Kazakhstan

Unread post by **HRIP7** » Wed Dec 19, 2012 4:35 pm

Tengri News: Wikipedia founder to visit Kazakhstan in 2013

Rauan Kenzhekhanuly informed that at the starting point of the project supported by Karim Massimov, the current Head of the President Administration, the number of entries in the Kazakh segment stood at 7 000, with only 4 editors. For the year and half the number of entries has grown 20 times to exceed 200 000, with the number of active editors reaching 230.

Randy from Boise · Unread post by **Randy from Boise** » Wed Dec 19, 2012 4:50 pm

This is a perfect example of what Wikimedia Foundation SHOULD be doing with its funds, instead of buying business cards for prigs in London and funding countless costly crackpot schemes by them and similar sorts around the globe.

RfB

thekohser · Unread post by **thekohser** » Wed Dec 19, 2012 7:47 pm

Helpful tour guide for when Jimbo visits.

EricBarbour · Unread post by **EricBarbour** » Wed Dec 19, 2012 11:05 pm

Just in case you have forgotten (which you evidently have):

During an interview on the PBS News Hour on 10 July 2012, Wales commented that "The Kazakh Wikipedia is doing really well". In fact, there was a massive increase in the number of "active" editors on kk-WP, in June 2011 -- which turned out to be the work of [http://blog.wikimedia.org/2012/07/05/cl ... wikipedia/ one Kazakh] starting an editing club in Almaty. Since then, the editing activity on kk-WP has declined to a tiny fraction of late 2011's editing.

The Devil's Advocate · Unread post by **The Devil's Advocate** » Wed Dec 19, 2012 11:27 pm

Jimbo: Cultural Learnings of Wikipedia for Make Benefit Glorious Nation of Kazakhstan.

DanMurphy · Unread post by **DanMurphy** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 12:08 am

I'm not sure it's ethical to encourage Wikipedia editing by Kazakhs, least not if they want to write about local politics.

The Internet is no longer spared. A 2009 law gave blogs, chat-rooms and other websites the same legal status as the traditional print media, thus making them liable to stand trial for press offences, which are punishable by imprisonment. Prosecution and physical attacks on journalists are common. Journalist Igor Lara was beaten up for writing about a 19-day strike by 10,000 oil-workers in the southwestern town of Zhanaozen and about other oil industry problems. Ramazan Yesergepov, founder and editor of the weekly Alma-Ata-Info, remains in prison. Power struggles inside the regime continue to take their toll on the media. The country's most popular blog platform, for example, was closed in 2008 after the president's disgraced former son-in-law used it to launch his own online newspaper.

RSF deemed the situation to have worsened dramatically in 2011.

Some twenty websites deemed “extremist” were blocked on August 20, 2011 by order of a district court in Astana (the capital), which ruled that the sites were helping to promote “terrorism and religious extremism” and contained “calls commit acts of terrorism and to manufacture explosive devices.” Unexpectedly, those blocked sites include the highly popular Russian-language blog platforms LiveJournal and LiveInternet. The blockage of these platforms seems totally unfounded, since much of the banned content has nothing to do with the terms of the decision. The latter was denounced by bloggers, notably by means of an online petition.

According to the report “Central Asia: Censorship and Control of the Internet and Other New Media” by the International Partnership for Human Rights coalition, Net filtering is carried out with the assistance of the leading ISP Kazakh Telecom, which controls most of the bandwidth.

The report stresses the lack of transparency of the work done by the “Center for Computer Incidents,” which involves drawing up blacklists of “destructive” websites. A presidential Security Council is already compiling lists of websites that should be blocked. According to this body, 125 websites containing “extremist” elements had been blocked by October 1, 2011. Measures are underway to block 168 more.

The Masimov clan have an unlovely reputation.

Hearings have begun in a libel lawsuit filed by the father of Kazakh Prime Minister Karim Masimov against a human rights defender and media outlets, RFE/RL's Kazakh Service reports.

If Wales is really tangling with the Kazakh government, I don't know whether to laugh at his naivete, or applaud his audacious hypocrisy.

Unread post by **HRIP7** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 1:53 am

DanMurphy wrote:If Wales is really tangling with the Kazakh government, I don't know whether to laugh at his naivete, or applaud his audacious hypocrisy.

That was what I was worried about, too.

the project supported by Karim Massimov, the current Head of the President Administration

What does that mean if a project is "supported" by an administration like the one in Kazakhstan, that seems to have a very shaky grasp of press freedom?

As for Karim Massimov, the country's prime minister, he is also the country's most widely read blogger, according to this Economist article: Press freedom in Kazakhstan: Independent blogging under threat.

COMPARED with his cabinet colleagues, Karim Massimov, Kazakhstan's prime minister, is a digital whizz-kid. When he took the job two years ago he already had his own website. Last month he flaunted both his technical know-how and his flair for self-promotion by emerging as the country's top blogger. He launched his personal blog, as an online forum for citizens to raise their concerns, and ordered his ministers to do the same.

Randy from Boise · Unread post by **Randy from Boise** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:04 am

Dan, you silly shit, don't you see Wikipedia's revolutionary potential???

RfB

DanMurphy · Unread post by **DanMurphy** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:13 am

Randy from Boise wrote:Dan, you silly shit, don't you see Wikipedia's revolutionary potential???

RfB

No. I have been watching naive foreigners participating in the brand-sweetening of dictators since 1993 however. Oh, and I'm also rather expert in press-freedom issues in dictatorships and the risks of online activity.

This is right in my wheelhouse. This is awful. So awful I doubt Wales will go. He can't be this stupid and callous. In his defense, it's just a Kazakh linked (as far as I can tell) outlet making this claim.

Michaeldsuarez · Unread post by **Michaeldsuarez** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:17 am

Randy from Boise wrote:Dan, you silly shit, don't you see Wikipedia's revolutionary potential???

RfB

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:SpringWiki

They don't want wikis specializing in teaching people how to overthrow dictators.

Randy from Boise · Unread post by **Randy from Boise** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:22 am

DanMurphy wrote:
Randy from Boise wrote:Dan, you silly shit, don't you see Wikipedia's revolutionary potential???

RfB
No. I have been watching naive foreigners participating in the brand-sweetening of dictators since 1993 however. Oh, and I'm also rather expert in press-freedom issues in dictatorships and the risks of online activity.

Heeeeeeey, Christian Science Monitor Guy, I am on the other team... I am for the people and against government thugs....

RfB

Unread post by **HRIP7** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:23 am

I've asked Jimbo if he can tell us a little more about this.

lilburne · Unread post by **lilburne** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 7:45 am

HRIP7 wrote:I've asked Jimbo if he can tell us a little more about this.

Suggest he studies the works of Borat before going.

The Joy · Unread post by **The Joy** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 8:50 am

Isn't the president of Kazakhstan more-or-less an authoritarian ruler?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... viser.html

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503543_162- ... 03543.html

http://humanrightsfoundation.org/docume ... ociety.pdf

Is Jimbo going to defend the freedom of speech of Kazakh Wikipedians? Is Jimbo even safe going there if someone vandalizes Nazarbayev's Wikipedia article and decides to get even?

Interestingly, Jimbo is married to Tony Blair's former secretary, Blair is an adviser to the Kazakh government, and Jimbo is visiting Kazakhstan. Relevant connection?

thekohser · Unread post by **thekohser** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 11:52 am

The Joy wrote:Interestingly, Jimbo is married to Tony Blair's former secretary, Blair is an adviser to the Kazakh government, and Jimbo is visiting Kazakhstan. Relevant connection?

Of course! Not to mention, this connection between Blair and Wales.

By the way, in that cover photo, you can see the island where my wife and I honeymooned, in the background.

Unread post by **HRIP7** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:30 pm

DanMurphy wrote:
Randy from Boise wrote:Dan, you silly shit, don't you see Wikipedia's revolutionary potential???

RfB
No. I have been watching naive foreigners participating in the brand-sweetening of dictators since 1993 however. Oh, and I'm also rather expert in press-freedom issues in dictatorships and the risks of online activity.

This is right in my wheelhouse. This is awful. So awful I doubt Wales will go. He can't be this stupid and callous. In his defense, it's just a Kazakh linked (as far as I can tell) outlet making this claim.

According to Wikipedia, Wales named the Kazakh editor who is driving the state-assisted expansion, and who heads the Kazakh WikiBilim (T-H-L) Foundation, Wikipedian of the Year.

Here is what Wikipedia has to say about Samruk-Kazyna (T-H-L), the company supporting the Kazakh Wikipedia's expansion.

DanMurphy · Unread post by **DanMurphy** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:48 pm

From the Prime Minister's website:

“Kazaksha Wikipedia” project is implemented under the auspices of the Government of Kazakhstan and with the support of Prime Minister Karim Massimov, head of “Wikibilim” public fund Rauan Kenzhekhanuly said in an interview for PM.kz site.

“The Prime Minister expressed his support to the projects on the Kazakh content development.in particular, this is further implementation of “Kazaksha Wikipedia”, Rauan Kenzhekhanuly said.

Mr. Wales, are you ready for your closeup with the authoritarian government you appear to be working with?

DanMurphy · Unread post by **DanMurphy** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:50 pm

HRIP7 wrote:
DanMurphy wrote:
Randy from Boise wrote:Dan, you silly shit, don't you see Wikipedia's revolutionary potential???

RfB
No. I have been watching naive foreigners participating in the brand-sweetening of dictators since 1993 however. Oh, and I'm also rather expert in press-freedom issues in dictatorships and the risks of online activity.

This is right in my wheelhouse. This is awful. So awful I doubt Wales will go. He can't be this stupid and callous. In his defense, it's just a Kazakh linked (as far as I can tell) outlet making this claim.
According to Wikipedia, Wales named the Kazakh editor who is driving the state-assisted expansion, and who heads the Kazakh WikiBilim (T-H-L) Foundation, Wikipedian of the Year.

Here is what Wikipedia has to say about Samruk-Kazyna (T-H-L), the company supporting the Kazakh Wikipedia's expansion.

Samruk Kazyna is the government, and is a key instrument of Kazakhstan's economic oligarchs. Surely that would give a libertarian the willies?

And this is interesting from Wikipedia's own article about Kazakh Wikipedia (T-H-L):

Eventually, the state-supported Samruk Kazyna Foundation sponsored the expansion, with 30 million tenge spent in 2011 for paid editing, digitalization, and author rights transfer.

So Wales crowned a guy who was a Kazakh civil servant, and who's now running the operation with Kazakh government money (including conducting "paid editing") as Wikipedian of the year? No wonder the Wikimedia UK people feel like they've been treated unfairly.

lilburne · Unread post by **lilburne** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:56 pm

DanMurphy wrote: Mr. Wales, are you ready for your closeup with the authoritarian government you appear to be working with?

It sort of reminds one of Cap'n Bob what with the yacht, the finances, and the communist dictators:

http://www.cix.co.uk/~klockstone/maxwell.htm

I wonder how good he is at swimming.

thekohser · Unread post by **thekohser** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 4:31 pm

HRIP7 wrote:According to Wikipedia, Wales named the Kazakh editor who is driving the state-assisted expansion, and who heads the Kazakh WikiBilim (T-H-L) Foundation, Wikipedian of the Year.

Not just according to Wikipedia, but also according to the Wikimedia Foundation.

Randy from Boise · Unread post by **Randy from Boise** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 4:46 pm

Don't take a cold warsey rush-to-judgment view of this, demanding facile denunciations of authoritarian political leaders that won't lead to even the most superficial change. Trust instead the idea that free information ultimately batters down chinese walls...

RfB

DanMurphy · Unread post by **DanMurphy** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 4:56 pm

And just a little background information for all the Randy's out there (not just our Randy, though he is practically the type-case).

President Nursultan Nazarbayev won his last election with 95 percent of the vote. How his people must love him. (He is a dictator).

Ex-Prime Minister Karim Masimov, the guy most deeply involved in promoting Wikipedia and getting the government's hooks into it, was one Nazarbayev's closest aides and confidants, and owes his political standing entirely to the president (who appointed him PM and retained him longer than any other). Nazabayev removed Masimov from the premiership in Sept., and appointed him his personal chief of staff.

In the words of the above-linked Reuters article:

Nazarbayev, 72, dominates political life and tolerates little dissent in a country of 17 million people stretching from the Caspian Sea to China. A member of the last Soviet Politburo, he has ruled Kazakhstan since before independence in 1991.

In a since deleted (it seems, I can only access the cache) post on the Kazakh "Wikibilim Foundation" website, I find the following:

In May 2011 the initiative group of wikipedians launched a non-profit organization to run this project. After negotiating with Wikimedia Foundation Inc WikiBilim obtained permission to use Wikimedia Trademark for public campaigns in Kazakhstan.

During the press-conference on 16th of June 2011 Head of Samuryk-Kazyna National Foundation Mr. Timur Kulibayev announced their intention to support Kazakh Wikipedia and WikiBilim Public Foundation. In order to increase quality of articles and the number of active editors Samuryk-Kazyna and Nokia Kazakhstan launched two wiki-contests. SMK granted 100 laptops to Wiki contest winners for 100 people who are to write 100 articles each within a given time frame and a satisfactory level. Nokia Kazakhstan granted 50 mobile phones to authors of featured articles. The contest is still running at present..

The Chief Editor of Kazakh National Encyclopedia Mr. Bauirzhan Zhakyp donated all paper-based content of Kazakh encyclopedia, Encyclopedia for children, Nature of Kazakhstan and Writers of Kazakhstan to WikiBilim under the license of Creative Commons-BY-SA 3.0.

Who is Timur Kulibayev? Not only is he the head of the government's personal investment vehicle, but he's the billionaire son of President Nazarbayev. Until fairly recently, Kulibayev and Masimov were as thick as thieves, but had some kind of falling out over distribution of what's politely called "rents."

The "Kazakh National Encyclopedia" bit is interesting. I am going to take a wild shot in the dark and say this is a classic example of Soviet-style encyclo-propaganda. Another wild guess is that a lot of the new articles on Kazakh Wikipedia were simply copied from the "Kazakh National Encyclopedia."

If these two guesses are correct much of the "new" content that Wales praised Rauan Kenzhekhanuly for generating is in fact direct propaganda in support of a dictatorship.

Well-played, Mr. Nazarbayev!

SB_Johnny · Unread post by **SB_Johnny** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 5:08 pm

DanMurphy wrote:Well-played, Mr. Nazarbayev!

Well of course if you're going to build a Potempkin village to show off how wonderful online freedom can be, you could have no better mayor than Jimmy Wales. There's probably very affordable castles there too!

DanMurphy · Unread post by **DanMurphy** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 5:10 pm

Yes, according to Wikipedian of the Year Kenzhekhanuly most of the Kazakh Wikipedia's expansion was thanks to copying in articles from the Kazakh National Encyclopedia, which the government generously donated under a free license:

Right now we are working for one and a half years. Our mission is to develop Kazakh language content in the internet, so we started with the Kazakh Wikipedia project. We approached the national encyclopedia, which is run by the government. We have a 10-volume pretty good encyclopedia. We convinced them that the whole Kazakh national encyclopedia should be online for free…. We organized a community to upload the encyclopedia into Wikipedia. It gave us something around 40,000 articles....

Central Asia aint my bag. I will ask a few people who might know the language and have an opinion on the Kazakh National Encyclopedia. I'll also point out that no one at the Wikimedia Foundation has the language or other skills need to evaluate the quality of what has been uploaded to their Kazakh venture.

thekohser · Unread post by **thekohser** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 5:19 pm

Randy from Boise wrote:Trust instead the idea that free information ultimately batters down chinese walls...

RfB

Does it also batter down paid editing walls? Because in this instance, that appears to be the case.

DanMurphy · Unread post by **DanMurphy** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 5:25 pm

This is from the application for a Kazakh Wikimedia chapter hosted on Wikimedia's meta website.

WikiBilim PF initiatives have been supported by the Government, Business and Academia.

Kazakh National Encyclopedia “Kazakhstan” – provided all own content under CC licenses.
National Academy of Sciences of the Republic of Kazakhstan – provides content and quality review process.
Ministry of Education and Science provides us organizational support to involve Kazakhstan universities and colleges to Wikimedia projects.
Ministry of Communication and Information provides organizational support to involve IT companies and universities as well as traditional media support.
International IT University – provided technical support, internet access, summer student internship etc.

Hmm... the "National Academy of Sciences of the Republic of Kazakhstan – provides content and quality review process."

Could you imagine the uproar if "content and quality review" processes on the English Wikipedia were outsourced to the US (or UK, etc...) government?

SB_Johnny · Unread post by **SB_Johnny** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 5:43 pm

DanMurphy wrote:This is from the application for a Kazakh Wikimedia chapter hosted on Wikimedia's meta website.

WikiBilim PF initiatives have been supported by the Government, Business and Academia.

Kazakh National Encyclopedia “Kazakhstan” – provided all own content under CC licenses.
National Academy of Sciences of the Republic of Kazakhstan – provides content and quality review process.
Ministry of Education and Science provides us organizational support to involve Kazakhstan universities and colleges to Wikimedia projects.
Ministry of Communication and Information provides organizational support to involve IT companies and universities as well as traditional media support.
International IT University – provided technical support, internet access, summer student internship etc.
Hmm... the "National Academy of Sciences of the Republic of Kazakhstan – provides content and quality review process."

Could you imagine the uproar if "content and quality review" processes on the English Wikipedia were outsourced to the US (or UK, etc...) government?

I'd say that "Ministry of Communication and Information provides organizational support to involve IT companies and universities as well as traditional media support" is more onerous. Presumably their checkusers will, like the president, be easily elected with 95% support.

DanMurphy · Unread post by **DanMurphy** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 6:36 pm

For what it's worth, two Kazakh-speaking researchers recommended by a friend I know and trust, say at a quick glance of a few of the articles cut and pasted from the Kazakh National Encyclopedia, it doesn't look half-bad.

One of them, who's getting his PHD in Central Asian history, had this to say to me on twitter:

Yeah, looking at the pages, this is totally above board. I'd say, Good job,KZ?

Ok, waitaminute -- Wikipedia articles in English are widely bowdlerized. Articles on my subject (history) are generally a joke.

So I would say, Why are you holding Kazakhs to a standard we ourselves can't attain? And it's still free to edit, no?

I am still deeply skeptical.

Randy from Boise · Unread post by **Randy from Boise** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 6:37 pm

thekohser wrote:
Randy from Boise wrote:Trust instead the idea that free information ultimately batters down chinese walls...

RfB
Does it also batter down paid editing walls? Because in this instance, that appears to be the case.

It's a really interesting case, for sure.

Remember this, my friends, it wasn't Ronald Reagan posturing that caused the fall of East Germany, it was West German television.

RfB

EricBarbour · Unread post by **EricBarbour** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 8:21 pm

That's what I expected. It didn't happen until the Kazakh government became involved. And like the 1911 Britannica, it started with
massive plagiarism, albeit government-approved.

Wales will take any freebies wherever he can. Bet he doesn't have any idea how repressive the Nazarbayev regime is,
nor does he much care. Like many other language WPs, this Wikipedia is an instrument of official repression and propaganda.
As long as Jimbo gets his little bottom kissed, he doesn't care.

The Joy · Unread post by **The Joy** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 12:06 am

Randy from Boise wrote:Don't take a cold warsey rush-to-judgment view of this, demanding facile denunciations of authoritarian political leaders that won't lead to even the most superficial change. Trust instead the idea that free information ultimately batters down chinese walls...

...and blood in the streets.

2011 Mangystau riots (T-H-L)

Unread post by **HRIP7** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 1:07 am

The Joy wrote:
Randy from Boise wrote:Don't take a cold warsey rush-to-judgment view of this, demanding facile denunciations of authoritarian political leaders that won't lead to even the most superficial change. Trust instead the idea that free information ultimately batters down chinese walls...

...and blood in the streets.

2011 Mangystau riots (T-H-L)

Well, the Kazakh Wikipedia has an article on that too. Dan, can your mate tell us what it says, and how the Kazakhstan government and president are described generally?

Does the president's biography mention that he is widely seen as a dictator, for example? Does the Kazakh Wikipedia say anything about lack of press freedom in the country?

Cedric · Unread post by **Cedric** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 1:14 am

Randy from Boise wrote:
thekohser wrote:
Randy from Boise wrote:Trust instead the idea that free information ultimately batters down chinese walls...

RfB
Does it also batter down paid editing walls? Because in this instance, that appears to be the case.
It's a really interesting case, for sure.

Remember this, my friends, it wasn't Ronald Reagan posturing that caused the fall of East Germany, it was West German television.

RfB

"West German television"? Like, wow, man.

You were on some pretty heavy drugs back in 1989, weren't you?

DanMurphy · Unread post by **DanMurphy** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 1:18 am

The guy I was dealing with came recommended by a guy I know and respect. But my guy reached his conclusions within about half an hour, and his general attitude was "all Wikipedia stuff is crap. Why are you singling at Kazakh Wikipedia?" He gave me back nothing concrete.

This is another issue in Wikipedia criticism. While many of us have a feel for what Wikipedia articles are "supposed" to look like in the major language Wikipedias, rare indeed will be the guy who speaks Kazakh who has any sort of overview. I got a little semi-hostile ribbing on twitter about my association with "Wikipedia" from people who didn't know what this forum is about. I think I've found a guy who speaks Kazakh and is relatively clued in about this kind of thing, and will ask him that kind of question. Just a scan of the president's page in the language, judging by the structure and the size, gave me the feeling that very, very little of it is about anything that might be labeled "critical." (mostly lists of posts held it seemed).

DanMurphy · Unread post by **DanMurphy** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 1:23 am

Cedric wrote:
Randy from Boise wrote:
thekohser wrote:
Randy from Boise wrote:Trust instead the idea that free information ultimately batters down chinese walls...

RfB
Does it also batter down paid editing walls? Because in this instance, that appears to be the case.
It's a really interesting case, for sure.

Remember this, my friends, it wasn't Ronald Reagan posturing that caused the fall of East Germany, it was West German television.

RfB
"West German television"? Like, wow, man.

You were on some pretty heavy drugs back in 1989, weren't you?

Yes, Randy's comment is utter nonsense. He is out of his depth, but filled with confidence and self-belief. He is a "Wikipedian."

Unread post by **HRIP7** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 1:32 am

DanMurphy wrote:Yes, according to Wikipedian of the Year Kenzhekhanuly most of the Kazakh Wikipedia's expansion was thanks to copying in articles from the Kazakh National Encyclopedia, which the government generously donated under a free license:

Right now we are working for one and a half years. Our mission is to develop Kazakh language content in the internet, so we started with the Kazakh Wikipedia project. We approached the national encyclopedia, which is run by the government. We have a 10-volume pretty good encyclopedia. We convinced them that the whole Kazakh national encyclopedia should be online for free…. We organized a community to upload the encyclopedia into Wikipedia. It gave us something around 40,000 articles....
Central Asia aint my bag. I will ask a few people who might know the language and have an opinion on the Kazakh National Encyclopedia. I'll also point out that no one at the Wikimedia Foundation has the language or other skills need to evaluate the quality of what has been uploaded to their Kazakh venture.

Did you notice this, in the same article?

Next up for Kenzhekhanuly’s Kazakhstan-based WikiBilim Foundation: Kazakh Google Translate.

SB_Johnny · Unread post by **SB_Johnny** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 1:39 am

HRIP7 wrote:
DanMurphy wrote:Yes, according to Wikipedian of the Year Kenzhekhanuly most of the Kazakh Wikipedia's expansion was thanks to copying in articles from the Kazakh National Encyclopedia, which the government generously donated under a free license:

Right now we are working for one and a half years. Our mission is to develop Kazakh language content in the internet, so we started with the Kazakh Wikipedia project. We approached the national encyclopedia, which is run by the government. We have a 10-volume pretty good encyclopedia. We convinced them that the whole Kazakh national encyclopedia should be online for free…. We organized a community to upload the encyclopedia into Wikipedia. It gave us something around 40,000 articles....
Central Asia aint my bag. I will ask a few people who might know the language and have an opinion on the Kazakh National Encyclopedia. I'll also point out that no one at the Wikimedia Foundation has the language or other skills need to evaluate the quality of what has been uploaded to their Kazakh venture.
Did you notice this, in the same article?
Next up for Kenzhekhanuly’s Kazakhstan-based WikiBilim Foundation: Kazakh Google Translate.

Looks like that will come in handy for bot-generating articles once Dr. Blofeld gets through with things on the en side:

I've actually been eyeing up Kazakhstan for some time to better cover some of its small towns which are missing enmasse. Although the main towns have population data from old Soviet censuses, I've been looking forward to some up to do population data on every village/ Would be good if the Kazakh government could do a census and publish data for all villages and then work with individuals to get articles put on Kazakh wiki with data and then on English wikipedia.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 18:44, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Randy from Boise · Unread post by **Randy from Boise** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 8:19 am

DanMurphy wrote:
Cedric wrote:
Randy from Boise wrote: Remember this, my friends, it wasn't Ronald Reagan posturing that caused the fall of East Germany, it was West German television.

RfB
"West German television"? Like, wow, man.

You were on some pretty heavy drugs back in 1989, weren't you?
Yes, Randy's comment is utter nonsense. He is out of his depth, but filled with confidence and self-belief. He is a "Wikipedian."

Of course, you were watching Fox News and you believed the bullshit... Or working for the Christian Science Monitor and writing it...

1. Wayne C. Bartee, A Time to Speak Out: The Leipzig Citizen Protests and the Fall of East Germany. (Praeger, 2009):

"East Germans could see every day on television the prosperity and greater freedoms enjoyed by fellow Germans..."

2. David M. Keithly, The Collapse of East German Communism: The Year the Wall Came Down, 1989. (Praeger,

"GDR leaders found themselves caught vicelike in the grip of continuing liberal influence from the West on the one side, and the pressure of glasnost and perestroika from the East on the other. Increasingly, the latter became the more immediate and less manageable challenge for the SED. Over the years East German leaders had learned to live with the siren song of decadent capitalism. The party blinked at the prevalent viewing of West German television and the tuning in to Western radio programs. Confinement or expulsion from the country awaited those East Germans who became too enamored of Western ideas or publicly criticized the socialist order...." (pp. 97-98).

"Faint grumblings about the Politburo's inattention to the grave situation were becoming audible from various corners of a party supposedly united behind Honecker. Hans Modrow, the party chief in Dresden and one of the few Gorbachev adherents in the nomenklatura's upper echelon, began insisting upon an investigation into the causes of the widespread dissent. Rebuffed by the party leadership and ignored by the official media, Modrow turned to the Western media to air his views about the need for change. West German television was only too pleased to provide coverage, which was broadcast in the GDR and watched by millions of viewers with considerable interest...." (pg. 154).

3. Reinhart Schönsee and Gerda Lederer, "The Gentle Revolution," Political Psychology, Vol. 12, No. 2 (Jun., 1991) (pp. 309-330)

(From the abstract): "In the totalitarian structure of the GDR, the political system, the sociocultural system, and the economic system formed completely disparate entities, each with its own code of behavior....The initial goal of the revolution was the regaining of the basic right of true free speech, of the freedom of discussion within and between the boundaries of the various GDR systems. However, in a search for leadership, the German historical tradition of authoritarianism took over and the movement continued as a "revolution from above." The people accepted the leadership of the West Germany political parties without ever achieving true communication...." [television being the mechanism. -t.d.]

4. Steven Pfaff, "Collective Identity and Informal Groups in Revolutionary Mobilization: East Germany in 1989," Social Forces (Oxford University Press),
Vol. 75, No. 1 (Sep., 1996) (pp. 91-117).

(From the abstract): "The relatively spontaneous, peaceful revolution that toppled the communist regime cannot be fully explained by the prevailing theories of revolution and collective action.... I suggest a synthetic, historically specific approach in which collective identities are situated with small-scale social networks. The crucial factors in making the revolution possible were shared grievances and the expectation of social solidarity. Though they were politically subordinated, ordinary East Germans expressed grievances and nurtured opposition in small circles of confidants. Reference to collective identities helped to mobilize and frame opposition in East Germany making a swift, unexpected revolution possible once the state began to founder." [Exposure to West German television was a major cause of these collective grievances, in which the distance between societies in terms of economics and freedom of political discourse became crystal clear. -t.d.]

5. Mary Holbrook, "Anatomy of a Dictatorship: Inside the GDR, 1949-1989.'' (Oxford University Press, 1995)

"Hopes and expectations were raised which could not subsequently be met. Two in particular were of importance as far as the broad masses of the East German population were concerned. One had to do with the standard of living, and expectations of economic improvement; the other related to political liberalization, and specifically the possibility of easier travel to the West and greater access to different media products. The hopes which were raised in the early 1970s led to changed behaviour patterns already in the early 1980s; and they were mightily fuelled by the new signals coming from the Soviet Union in the Gorbachev era....

"The increased cultural and human penetration of the GDR after Ostpolitik--the larger numbers of visitors from the West, the massive increase in exposure to Western television and other media--was double- edged in its political implications. On the one hand, it is true that many East Germans now had to view their state as a permanent, internationally recognized entity, and that any end to the division of Germany was now a most unlikely possibility. Unification simply did not seem to be on any realistic political agenda, particularly once the West German CDU came to accept the Social-Liberal coalition's eastern policies. On the other hand, the recognition by the West of the separate existence of an East German state was in part precisely to seek to overcome the barriers to human contact through the Iron Curtain. And this led many East Germans to be both better informed, and to expect continued further improvements in their degrees of freedom and possibilities for contacts with the West." (pp. 145-147)

And so on...

I grow bored.

Suck it.

RfB

DanMurphy · Unread post by **DanMurphy** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 11:05 am

Randy -- Do you have any idea how stupid you make yourself look?

None of those citations support your assertion that "West German television caused the fall of the Berlin wall." You seem to have a binary view of the world, the blinkered peering of a simpleton who thinks he knows better than everyone else. From what I've heard about you, you're too old to grow out of it at this point. Very sad.

Whatever you're trying to insinuate by constantly italicizing and writing in full "Christian Science Monitor" is unclear. But I've seen enough of your crap.

Good bye.

(I mean, really. On top of the historical claim being wrong, he then goes on to extrapolate it thusly: "Free access to television out of the control of the East German state caused the fall of the Berlin Wall. Therefore, the Kazakh Wikipedia, with most of its contents written by the Kazakh government and funded by that government, will bring down the Kazakh government.")

Notvelty · Unread post by **Notvelty** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 12:09 pm

DanMurphy wrote:Randy -- Do you have any idea how stupid you make yourself look?

Meh. Give him a break. We were all a little bit like that when we were 19. Oh, how I thought Communism would save us all. Man, how my Che shirt rocked out to the tune of blithering nonsense.

Unread post by **HRIP7** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 2:47 pm

Some more background on WikiBilim is available in Meta; apart from their upcoming work for Google Translate, they are also active for Creative Commons:

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:W ... nce/Report

WikiBilim Public Foundation - is a nonprofit organization operating in Kazakhstan. The mission of organization is developing and promoting educational content in Kazakh language. WikiBilim has Trademark License Agreement with Wikimedia Foundation till the 1st of January, 2013. And also acting as the local affiliate team of Creative Commons Europe in Kazakhstan.

Photographs on the page include Murat Abenov, a member of the Kazakh parliament recently appointed Deputy Minister of Education and Science.

Unread post by **HRIP7** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 2:52 pm

Things are livening up on Jimbo's talk page.

For those of us not well versed in bizarro conspiracy theories, can you please explain what the hell that is supposed to mean?--Jimbo Wales (talk) 07:34, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

Sure. Here is a Telegraph article for example, which describes oil-rich Kazakhstan as a "post-Soviet human rights desert" and wonders, just like the Guardian article above, just what on earth Tony Blair is doing lending credibility to a regime like that. It also points out that there is an entire circle of figures around Tony Blair who have joined him in this endeavour:
It's not just Blair but some of his closest confidants who are working in Kazakhstan: Alastair Campbell has been spotted by the FT flying back from the capital Astana, Jonathan Powell (appropriately the author of a book on Machiavelli) is also apparently involved. Former BAE systems Chair Sir Richard Evans is now Chairman of the state enterprise Samruk, worth a staggering £50 billion that in turn has hired Lord Mandelson for speeches.
It so happens that it was widely reported in the media (including the article linked above) that some of these selfsame people were prominent guests at your recent wedding.

Now, given Kazakhstan's human rights record, it seems incomprehensible to me why the Kazakhstan government should be welcome to finance the development of the Kazakh Wikipedia (which to a significant extent consists in paid editors transferring the content of the state-published Kazakh Encyclopedia to the Kazakh Wikipedia) – especially given the fact that recent fundraising messages stated that "We take no money from governments".

It is incomprehensible to me why the National Academy of Sciences of the Republic of Kazakhstan, a state widely described as a dictatorship, with a President that has been in power for 22 years, and keeps getting re-elected with 95% of the popular vote, should provide a "content and quality review process" for the Kazakh Wikipedia. Is there any other Wikipedia where a national government entity fulfils this sort of function?

What is even more bizarre is that you declare the person leading that effort Wikipedian of the Year, as that would imply that Kazakhstan is a model to be followed for the Wikimedia movement. Now, it is clear that the Kazakhstan government uses its involvement in Wikipedia and the "Wikipedian of the Year" title in its PR work. Tony Blair and his former spin doctor Alastair Campbell – both of whom reported in the media to be part of your social circle (see e.g. [1], [2]) – are accused by papers across the political spectrum of lending credibility to a post-Soviet dictatorship. When faced with otherwise incomprehensible actions – why would Wikipedia want to lend credibility to a dictatorship with such a poor record on press freedom and human rights? why would Wikipedia want to accord such a state a role in the "content and quality review process" for one of its projects? why would Wikipedia hold up such an arrangement as a model? – it is a quite natural tendency to somehow try and make sense of them. Andreas JN466 14:26, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

Unread post by **HRIP7** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 3:50 pm

... and now he's hatted the discussion, with the following comment:

I'm closing this discussion because it has reached the point of the absurd. I have responded to the last comments which were made, so participants and other interested parties can look at that. But I'm going to insist that this discussion, if re-opened, be premised on "Assume Good Faith". To avoid an edit conflict I'm going to stop here but I'll write more in a minute.

My position on freedom of speech is very well known and quite clear. It applies worldwide, as I regard the freedom of expression as a fundamental human right. I have always fought for freedom of speech and will continue to do so.

My position on working with companies and organization in difficult jurisdictions is, I think, thoughtful and nuanced. To my knowledge, the Foundation's position is more or less the same. It is entirely possible that we would end up disagreeing on some specific issue, but in all the cases that have come up so far, we have not had that problem. And I rather expect any disagreements to lie in borderline cases.

In Kazakhstan, there is a great group of volunteer editors - just like you - who are working in a nonpolitical way with their own government to transition an older encyclopedia into Wikipedia, as well as to recruit quality volunteers. Like many people, I have concerns about potential problems, but so far I have been pleased with what I have seen.

When I go to Kazakhstan, I will do the same thing that I do everywhere I go: I will speak with the highest officials who will meet with me and try to convince them to respect the fundamental human right of freedom of expression. I will speak to the media, both in that country, but also outside that country (particularly dissident press if it exists elsewhere) about the issue. I will meet with ordinary Wikipedians and ask them with the situation is (with the help of a professional translator or fluently bilingual trusted Wikipedian if my advance research suggests it is necessary, which I think is true in Kazakhstan).

I think my approach is the right approach, but I also think there are legitimate questions that could be asked. I often ask them of myself. When I went to Saudi Arabia, I spoke openly about freedom of speech and human rights - particularly the rights of women - and told an all-male audience that it was offensive that women were excluded from the meeting. (They were in the next room listening in!) In this case, I deeply regret having been in that situation in the first place (I did not realize the audience would be totally segregated in that way), and if I am invited again to Saudi Arabia I will insist on different arrangements being made or I won't do a public lecture.

The part of this discussion that veered into the absurd was this, for those who didn't read it. One commenter raised the question of Tony Blair's consulting in Kazakhstan and him attending my wedding. That's just totally weird and irrelevant. I have nothing to do with his consulting in Kazakhstan, and I have many political (and religious) disagreements with him, which I'm quite open about. I have lots of friends, many from difficult countries, many who are politicians, and I don't necessarily agree with everything they say (nor do they agree with me). But frankly, my personal life has absolutely nothing to do with Kazakhstan!--[[User:Jimbo Wales|Jimbo Wales]] ([[User talk:Jimbo Wales#top|talk]]) 15:46, 21 December 2012 (UTC)}}

DanMurphy · Unread post by **DanMurphy** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 3:52 pm

Mr. Wales has hatted the discussion with the following note, in part:

I'm closing this discussion because it has reached the point of the absurd. I have responded to the last comments which were made, so participants and other interested parties can look at that. But I'm going to insist that this discussion, if re-opened, be premised on "Assume Good Faith". To avoid an edit conflict I'm going to stop here but I'll write more in a minute.

Inside the closed discussion he has written:

The Wikimedia Foundation has zero collaboration with the government of Kazakhstan. Wikibilim is a totally independent organization. And it is absolutely wrong to say that I am "helping the Kazakh regime whitewash its image". I am a firm and strong critic. At the same time, I'm excited by the work of volunteers, and I believe - very strongly - that an open and independent Wikipedia will be the death knell for tyranny in places like Kazakhstan. Perhaps I'm wrong, but it is absolutely silly to suggest that I'm in any way actively supporting tyrants.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:33, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

The following facts had been established before he wrote the above: That Wikibilim is funded largely by the Kazakh government's sovereign wealth fund, that it says "paid editing" is conducted at the Kazakh Wikipedia with this money, that at least 40,000 of the Kazakh Wikipedia's articles were lifted directly from the government's own Kazakh National Encyclopedia, and that the government's National Academy of Sciences has been conducting "content and quality review" of the Kazakh Wikipedia's contents.

He also doesn't seem to understand the idea that involvement with such governments, even when made with the best of intentions, can be in turn used by those governments to polish their own images.

Randy from Boise · Unread post by **Randy from Boise** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 4:19 pm

East Germany fell because it could not deliver the bacon in a side by side comparison with West Germany, a fact which everybody — everybody — knew because they watched West German television every night. They absorbed political ideas and became more observant of official lies. They were well aware that their consumer products were shitty, their automobiles were blue-smoke-puffing pieces of trash, their economy was a mess, their environment was polluted, their culture was stilted, a clique of political crooks at the top hogged all the fineries of life, and a disgusting secret police spy system was pervasive...

When the tide turned in Moscow away from the bureaucratic-command system, the East German regime didn't have a social basis of support. It fell in a "gentle revolution."

I italicize Christian Science Monitor because it is the name of the shitty mainstream media publication you have said elsewhere that you work for...

Now, how does any of this relate to Wikipedia?

Jimmy Wales should not run to Almaty and put on his Ronald Reagan pants and say "Mr. Nazarbaev.... TEAR DOWN THIS WALL!" That would be history repeating itself where it was farce the first time around... Rather, he should say something like, "Wow, this is a great city. I look forward to more and more Kazakh-speaking people working with Wikipedia and learning and teaching others more things about the world."

Information can be revolutionizing. Political posturing is not.

RfB

Unread post by **HRIP7** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 4:35 pm

Is it just me, or is the Kazakhstan (T-H-L) article a complete whitewash?

The word "dictator[ship]" is not even mentioned, in stark contrast to world press writings about the country.

Randy from Boise · Unread post by **Randy from Boise** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 4:36 pm

The Wikimedia Foundation has zero collaboration with the government of Kazakhstan. Wikibilim is a totally independent organization. And it is absolutely wrong to say that I am "helping the Kazakh regime whitewash its image". I am a firm and strong critic. At the same time, I'm excited by the work of volunteers, and I believe - very strongly - that an open and independent Wikipedia will be the death knell for tyranny in places like Kazakhstan. Perhaps I'm wrong, but it is absolutely silly to suggest that I'm in any way actively supporting tyrants.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:33, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

Mr. Wales overstates it a bit, but he's basically on target about the role of WP in the country...

As I mentioned to Mr. Kohs above: it's indeed a very interesting case.

I'm 100% okay with the Kazakh government helping the Kazakh wikipedia obtain critical mass as a go-to information source among Kazakh-speaking people through subsidized editing.

We all know how simple it is to maintain the content of Wikipedia articles in unchanged form, don't we?

RfB

Randy from Boise · Unread post by **Randy from Boise** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 4:39 pm

HRIP7 wrote:Is it just me, or is the Kazakhstan (T-H-L) article a complete whitewash?

The word "dictator[ship]" is not even mentioned, in stark contrast to world press writings about the country.

That would be incorrect:

Soviet repression of the traditional elite, along with forced collectivization in the late 1920s–1930s, brought mass hunger and led to unrest (see also: Soviet famine of 1932–1933).[20][21] Between 1926 and 1939, the Kazakh population declined by 22% due to starvation and mass emigration. Estimates today suggest that the population of Kazakhstan would be closer to 20 million if there had been no starvation or migration of Kazakhs.

That's the money line.

RfB

Unread post by **Zoloft** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 4:46 pm

Randy from Boise wrote:East Germany fell because ...

it could not deliver the bacon in a side by side comparison with West Germany, a fact which everybody — everybody — knew because they watched West German television every night. They absorbed political ideas and became more observant of official lies. They were well aware that their consumer products were shitty, their automobiles were blue-smoke-puffing pieces of trash, their economy was a mess, their environment was polluted, their culture was stilted, a clique of political crooks at the top hogged all the fineries of life, and a disgusting secret police spy system was pervasive...

When the tide turned in Moscow away from the bureaucratic-command system, the East German regime didn't have a social basis of support. It fell in a "gentle revolution."

...

It's more complicated than that. But it can be more complicated in the Off Topic subforum.

Randy from Boise wrote:I italicize Christian Science Monitor because it is the name of the shitty mainstream media publication you have said elsewhere that you work for...

Italicizing newspaper names is fine, and almost standard in articles. People are not used to it here on the shitty Internet forum that you post for, however.

Randy from Boise wrote:Now, how does any of this relate to Wikipedia?

Jimmy Wales should not run to Almaty and put on his Ronald Reagan pants and say "Mr. Nazarbaev.... TEAR DOWN THIS WALL!" That would be history repeating itself where it was farce the first time around... Rather, he should say something like, "Wow, this is a great city. I look forward to more and more Kazakh-speaking people working with Wikipedia and learning and teaching others more things about the world."

Information can be revolutionizing. Political posturing is not.

This is the part of your post that's on topic. Bravo.

Unread post by **HRIP7** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 5:07 pm

Randy from Boise wrote:
HRIP7 wrote:Is it just me, or is the Kazakhstan (T-H-L) article a complete whitewash?

The word "dictator[ship]" is not even mentioned, in stark contrast to world press writings about the country.

That would be incorrect:

Soviet repression of the traditional elite, along with forced collectivization in the late 1920s–1930s, brought mass hunger and led to unrest (see also: Soviet famine of 1932–1933).[20][21] Between 1926 and 1939, the Kazakh population declined by 22% due to starvation and mass emigration. Estimates today suggest that the population of Kazakhstan would be closer to 20 million if there had been no starvation or migration of Kazakhs.
That's the money line.

RfB

See article in The Atlantic from January of this year:

Kazakhstan's Pricey, Sometimes Shady International Re-Branding Effort

[...]

Web records indicate that Portland and at least one other firm, Media Consulta, appeared to tinker with Wikipedia entries concerning Kazakhstan and its president, Nursultan Nazarbayev.

Wikipedia compiles a list of all changes made to the content of its pages. The IP address or user names of individuals who make edits are recorded, and it is possible to compare "before" and "after" versions of the pages. Users identified only by IP addresses are listed as frequent editors on a number of Kazakhstan-related Wikipedia entries. But those same IP addresses can be traced, using publicly available means, and they appear to be linked with Portland and Media Consulta.

An individual working from an IP address with apparent links to Media Consulta inserted new sections in President Nazarbayev's Wikipedia page, entitled "Dialogue Between Religions" and "Preventing Global Nuclear Threats." In all, the same IP address is linked to four changes - made May 6, 2010 -- to Kazakhstan's Wikpedia page, and four changes to Nazarbayev's page. An additional four changes were made to the Kazakhstan entry on September 30 and October 7 in 2010.

Nazarbayev's page was edited twice on September 30, 2010, and the Kazakhgate entry was edited four times from September 30-October 7, 2010.

Similarly, an IP address with a link to Portland was the source of changes to the Wikipedia entries for BTA Bank and for Mukhtar Ablyazov, the former BTA chairman, who is accused of defrauding the bank of billions of dollars.

BTA bank and Ablyazov are currently locked in a legal battle playing out in a London court. The case is so complex that it could drag on until 2013 and there is no guarantee that BTA will be able to recover any money, despite $172 million being spent in 2011 on "legal proceedings and the overall recovery process." The Kazakhstani government, via its Samruk Kazyna sovereign wealth fund, controls over 80 percent of the Bank's shares.