Justapedia

[orangepi]

Someone (under the cover of an anonymous IP address) is whining about "Justapedia" (link) at ANI. Although it seems the flood of attention has crashed their servers ...

[Giraffe Stapler]

Someone (under the cover of an anonymous IP address) is whining about "Justapedia" (link) at ANI. Although it seems the flood of attention has crashed their servers ...

Atsme AKA Betty Wills is involved in this. Her Earthwave Society is funding it and she posted their video on her YouTube channel.

Earthwave Society
November 5 at 9:38 AM ·
We are proud to be the fiscal sponsors of Justapedia.org and wish them well in their worthy cause!

[AndyTheGrump]

I looked at Jusapedia before it crashed. Someone had vandalised their front page, and 'recent changes' seemed to consist entirely of a bot creating user pages for fake accounts. Not a good start...

[Giraffe Stapler]

MODS: Perhaps we should move the Justapedia stuff to its own thread? It seems likely to spill over into on-wiki drama if nothing else.

[AndyTheGrump]

MODS: Perhaps we should move the Justapedia stuff to its own thread? It seems likely to spill over into on-wiki drama if nothing else.

Somebody is clearly trying to create on-Wiki drama about it. Can't really see why, since there is absolutely nothing about this project that makes it any different from any previous attempt to fork Wikipedia. It'll fail for all the same reasons that the others have, without the need for drama...

[Midsize Jake]

It seems likely to spill over into on-wiki drama if nothing else.

Is there anything beyond the ANI thread from yesterday? That doesn't seem to be going anywhere at the moment (indeed, they've "closed" it), but I could easily be missing whatever-it-is. And I'm still seeing nothing from justapedia.org itself yet, though it's Sunday so maybe they're all off watching Red Zone.

[AndyTheGrump]

There was this link on the Village pump (policy). Got nowhere, since it had f-all to do with policy. Someone didn't like being told that moral indignation doesn't overrule Creative Commons licenses...

[Giraffe Stapler]

It seems likely to spill over into on-wiki drama if nothing else.

Is there anything beyond the ANI thread from yesterday? That doesn't seem to be going anywhere at the moment (indeed, they've "closed" it), but I could easily be missing whatever-it-is. And I'm still seeing nothing from justapedia.org itself yet, though it's Sunday so maybe they're all off watching Red Zone.

There was a discussion on Atsme's talk page. If what was claimed about the content in the ANI discussion was true, it won't be long before someone tries to get anyone associated with it topic banned from political articles on Wikipedia. Trouble is, the ANI report comes from an IP with a history of trolling and the site is currently down, so who knows if there's any truth to the claims?

[Giraffe Stapler]

There was this link on the Village pump (policy). Got nowhere, since it had f-all to do with policy. Someone didn't like being told that moral indignation doesn't overrule Creative Commons licenses...

That's a poorly executed attempt to draw attention to Justapedia. The proper approach would have been to post a question for ARBCOM candidates.

[Liltjay08Foo]

Justapedia is still down as we speak.

[iii]

Justapedia is still down as we speak.

But never fear. You can still give them money and read the testimonials from Fox News interviewees and vaccine deniers.

[Midsize Jake]

OK, I've split the thread. Meanwhile, Justapedia is now giving me a 401, asking for authentication. Will it eventually start serving actual pages? Oh, the drama!

Admittedly, this is the sort of drama I would prefer to see on Wikipedia too, given the choice.

[Liltjay08Foo]

Justapedia is still down as we speak.

But never fear. You can still give them money and read the testimonials from Fox News interviewees and vaccine deniers.

The testimonials seems to be randomly picked from those that criticized Wikipedia in general; no mention of Justapedia in all of them.

[Atsme]

Justapedia is still down as we speak.

But never fear. You can still give them money and read the testimonials from Fox News interviewees and vaccine deniers.

Where's this guy, iii? I miss him: ":So there you have it, I think that's where our disagreement lies predominately. I always sorta guessed we were close to being on the same page, but I think sometimes you saw spooks were there were just assholes and sometimes I was just an asshole."

[[user name removed]] 8:57 pm, 14 March 2016, Monday (2 years, 3 months, 17 days ago) (UTC−5)

[iii]

Justapedia is still down as we speak.

But never fear. You can still give them money and read the testimonials from Fox News interviewees and vaccine deniers.

Where's this guy, iii? I miss him: ":So there you have it, I think that's where our disagreement lies predominately. I always sorta guessed we were close to being on the same page, but I think sometimes you saw spooks were there were just assholes and sometimes I was just an asshole."

[[user name removed]] 8:57 pm, 14 March 2016, Monday (2 years, 3 months, 17 days ago) (UTC−5)

Same as I ever was, Atsme. Still the asshole. You still seem to be partial to certain rightwing conspiracy theories. And the world turns.

Just one question: Where is the lie?

[Atsme]

What lie? Please be specific....

[Liltjay08Foo]

What lie? Please be specific....

Oh hi there! When will Justapedia be released? How's the process of copying all English Wikipedia contents. I would like to sign up for an early access.

[iii]

Just one question: Where is the lie?

What lie? Please be specific....

[Giraffe Stapler]

In a Twitter thread about the disputed Holocaust articles, the Justapedia Foundation says it is taking pre-registrations.

justapedia.foundation - we are pre-registering editors who want to make a change & restore the spirit of objectivity & neutrality. PM your request and valid email addy to us here. Those articles are waiting to be fixed! Let's get busy!

They may wish to rethink this graphic that is on the Justapedia Foundation site:

truthiness.png

I'm not sure that this shows what they think it shows...

[Mason]

John Venn is trefoiling in his grave.

[The Blue Newt]

John Venn is trefoiling in his grave.

John Venn’s Body is Trefoiling in the grave.
John Venn’s Body is Trefoiling in the grave.
John Venn’s Body is Trefoiling in the grave!
‘Cause it’s TRUTH we’re centered on!

FTFY.

[Liltjay08Foo]

They are tentatively slated for a late May or early June launch. Perhaps making June 4th a date as it's quite memorable?

[wiki-reviewer]

The issue with Wikipedia competitors is they tend to not perform in search well. Perhaps due to copypasting too much stuff from existing websites, or perhaps due to manipulation from Google, which has a well-known close-connection with Wikipedia.

Unfortunately, it's a fact that Google ranking is the most important thing for a generic online encyclopedia, in terms of readership. If it's just for fun though, I wish them the best. I doubt I share Justipedia's overall politics though.

[Liltjay08Foo]

It has gone public earlier today at justapedia.org but no major media coverage yet.

[tinyboxs]

In a Twitter thread about the disputed Holocaust articles, the Justapedia Foundation says it is taking pre-registrations.

justapedia.foundation - we are pre-registering editors who want to make a change & restore the spirit of objectivity & neutrality. PM your request and valid email addy to us here. Those articles are waiting to be fixed! Let's get busy!

They may wish to rethink this graphic that is on the Justapedia Foundation site:
truthiness.png
I'm not sure that this shows what they think it shows...

My best attempt at an interpretation: blue represents truth (yeah I'm not off to a good start), green represents justification, and yellow represents belief. So lies are beliefs that are neither justified nor true, disinformation is a view that has some basis but is not true (and becomes bias when believed in), information has no known basis but happens to be true (and becomes data when believed in), and facts are true and have a basis, and become knowledge when believed in, conforming with the standard tripartite theory of knowledge.

[Giraffe Stapler]

It has gone public earlier today at justapedia.org but no major media coverage yet.

It looks pretty good. Too much like Wikipedia for my taste, but they've made an effort to make it feel a bit friendlier on noticeboards. When I looked, they had 'August 9 in history" (yesterday) on the main page and there was a red link in one of the entries. So, they may be a little early in opening things up to the public, but I assume they will figure things out as they go.

[Midsize Jake]

"Justapedia's article on Fascism strives for objectivity and neutrality, while Wikipedia's article on Fascism may be influenced by systemic bias."

Ehh, no. Justapedia's article on Fascism devotes its entire second paragraph to essentially quote one guy saying the fact that Trump is a fascist is a "misrepresentation."

So, it's basically just another right-wing disinformation project, as we knew all along.

[rnu]

They have a category "Feature Showcase" where they compare a Justapedia article and a Wikipedia article on the same topic: "By comparing two versions of the same topic—one that is neutral and one that is biased—the Showcase aims to raise awareness about the potential pitfalls and consequences of politicized or weaponized information. These comparisons can be both educational and impactful."
Currently the "Showcase" is Fascism: "Justapedia's article on Fascism strives for objectivity and neutrality, while Wikipedia's article on Fascism may be influenced by systemic bias."
The Wikipedia article has a picture of "Benito Mussolini (left) and Adolf Hitler (right), the leaders of Fascist Italy and Nazi Germany, respectively".
The Justipedia article has a "Collage of totalitarian leaders (L to R) Joseph Stalin, Adolf Hitler, Mao Zedong, Benito Mussolini, and Kim Il-sung".
The second paragraph of the Justipedia article:

There have been attempts by media and some scholars to equate nationalism with fascism while discarding its Marxist "anti-capitalist economic, philosophical and political framework."[3] George Friedman opined that in 2016 a number of articles and statements asserted that "fascism is rising in Europe, and that Donald Trump is an American example of fascism." Friedman denounced such beliefs as "a misrepresentation of a very real phenomenon", and that the nation-state is once again becoming the most important part of politics. He went on to say that people simply don't consider multilateral trade treaties and international organizations like the European Union to be in the best interest of their respective countries, and that the idea that fascism is on the rise "derives from a profound misunderstanding of what fascism is." He views it as an attempt to "discredit the resurgence of nationalism and to defend the multinational systems that have dominated the West since World War II."[4]

[rnu]

Justapedia's content originated from Wikipedia and its volunteers, many of whom are also Justapedians dedicated to restoring and maintaining the spirit of objectivity and neutrality that Wikipedia has long since lost.

Active Contributors: 37

Someone should look up "many" in a dictionary.

[Midsize Jake]

Hey, you wrote it up better than I did — I should've waited the extra minute!

[SamX]

Justapedia's content originated from Wikipedia and its volunteers, many of whom are also Justapedians dedicated to restoring and maintaining the spirit of objectivity and neutrality that Wikipedia has long since lost.

Active Contributors: 37

Someone should look up "many" in a dictionary.

Special:ActiveUsers only lists ten. Of those ten, only three have made more than ten actions in the past 30 days.

[casualdejekyll]

There have been attempts by media and some scholars to equate nationalism with fascism while discarding its Marxist "anti-capitalist economic, philosophical and political framework."

"Unbiased" my ass. Fascism is inherently hierarchical and if I have to explain that to somebody than they don't know shit or fuck about fascism. Or Marxism-Leninism, for that matter.

[AndyTheGrump]

I'd rate the prospects of Justapedia ever being a serious competitor to Wikipedia as more or less zero. Not just because Google ranking puts too much of a hurdle in the way of any competitor, but because neither their intended readership nor many potential contributors really want an 'encyclopaedia' anyway. Far too static, and too liable to accidentally highlight the endless inconsistencies in rightist propagandising. When you deal in appeals to emotion, ephemeral social media is the preferred platform. Keep people angry, feed them hate, and don't remind them of what you said last week...

[No Ledge]

"Justapedia's article on Fascism strives for objectivity and neutrality, while Wikipedia's article on Fascism may be influenced by systemic bias."

Ehh, no. Justapedia's article on Fascism devotes its entire second paragraph to essentially quote one guy saying the fact that Trump is a fascist is a "misrepresentation."

So, it's basically just another right-wing disinformation project, as we knew all along.

[Beeblebrox]

"Justapedia's article on Fascism strives for objectivity and neutrality, while Wikipedia's article on Fascism may be influenced by systemic bias."

Ehh, no. Justapedia's article on Fascism devotes its entire second paragraph to essentially quote one guy saying the fact that Trump is a fascist is a "misrepresentation."

So, it's basically just another right-wing disinformation project, as we knew all along.

Wow. That is a great video. He explains it very well. Not that it would convince one single MAGA cultist.

[casualdejekyll]

"Justapedia's article on Fascism strives for objectivity and neutrality, while Wikipedia's article on Fascism may be influenced by systemic bias."

Ehh, no. Justapedia's article on Fascism devotes its entire second paragraph to essentially quote one guy saying the fact that Trump is a fascist is a "misrepresentation."

So, it's basically just another right-wing disinformation project, as we knew all along.

I think it was best said by the YouTuber "Innuendo Studios" -

Whether or not they are fascists in their hearts is a question for historians. At least some percentage of the time, they are doing fascism, and for our purposes that's all we need to know.

[Liltjay08Foo]

Hey, you wrote it up better than I did — I should've waited the extra minute!

Justapedia (at least according to them) was simply pulling forks from Wikipedia as always. The December 21, 2012 version of Wikipedia's article about fascism is here which you can see as more or less as anodyne as Justapedia's version. A product of US political polarization I guess.

[Mason]

It seems that, like many other forks, Justapedia does not import from Wikipedia the list of people who created and edited the article: you are supposed to refer to the article history on Wikipedia.

Thus, whenever an article is deleted on Wikipedia but kept on Justapedia, attribution disappears entirely and the terms of the CC-BY-SA license are broken.

I alerted Larry Sanger to this issue back when he was promoting one of his Wikipedia forks, but he was too busy tweeting Qanon stuff to acknowledge my email.

[The Blue Newt]

"Justapedia's article on Fascism strives for objectivity and neutrality, while Wikipedia's article on Fascism may be influenced by systemic bias."

Ehh, no. Justapedia's article on Fascism devotes its entire second paragraph to essentially quote one guy saying the fact that Trump is a fascist is a "misrepresentation."

So, it's basically just another right-wing disinformation project, as we knew all along.

I think it was best said by the YouTuber "Innuendo Studios" -

Whether or not they are fascists in their hearts is a question for historians. At least some percentage of the time, they are doing fascism, and for our purposes that's all we need to know.

Reich is giving a take on “fascism” that claims Franco, but excludes Mussolini?

Weak sauce word salad.

[tinyboxs]

It's right to call that bit of the lede an example of right wing bias, but not because the view it criticises is in itself correct. It's overemphasising the popularity of a ridiculous view in order to set up a strawman and push some BS right-libertarian POV as the alternative. Trump is just another reactionary populist, though a very successful one.

[The Blue Newt]

Trump is just another reactionary populist, though a very successful one.

No, I don’t think that’s true either, although that is a good description of many Trumpists.

Trump is not himself a Trumpist. He is an egoist, pure and simple.

[rnu]

Trump is just another reactionary populist, though a very successful one.

No, I don’t think that’s true either, although that is a good description of many Trumpists.

Trump is not himself a Trumpist. He is an egoist, pure and simple.

The best argument against the claim that Trump is a fascist is pointing out that fascists are interested in things other than their own personal advantage. Trump is not prinicipled enough to be a true fascist. Of course that doesn't change the fact that he (often) acts like a fascist.

[Liltjay08Foo]

It seems that, like many other forks, Justapedia does not import from Wikipedia the list of people who created and edited the article: you are supposed to refer to the article history on Wikipedia.

Thus, whenever an article is deleted on Wikipedia but kept on Justapedia, attribution disappears entirely and the terms of the CC-BY-SA license are broken.

I alerted Larry Sanger to this issue back when he was promoting one of his Wikipedia forks, but he was too busy tweeting Qanon stuff to acknowledge my email.

It led straight to a dillema. What about those who are IP editors since many people know so well that exposure of IP addresses nowadays is akin to doxxing? How about those out of privacy reasons had elected to courtesy vanish if and since Justapedia attributed all editors early on?

There is a fine print at the CC-BY-SA license stating that:

You do not have to comply with the license for elements of the material in the public domain or where your use is permitted by an applicable exception or limitation.

Additionally it contains a severability clause which means that if Wikipedia sues Justapedia for not attributing all the page histories and editors, and Justapedia successfully challenge that interpretation with privacy rationales for the editors as aforementioned, the court could end up declaring any parts of the provisions to be unenforceable, while enforcing the remaining provisions of the license.

[Giraffe Stapler]

When I looked, they had 'August 9 in history" (yesterday) on the main page and there was a red link in one of the entries.

Still showing "9 August" and I notice that it actually says "9 August in the history". Something ain't right with their set-up. I would send someone a note about this, but I'm not very motivated if they didn't care enough to make sure the date on their main page is right.

[Giraffe Stapler]

Well, that didn't take long. Someone has already been blocked on Justapedia for changing the article about Donald Trump. Or maybe just because they reverted Justme's change to the Wikipedia version. Either way, it seems a bit heavy-handed.

[Liltjay08Foo]

Well, that didn't take long. Someone has already been blocked on Justapedia for changing the article about Donald Trump. Or maybe just because they reverted Justme's change to the Wikipedia version. Either way, it seems a bit heavy-handed.

Perhaps because the editor had touched the Cesar de Paco article by introducing the part which had subjected Wikipedia to a lawsuit in Portugal. They aren't taking chances so they put a preventative block on him.

Although, it's nice to see that instead of templating and standard newbie-biting, there are sincere and handwritten notices for him that it's not okay to do it.

[Liltjay08Foo]

Well, that didn't take long. Someone has already been blocked on Justapedia for changing the article about Donald Trump. Or maybe just because they reverted Justme's change to the Wikipedia version. Either way, it seems a bit heavy-handed.

So instead of CNN, Willy on Wheels the most beloved vandal on Wikipedia for all the time, has found Justapedia!

[Alalch Emis]

AN report, should probably DENY: link

[AndyTheGrump]

AN report, should probably DENY: link

Not even a 'report', in any meaningful sense, since it names nobody, though the IP notified Atsme (T-C-L) with their next post. If she has any sense she'll ignore it.

[Alalch Emis]

How to troll Wikipedia:

- get VTRS access
- make an ideologically colorful fork of Wikipedia
- advertise the fork in a prominent place on Wikipedia to get maximum attention
- have prominent Wikipedia people seemingly problematize forking contrary to one of its foundational principles, and have them publicly contemplate action, at length, on grounds that can't realistically be fully divorced from political factionalism, from almost any outside observer's vantage point
- have VTRS access removed due to not being a valid "voice of Wikipedia"
- spread word how Wikipedia is ideologically motivated, politically biased and part of the "cancel culture"

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