playing with fire. But so was the Clinton campaign and all the corporate media in actively giving a megaphone to Trump while ghosting Sanders campaign.
False equivalency fallacy.
No Ledge wrote:No other Republican candidate was given as large a megaphone by the press as Trump was in 2016.
Different problem than voting for a 'fellow traveler'.
No Ledge wrote:If only the Democrats cared as much about press freedom as the Republicans cared about their guns.
Hear, hear!
No Ledge wrote:Right to free speech is dead with Assange's extradition.
Assange is a Russian _asset_.
I hope he's extradited, prosecuted and spends the rest of his life at ADX Florence.
No Ledge wrote:Democracy is still under threat to die too (it's closely related to press freedom).
I think you mean "consolidated corporate ownership of all media outlets", but I can't be sure.
No Ledge wrote:I didn't count on Biden beating Sanders though.
:rotfl:

The consummate political insider, senator forever, former vice president for 8 years, wasn't going to beat weird uncle Bernie?
Come on...

Personally, I was more of a Elizabeth Warren fan.
When she didn't get the nomination, I didn't decide to pout and stay home though.
No Ledge wrote:I'm one of the tiny minority whose opinion of Biden has actually gone up since he took office (he started from a level just a couple notches above Trump). Warms my heart every time I see him out on the bike trail, though he's a bit of a klutz on a bike. John Kerry should gift him a set of clipless pedals and matching shoes.
He's just a good human.
He was born for this moment in US politics and I just hope it doesn't kill him.
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Re: Slate on the Tamzin RFA

Unread post by Tamzin, reluctantly » Wed Jun 22, 2022 2:44 am

Vigilant wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 1:21 am
Tamzin, reluctantly wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 8:47 pm
Midsize Jake wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 7:56 pm
As for the other thing, well... I'm not quite to point of agreeing with the folks who say "not voting is a vote for fascism," but even so, failure to vote against fascism, just like ignorance of your culture, is not considered cool.
If there's one thing this RfA taught me about myself, it's how much I value believing in what you believe in.

I have considerably more respect for a die-hard Trump supporter who'll take the heat that comes with holding that position, than for someone who said "Trump and Hillary/Biden are basically the same, so whatever, I'll stay home."
I'm pretty far to the left.
I was disgusted by your statement.

You gave the right wing *exactly* what they want.
A perfect soundbite on a plate, to tar everyone on the left with.
You were disgusted? Really? Gosh, I totally missed that in all 70 posts you made during my RfA.

You're the true hero of the RfA, though. I'm not sure I would have made it through the final days of the fiasco without having someone to relentlessly counter-troll without consequence. If not for you, I'd have probably said another dumb thing on-wiki and tipped the balance too far. But who's ever gonna oppose over "She was a bitch on Wikipediocracy to that wannabe troll no one can stand"? Empirically, zero people, it seems.

So, I do sincerely owe you a debt of gratitude. <3

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Re: Slate on the Tamzin RFA

Unread post by Vigilant » Wed Jun 22, 2022 3:57 am

Tamzin, reluctantly wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 2:44 am
Vigilant wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 1:21 am
Tamzin, reluctantly wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 8:47 pm
Midsize Jake wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 7:56 pm
As for the other thing, well... I'm not quite to point of agreeing with the folks who say "not voting is a vote for fascism," but even so, failure to vote against fascism, just like ignorance of your culture, is not considered cool.
If there's one thing this RfA taught me about myself, it's how much I value believing in what you believe in.

I have considerably more respect for a die-hard Trump supporter who'll take the heat that comes with holding that position, than for someone who said "Trump and Hillary/Biden are basically the same, so whatever, I'll stay home."
I'm pretty far to the left.
I was disgusted by your statement.

You gave the right wing *exactly* what they want.
A perfect soundbite on a plate, to tar everyone on the left with.
You were disgusted? Really? Gosh, I totally missed that in all 70 posts you made during my RfA.

You're the true hero of the RfA, though. I'm not sure I would have made it through the final days of the fiasco without having someone to relentlessly counter-troll without consequence. If not for you, I'd have probably said another dumb thing on-wiki and tipped the balance too far. But who's ever gonna oppose over "She was a bitch on Wikipediocracy to that wannabe troll no one can stand"? Empirically, zero people, it seems.

So, I do sincerely owe you a debt of gratitude. <3
en.wp doesn't need more insane people in positions of authority.
They're fully stocked up as it is.
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Re: Slate on the Tamzin RFA

Unread post by Arishok » Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:01 am

I actually was initially quite surprised there was no BADSITES oppose, but it would have been difficult to argue this without Tamzin first suggesting on-wiki that the WPO account was hers, and on the final day of such a contentious and dramatic RfA it’s little surprise that nobody wanted to open that can of worms.

I don’t believe Tamzin made any such on-wiki confirmation until she did so indirectly after the voting period was over.

I equally have little doubt that there are a few editors who would indeed cast a BADSITES oppose vote at RfA if such confirmation had already taken place. It wouldn’t even matter to this bunch what the candidate said here, only that they said anything at all.

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Re: Slate on the Tamzin RFA

Unread post by Tamzin, reluctantly » Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:21 am

Vigilant wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 3:57 am
Tamzin, reluctantly wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 2:44 am
Vigilant wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 1:21 am
Tamzin, reluctantly wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 8:47 pm
Midsize Jake wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 7:56 pm
As for the other thing, well... I'm not quite to point of agreeing with the folks who say "not voting is a vote for fascism," but even so, failure to vote against fascism, just like ignorance of your culture, is not considered cool.
If there's one thing this RfA taught me about myself, it's how much I value believing in what you believe in.

I have considerably more respect for a die-hard Trump supporter who'll take the heat that comes with holding that position, than for someone who said "Trump and Hillary/Biden are basically the same, so whatever, I'll stay home."
I'm pretty far to the left.
I was disgusted by your statement.

You gave the right wing *exactly* what they want.
A perfect soundbite on a plate, to tar everyone on the left with.
You were disgusted? Really? Gosh, I totally missed that in all 70 posts you made during my RfA.

You're the true hero of the RfA, though. I'm not sure I would have made it through the final days of the fiasco without having someone to relentlessly counter-troll without consequence. If not for you, I'd have probably said another dumb thing on-wiki and tipped the balance too far. But who's ever gonna oppose over "She was a bitch on Wikipediocracy to that wannabe troll no one can stand"? Empirically, zero people, it seems.

So, I do sincerely owe you a debt of gratitude. <3
en.wp doesn't need more insane people in positions of authority.
They're fully stocked up as it is.
See, this is the thing about you, Vig, you just suck at trolling. Which is remarkable, given that you spend all your time trying to troll. But this, come on, what is this? You don't go for the "As a fellow leftist" moral-high-ground shit in one post, and then switch to blatant ableism as soon as someone makes you sad. You've gotta be consistent. There's got to be some narrative arc, y'know?

Like, a better response here might have been to frame me as a bully, or as two-faced. With the latter, you could even weave in some subtler commentary on my condition by way of concern-trolling about how this shows I'm not stable enough to be an admin. Poor Tamzin. They behave so inconsistently. Are they okay? Maybe ArbCom should be talking about a compassionate desysop...

I really should not have to be teaching you this shit, man. This is trolling 101.

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Re: Slate on the Tamzin RFA

Unread post by Tamzin, reluctantly » Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:25 am

Arishok wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:01 am
I actually was initially quite surprised there was no BADSITES oppose, but it would have been difficult to argue this without Tamzin first suggesting on-wiki that the WPO account was hers, and on the final day of such a contentious and dramatic RfA it’s little surprise that nobody wanted to open that can of worms.

I don’t believe Tamzin made any such on-wiki confirmation until she did so indirectly after the voting period was over.

I equally have little doubt that there are a few editors who would indeed cast a BADSITES oppose vote at RfA if such confirmation had already taken place. It wouldn’t even matter to this bunch what the candidate said here, only that they said anything at all.
Given that I went to bat during the RfA for someone's right to (completely pointlessly) doxx my Reddit account, I would hope people would have felt comfortable asking if this account is mine.

Can't say I'm upset that no one did, though :D

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Re: Slate on the Tamzin RFA

Unread post by Vigilant » Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:29 am

Tamzin, reluctantly wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:21 am

See, this is the thing about you, Vig, you just suck at trolling. Which is remarkable, given that you spend all your time trying to troll. But this, come on, what is this? You don't go for the "As a fellow leftist" moral-high-ground shit in one post, and then switch to blatant ableism as soon as someone makes you sad. You've gotta be consistent. There's got to be some narrative arc, y'know?

Like, a better response here might have been to frame me as a bully, or as two-faced. With the latter, you could even weave in some subtler commentary on my condition by way of concern-trolling about how this shows I'm not stable enough to be an admin. Poor Tamzin. They behave so inconsistently. Are they okay? Maybe ArbCom should be talking about a compassionate desysop...

I really should not have to be teaching you this shit, man. This is trolling 101.
I'm not trolling.
I'm completely sincere.
You shouldn't be anywhere near any type of private information, advanced privileges, positions of (relative) authority.
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Re: Slate on the Tamzin RFA

Unread post by Tamzin, reluctantly » Wed Jun 22, 2022 6:47 am

Vigilant wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:29 am
I'm not trolling.
I'm completely sincere.
You shouldn't be anywhere near any type of private information, advanced privileges, positions of (relative) authority.
The moment I consider a reality in which you've been sincere in 16 years of widely-ignored and -mocked posts to a community that barely tolerates you about a different community that does not at all tolerate you... Oh my, it's terrifying, Vig. Just the thought of something so depressing, and suddenly I can barely stop my evil alters from typing in Special:Block/Jimbo Wales!
For reasons relating to a mix of the actual competent trolls here and the dominance of certain neurotypes among Wikipedians: That last sentence is a joke. When we block Jimbo, it will be a group decision.
(That last sentence was a joke too.)

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Re: Slate on the Tamzin RFA

Unread post by Vigilant » Wed Jun 22, 2022 6:56 am

Tamzin, reluctantly wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 6:47 am
Vigilant wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:29 am
I'm not trolling.
I'm completely sincere.
You shouldn't be anywhere near any type of private information, advanced privileges, positions of (relative) authority.
The moment I consider a reality in which you've been sincere in 16 years of widely-ignored and -mocked posts to a community that barely tolerates you about a different community that does not at all tolerate you... Oh my, it's terrifying, Vig. Just the thought of something so depressing, and suddenly I can barely stop my evil alters from typing in Special:Block/Jimbo Wales!
For reasons relating to a mix of the actual competent trolls here and the dominance of certain neurotypes among Wikipedians: That last sentence is a joke. When we block Jimbo, it will be a group decision.
(That last sentence was a joke too.)
You're not doing anything to convince me that you aren't insane with this Trumpian style word salad.
Your equally strange attempt at deflection doesn't hold any water either.

You really need to find a better mental health team.
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Re: Slate on the Tamzin RFA

Unread post by Bezdomni » Wed Jun 22, 2022 7:57 am

Tamzin, reluctantly wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 12:23 am
"Tamzin asked her mother if she could come and visit". A copy-editor tried to resolve the pronoun ambiguity there, but resolved it in the wrong direction.
Ah, it was a malfunctioning pronoun. I see.

if she could --> to

Fewer pronouns, less confusion.
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Re: Slate on the Tamzin RFA

Unread post by Midsize Jake » Wed Jun 22, 2022 10:10 am

Tamzin, reluctantly wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 6:47 am
The moment I consider a reality in which you've been sincere in 16 years of widely-ignored and -mocked posts to a community that barely tolerates you about a different community that does not at all tolerate you... Oh my, it's terrifying, Vig.
Why would you think he isn't sincere? I'd say he's in the minority in this case, and attempts to change his mind about it have been largely futile, but personally I've never doubted his sincerity about much of anything, really. And besides, we "barely" tolerate everybody, so he's not special in that regard.

I know we've been over this already, but the fact remains, some people either don't trust modern medicine to deal with, shall we say, "certain problems," or else they don't trust the person with the problem(s) to stay the course therapy-wise. I don't have this distrustful tendency personally, and I'm fairly certain the majority of the regulars here are closer to my way of thinking, but a lot of this is based on personal experience with others — or in some cases, with oneself even. (I know in my case, for example, if I were to suddenly stop taking my 20-kilo dose of angel dust every day, I probably wouldn't be able to do this job at all.)

And while it's nearly always better not to discuss it in the context of specific individuals, there's still an argument to be made that Wikipedia is a big enough deal, in terms of how people all over the world get basic information about nearly everything these days and how important that is to how society works now, that any administrator or administrator candidate has to accept that there's going to be a higher level of scrutiny directed their way than they're used to, or than they would obviously prefer — and that it's at least somewhat reasonable to expect it. It doesn't have to involve a lot of personal sniping, though, which is what I'm afraid this is becoming.

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Re: Slate on the Tamzin RFA

Unread post by Vigilant » Wed Jun 22, 2022 10:18 am

Midsize Jake wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 10:10 am
Tamzin, reluctantly wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 6:47 am
The moment I consider a reality in which you've been sincere in 16 years of widely-ignored and -mocked posts to a community that barely tolerates you about a different community that does not at all tolerate you... Oh my, it's terrifying, Vig.
Why would you think he isn't sincere? I'd say he's in the minority in this case, and attempts to change his mind about it have been largely futile, but personally I've never doubted his sincerity about much of anything, really. And besides, we "barely" tolerate everybody, so he's not special in that regard.

I know we've been over this already, but the fact remains, some people either don't trust modern medicine to deal with, shall we say, "certain problems," or else they don't trust the person with the problem(s) to stay the course therapy-wise. I don't have this distrustful tendency personally, and I'm fairly certain the majority of the regulars here are closer to my way of thinking, but a lot of this is based on personal experience with others — or in some cases, with oneself even. (I know in my case, for example, if I were to suddenly stop taking my 20-kilo dose of angel dust every day, I probably wouldn't be able to do this job at all.)

And while it's nearly always better not to discuss it in the context of specific individuals, there's still an argument to be made that Wikipedia is a big enough deal, in terms of how people all over the world get basic information about nearly everything these days and how important that is to how society works now, that any administrator or administrator candidate has to accept that there's going to be a higher level of scrutiny directed their way than they're used to, or than they would obviously prefer — and that it's at least somewhat reasonable to expect it. It doesn't have to involve a lot of personal sniping, though, which is what I'm afraid this is becoming.
Add in the chronic oversharing, the extremely weird narrative conversations between the personalities, the strange fae-esque reveling in the non-conformism, the barely veiled narcissism (look at meeeeee) stuff and all I see is someone who needs to be far, far away from any positions of 'trust'.

But en.wp seems to have a knack for building themselves delayed deployment sustaining load catastrophes.
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Re: Slate on the Tamzin RFA

Unread post by Jim » Wed Jun 22, 2022 10:50 am

Vigilant wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:29 am
I'm not trolling.
I'm completely sincere.
You shouldn't be anywhere near any type of private information, advanced privileges, positions of (relative) authority.
I didn't vote in the RFA because, well, I didn't feel like it and I'm not a big contributor to the wikisphere any more, so I didn't want to be parachuting in to take possibly controversial stances.

I do, however, still watch - and if I'd have been forced to opine, I might not have been so unequivocal, but I doubt my basic view would have differed much from that.

Vig is not the only one who thinks that there's an eyecatching unsuitability here - so please don't try to palm it off as just one person's view by denigrating their opinion in that way, Tamzin.

It's not a good look for you to do that. Now, or then.

You were lucky to pass, and there are many very good reasons that you perhaps should have failed. Be happy with that, is my advice.

Or keep pushing it and getting it continually relitigated? Up to you, I guess. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Re: Slate on the Tamzin RFA

Unread post by Zoloft » Wed Jun 22, 2022 11:27 am

I am supportive of neurodivergent folks who do their jobs professionally. I also support care for anyone who's struggling. Tamzin, I hope you thrive as an administrator.

My biggest fear is that Wikipedia will chew you up and spit you out. Be self-protective out there.

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Re: Slate on the Tamzin RFA

Unread post by Jim » Wed Jun 22, 2022 11:57 am

Zoloft wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 11:27 am
I hope you thrive as an administrator.

My biggest fear is that Wikipedia will chew you up and spit you out. Be self-protective out there.
Regardless of what I said above, I really do endorse that.

Anroth
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Re: Slate on the Tamzin RFA

Unread post by Anroth » Wed Jun 22, 2022 12:03 pm

I missed the drama. Synopsis?

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Jim
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Location: NSW

Re: Slate on the Tamzin RFA

Unread post by Jim » Wed Jun 22, 2022 12:24 pm

Anroth wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 12:03 pm
I missed the drama. Synopsis?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia ... hip/Tamzin

Link, rather than synopsis, sorry.

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