Justapedia

[Atsme]

Andy, I've learned to listen to your good advice...but now and again, I don't see it until after the fact. It's not that I'm "slow", it's that I've stretched myself too thin (unfortunately, not literally, but working on it).

[Banderas22]

I've read this entire thread and I still don't understand how Larry Sanger is involved in Justapedia.

[rnu]

I've read this entire thread and I still don't understand how Larry Sanger is involved in Justapedia.

As far as I can tell he is not involved at all. He is merely mentioned because he made a Wikipedia fork in the past that had the same attribution problem that Justapedia has. By only importing the current versions of articles, the history and with it the list of contributors is dropped. The attribution requirement of the license can still be met by referring to the history on Wikipedia. But once an article gets deleted from Wikipedia that reference breaks and the attribution requirement of the license is no longer met. At that point the article becomes a copyright violation. Wikipedia gives the option of importing articles with their full history to prevent this issue.

[Banderas22]

Oh, okay, I got it.

I just saw there was a dying WP clone and assumed Larry was involved somehow.

Pavlovian reflex, I guess.

[Alexbrn]

I believe Sanger gave encouragement to Justapedia's founders, and has promoted it as something to be included in his Enyclosphere thing. (Whatever happened to that?)

Seems like a lot of trouble to create an entire clone of Wikipedia just to be able to edit the Donald Trump article to impart a slightly more positive spin.

[Giraffe Stapler]

I believe Sanger gave encouragement to Justapedia's founders, and has promoted it as something to be included in his Enyclosphere thing. (Whatever happened to that?)

I'm glad you asked! If you go to Encyclosearch, you can indeed search for something in multiple encyclopedias at the same time. It's not sophisticated. If you search for something, it doesn't give you results in any preferred order, it just spits of Conservapedia followed by Rationalwiki followed by Handwiki etc. The searches seem to be just naive word matching, although maybe that just reflects the searches on each encyclopedia. So that means you can get articles that just contain the search term from some sources before you get the main article from all sources. I believe this was coded up by one of Sanger's kids, so I'm not surprised that it is bare bones functionality. It's better than it was.

Of course it wouldn't be a Larry Sanger production if there wasn't something wacky tacked on. In this case, Sanger is urging people to contribute to the Encyclosphere™ by writing their own articles on Wordpress blogs and submitting them via some plugin. I've been tempted, but I don't want to go through the hassle of getting approved just to troll Sanger.

[tarantino]

There's a new. long piece on Quillette, Introducing Justapedia by Shuichi Tezuka. It's quite critical of wikipedia. Shuichi is a member here but uses another name, and he's not really Japanese.

[Hemiauchenia]

There's a new. long piece on Quillette, Introducing Justapedia by Shuichi Tezuka. It's quite critical of wikipedia. Shuichi is a member here but uses another name, and he's not really Japanese.

To be specific, Shuichi Tezuka is Captain Occam (T-C-L).

[AndyTheGrump]

Um, what?

Betty Wills, with her initial attempts to reform Wikipedia and her subsequent founding of a competitor, has stepped into the role of Martin Luther, who initially tried to stop the Church’s financial abuses via internal Church processes, and went on to become the founder of Protestantism. The initial backlash against Luther’s ideas led to him being excommunicated from the Roman Catholic Church and condemned as an outlaw by his government, but his eventual success provides an image of the type of outcome can be optimistically hoped for in Wills’s case. Not only did Protestantism go on to become one of the major branches of Christianity, but the Roman Catholic Church eventually implemented its own set of internal reforms known as the Counter-reformation, which included better training for priests and an end to the selling of indulgences.

[Hemiauchenia]

Um, what?

Betty Wills, with her initial attempts to reform Wikipedia and her subsequent founding of a competitor, has stepped into the role of Martin Luther, who initially tried to stop the Church’s financial abuses via internal Church processes, and went on to become the founder of Protestantism. The initial backlash against Luther’s ideas led to him being excommunicated from the Roman Catholic Church and condemned as an outlaw by his government, but his eventual success provides an image of the type of outcome can be optimistically hoped for in Wills’s case. Not only did Protestantism go on to become one of the major branches of Christianity, but the Roman Catholic Church eventually implemented its own set of internal reforms known as the Counter-reformation, which included better training for priests and an end to the selling of indulgences.

The only words I think are appropriate to describe this passage are "absurd" and "delusional",

[AndyTheGrump]

Um, what?

Betty Wills, with her initial attempts to reform Wikipedia and her subsequent founding of a competitor, has stepped into the role of Martin Luther, who initially tried to stop the Church’s financial abuses via internal Church processes, and went on to become the founder of Protestantism. The initial backlash against Luther’s ideas led to him being excommunicated from the Roman Catholic Church and condemned as an outlaw by his government, but his eventual success provides an image of the type of outcome can be optimistically hoped for in Wills’s case. Not only did Protestantism go on to become one of the major branches of Christianity, but the Roman Catholic Church eventually implemented its own set of internal reforms known as the Counter-reformation, which included better training for priests and an end to the selling of indulgences.

The only words I think are appropriate to describe this passage are "absurd" and "delusional",

Accompanied with strongly-worded advice to Martina Luther-Wills to stay the heck away from Captain Occam and his deranged Japanese alter ego. Run, Betty, run...

[tarantino]

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... u_are_well

If you have any contact with Shuichi Tezuka, you can tell them [4] and [5]. Sorry for the delay. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:04, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

And you may find Talk:Race_and_intelligence#Removal_of_Quillette_quote mildly interesting. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:12, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

Hi, Gråbergs Gråa Sång, actually, I am a bit under the weather today (fever, cough, etc. - must have caught the lumpuckeroo). I actually don't know Shuichi Tezuka - I answered some interview questions as I've done for WP over the years. Perhaps if they are watching my user page, they will see your comment. Happy editing! Atsme 20:52, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

[Vice Cabal Leader]

And still no Wikipedia article about that fork?

Even more surprising, there is no "list of Wikipedia mirrors" or "list of Wikipedia forks" in mainspace??

I thought navel-gazing here was much better than that...

[andre]

Big Dolores Umbridge energy

[Atsme]

Um, what?

Betty Wills, with her initial attempts to reform Wikipedia and her subsequent founding of a competitor, has stepped into the role of Martin Luther, who initially tried to stop the Church’s financial abuses via internal Church processes, and went on to become the founder of Protestantism. The initial backlash against Luther’s ideas led to him being excommunicated from the Roman Catholic Church and condemned as an outlaw by his government, but his eventual success provides an image of the type of outcome can be optimistically hoped for in Wills’s case. Not only did Protestantism go on to become one of the major branches of Christianity, but the Roman Catholic Church eventually implemented its own set of internal reforms known as the Counter-reformation, which included better training for priests and an end to the selling of indulgences.

The only words I think are appropriate to describe this passage are "absurd" and "delusional",

Accompanied with strongly-worded advice to Martina Luther-Wills to stay the heck away from Captain Occam and his deranged Japanese alter ego. Run, Betty, run...

Ohhh, Andy - you are too funny! I actually do enjoy your humor. I think it is the best side of you, and one I truly do appreciate. Please, never change. (PS: I truly don't know any of these people, but I do appreciate and respect their individual perspectives. "Variety is the spice of life" (not sure who said that, do you know?) Anyway, that's how we learn and grow. As ever, Martina Luther-Wills

[Atsme]

And still no Wikipedia article about that fork?

Even more surprising, there is no "list of Wikipedia mirrors" or "list of Wikipedia forks" in mainspace??

I thought navel-gazing here was much better than that...

When "Navel-gazing" becomes obstructed, it is a clear indication that the belly button requires lint removal.

[Midsize Jake]

I truly don't know any of these people, but I do appreciate and respect their individual perspectives.

As I'm sure you already know, he's referring to your Race and intelligence article and those related to that topic, and if you want anyone to take your website seriously (other than far-right extremist cranks) then you should probably listen to what Mr. Grump is saying.

[Captain Occam]

As I'm sure you already know, he's referring to your Race and intelligence article and those related to that topic, and if you want anyone to take your website seriously (other than far-right extremist cranks) then you should probably listen to what Mr. Grump is saying.

If you've been following the discussion about this issue at RationalWiki, it's becoming increasingly clear that several of these Wikipedia articles have been the subject of a WP:POINTy "social experiment" by Deleet (T-C-L). (And as described here, he also did something similar to these articles at RationalWiki over a span of several years.) Would you consider it a problem for Justapedia to present this topic in a way that removes these attempts by a banned user to subtly mock leftist viewpoints?

EDIT: Since doxxing seems to be considered okay on this forum, this is the Google document that RationalWiki's "CBH" user linked to in his user talk before it was oversighted. If you view that document's version history, you can see who it was created by.

[iii]

As I'm sure you already know, he's referring to your Race and intelligence article and those related to that topic, and if you want anyone to take your website seriously (other than far-right extremist cranks) then you should probably listen to what Mr. Grump is saying.

If you've been following the discussion about this issue at RationalWiki, it's becoming increasingly clear that several of these Wikipedia articles have been the subject of a WP:POINTy "social experiment" by Deleet (T-C-L). (And as described here, he also did something similar to these articles at RationalWiki over a span of several years.) Would you consider it a problem for Justapedia to present this topic in a way that removes these attempts by a banned user to subtly mock leftist viewpoints?

EDIT: Since doxxing seems to be considered okay on this forum, this is the Google document that RationalWiki's "CBH" user linked to in his user talk before it was oversighted. If you view that document's version history, you can see who it was created by.

I have to say, I've become quite fond of this conspiracy theory of yours. When I describe it outside baseball people, they have a laugh riot. Y'all almost got DGG believing it, too!

[Captain Occam]

I have to say, I've become quite fond of this conspiracy theory of yours.

I hope you're aware that you're parroting Deleet/Kirkegaard by calling it that. His usage of that exact term ("conspiracy theories") is actually mentioned in the account's block summary!

[AndyTheGrump]

This apparently pointless wittering on about RationalWiki edit summaries and other esoterica actually serves one useful purpose: to highlight to anyone actually interested in encouraging alternatives to Wikipedia why exactly such projects so often fail. Quite simply, the only potentially-useful (i.e. functionally literate and not entirely batshit crazy) contributors they attract in any numbers are people who are either rejected by Wikipedia for PoV pushing and the like, or who themselves reject it because of its own biases, real or imaginary. And precious few of these individuals are interested in putting in the legwork on creating new content for anything but their own pet subjects, leading to a situation where most of the content is unmodified Wikipedia articles (which potential readers can already read there), along with a smattering of new stuff written by obsessives frequently more concerned with proving Wikipedia wrong, and in demonstrating just how unfairly they have been treated, than with creating content that provides the 'balance' they claim to see missing from Wikipedia. The end result is 90% mirror, 10% grudge. Not something that anyone other than the grudge-topic-supporters are going to read, and accordingly, not something that the Google algorithm is going to take notice of.

[Alexbrn]

... 90% mirror, 10% grudge ...

I think that's a too-generous ratio; it's more 99.99 / 0.01 I think. Another problem is that the mirror is not 'always improving' and gets stale. On Justapedia, Matthew Perry is still alive.

[Giraffe Stapler]

... 90% mirror, 10% grudge ...

I think that's a too-generous ratio; it's more 99.99 / 0.01 I think. Another problem is that the mirror is not 'always improving' and gets stale. On Justapedia, Matthew Perry is still alive.

Which brings me to one of the things I don't understand about most forks - why copy everything? If you don't like Wikipedia's round Earth propaganda and you want to reflect the truth about the Earth being flat, do you really need to have copies of articles on cricket players of the early 1900s? It should be easy enough to pull that article from Wikipedia if anyone searches for it. Fork the stuff you want to fork but mirror the rest.

[Captain Occam]

Another problem is that the mirror is not 'always improving' and gets stale. On Justapedia, Matthew Perry is still alive.

For what it's worth, I've expressed some similar concerns to Atsme in private, including about the people who've died in the past year but who are still described as living people. I'd like to see Justapedia succeed because I think the internet needs the equivalent of a Pepsi to Wikipedia's Coca-Cola, but I don't share her confidence that everything will work out for the site in the end.

She's evidently reading this thread, so I hope she'll give consideration to some of the criticism here, including Giraffe Stapler's suggestion above.

[Alexbrn]

She's evidently reading this thread, so I hope she'll give consideration to some of the criticism here, including Giraffe Stapler's suggestion above.

Perhaps if the only interest is culture-war-adjacent stuff they could limit their Project to entries on relevant topics? The resulting Project could be called Conservapedia or somesuch?

[Giraffe Stapler]

She's evidently reading this thread, so I hope she'll give consideration to some of the criticism here, including Giraffe Stapler's suggestion above.

Perhaps if the only interest is culture-war-adjacent stuff they could limit their Project to entries on relevant topics? The resulting Project could be called Conservapedia or somesuch?

Strangely enough, while Conservapedia doesn't have an article for the actor Matthew Perry, he is mentioned in their entry on Salma Hayek. I'm not sure why, but Hayek is in the category "Homosexual Agenda". Maybe that's just a category that automatically gets added to every article at Conservapedia?

[AndyTheGrump]

...I'm not sure why, but Hayek is in the category "Homosexual Agenda". Maybe that's just a category that automatically gets added to every article at Conservapedia?

Maybe it's because she's Mexican? Foreigners are bad. Homosexuality is bad. Ergo, foreigners are homosexual. Writing for Conservapedia is such a joyful experience...

[rnu]

... 90% mirror, 10% grudge ...

I think that's a too-generous ratio; it's more 99.99 / 0.01 I think. Another problem is that the mirror is not 'always improving' and gets stale. On Justapedia, Matthew Perry is still alive.

Which brings me to one of the things I don't understand about most forks - why copy everything? If you don't like Wikipedia's round Earth propaganda and you want to reflect the truth about the Earth being flat, do you really need to have copies of articles on cricket players of the early 1900s? It should be easy enough to pull that article from Wikipedia if anyone searches for it. Fork the stuff you want to fork but mirror the rest.

I would say don't even mirror the rest, just leave it. The only remotely realistic way to build a sustainable alternative to Wikipedia is to build an alternative limited to one topic area, e.g. American politics, WWII history, astronomy, or you know roads, weather, etc.

[Atsme]

Nah, I don't hold grudges, and I seriously doubt an article that is not immediately updated about a dead celebrity is going to make or break us, but thanks for the heads-up. We truly do appreciate constructive criticism. I'm pretty sure there were lots of issues facing WP a short 3 to 4 months after launching to the public - at least that is what I've heard. Our current focus is on one of our major projects; that being the completion of our data center and installation of our state-of-the-art, climate-controlled condominiums where our Justapedia servers will also be housed. Equally as exciting are the requests for interviews inspired by the attention Justapedia has been getting, and the fact that we are successfully lining up university teams, historians and medical professionals who are eager to help us enhance our articles, and address the biased material we imported. Naturally, we anticipate criticism from those whose political agendas are being challenged, but such responses are to be expected, especially from those receiving large sums of money from the CCP. But you already know about that, so I will end by wishing you all a happy and prosperous New Year!!

[AndyTheGrump]

Nah, I don't hold grudges, and I seriously doubt an article that is not immediately updated about a dead celebrity is going to make or break us, but thanks for the heads-up. We truly do appreciate constructive criticism. I'm pretty sure there were lots of issues facing WP a short 3 to 4 months after launching to the public - at least that is what I've heard. Our current focus is on one of our major projects; that being the completion of our data center and installation of our state-of-the-art, climate-controlled condominiums where our Justapedia servers will also be housed. Equally as exciting are the requests for interviews inspired by the attention Justapedia has been getting, and the fact that we are successfully lining up university teams, historians and medical professionals who are eager to help us enhance our articles, and address the biased material we imported. Naturally, we anticipate criticism from those whose political agendas are being challenged, but such responses are to be expected, especially from those receiving large sums of money from the CCP. But you already know about that, so I will end by wishing you all a happy and prosperous New Year!!

Oh look, the Reds are under the Beds again....

[iii]

Naturally, we anticipate criticism from those whose political agendas are being challenged, but such responses are to be expected, especially from those receiving large sums of money from the CCP.

Oh look, the Reds are under the Beds again....

It surely is a choice quote to use for anyone inquiring about Justapedia.

[Alexbrn]

... an article that is not immediately updated about a dead celebrity is going to make or break us ...

It's not just celebrities, It's also major political figures. For example, Jacques Delors or Silvio Berlusconi.

... lining up university teams, historians and medical professionals ...

About medical content. A big mass of text like Wikipedia needs a certain volume of editors to even start addressing the medical crap that accrues, and Justapedia has baked a certain amount in from its snapshot date. For example, Wikipedia's Teething (T-H-L) article has a lot of problems that will soon be addressed; not so on Justapedia I imagine.

But worse than that, Justapedia seems to be going backwards on medical content. So if we take the crank's favourite wonder drug du jour, ivermectin, it looks like a Justapedia editor has taken a hatchet to Ivermectin during the COVID-19 pandemic to add the misinformation that ivermectin treats epilepsy and cancer, while suppressing the research fraud around this topic and reclassifying the medical knowledge into being just something that is 'contentious'. They seem to have slipped similar changes in on other articles too. On this basis it looks like Justapedia is a great venue for anybody who wants to get some medical misinformation hosted online.

[Atsme]

Naturally, we anticipate criticism from those whose political agendas are being challenged, but such responses are to be expected, especially from those receiving large sums of money from the CCP.

Oh look, the Reds are under the Beds again....

It surely is a choice quote to use for anyone inquiring about Justapedia.

And while you're quoting me, add this WaPo link, and this convenient list of news sources that took CCP money to publish propaganda, including LATimes, Financial Times, TIME Magazine, Foreign Policy Magazine, the Boston Globe, Seattle Times, The NYTimes, and Chicago Tribune. The CCP is steadily buying up America, donating big bucks to charities, and to some of our ivy league universities so they can brainwash all those young impressionable minds how great communism is, and that includes Harvard. Headline: '''Harvard Leads U.S. Colleges That Received $1 Billion From China''' so quote that all you want.

[iii]

Naturally, we anticipate criticism from those whose political agendas are being challenged, but such responses are to be expected, especially from those receiving large sums of money from the CCP.

Oh look, the Reds are under the Beds again....

It surely is a choice quote to use for anyone inquiring about Justapedia.

And while you're quoting me, add this WaPo link, and this convenient list of news sources that took CCP money to publish propaganda, including LATimes, Financial Times, TIME Magazine, Foreign Policy Magazine, the Boston Globe, Seattle Times, The NYTimes, and Chicago Tribune. The CCP is steadily buying up America, donating big bucks to charities, and to some of our ivy league universities so they can brainwash all those young impressionable minds how great communism is, and that includes Harvard. Headline: '''Harvard Leads U.S. Colleges That Received $1 Billion From China''' so quote that all you want.

That you think those articles somehow justify your paranoid response and will somehow influence people outside your circle of MAGAhat wearing lunatics into understanding that the Chinese Communist Party infiltrating Wikipedia is a sane raison d'être for a pet project, you're probably going to be disappointed.

[AndyTheGrump]

Personally, I gave up even trying to believe that the CCP thinks that 'communism is a great idea' many years ago. They certainly don't appear to be doing anything to cause it to come about. No doubt the subtleties of this are beyond Atsme though...

[iii]

Personally, I gave up even trying to believe that the CCP thinks that 'communism is a great idea' many years ago. They certainly don't appear to be doing anything to cause it to come about. No doubt the subtleties of this are beyond Atsme though...

I think "communist" is just another convenient placeholder identity marker for right wing blather much like "terrorist" or "globalist" or "woke". It doesn't matter whether the adjective is relevant or even correctly applied, it just matters that it provokes the requisite fear-based reaction in their amygdala.

[Pelican]

I would love to hear your definition of communism, Atsme.

[AndyTheGrump]

I would love to hear your definition of communism, Atsme.

I doubt she has one. Or at least, not one that amounts to anything coherent. Hate is much safer if you don't have to explain it.

The horrible thing about the Two Minutes Hate was not that one was obliged to act a part, but, on the contrary, that it was impossible to avoid joining in. Within thirty seconds any pretence was always unnecessary. A hideous ecstasy of fear and vindictiveness, a desire to kill, to torture, to smash faces in with a sledge-hammer, seemed to flow through the whole group of people like an electric current, turning one even against one's will into a grimacing, screaming lunatic. And yet the rage that one felt was an abstract, undirected emotion which could be switched from one object to another like the flame of a blowlamp.

[Vigilant]

I would love to hear your definition of communism, Atsme.

"Anyone I don't like"

[owl be it]

You two might be the only people on the world who are mad about ivermectin in 2024, when is the wedding reception?

[rnu]

You two might be the only people on the world who are mad about ivermectin in 2024, when is the wedding reception?

The Messenger: An Ivermectin Lawsuit Could Undermine US Public Health, Experts Fear

A group of doctors is now suing the FDA, saying the agency’s efforts to refute claims about the drug’s effectiveness against COVID caused them personal harm. Some experts fear that punishment the FDA could face for refuting false information about the drug could undermine public health messaging in America.

[Atsme]

Naturally, we anticipate criticism from those whose political agendas are being challenged, but such responses are to be expected, especially from those receiving large sums of money from the CCP.

Oh look, the Reds are under the Beds again....

It surely is a choice quote to use for anyone inquiring about Justapedia.

And while you're quoting me, add this WaPo link, and this convenient list of news sources that took CCP money to publish propaganda, including LATimes, Financial Times, TIME Magazine, Foreign Policy Magazine, the Boston Globe, Seattle Times, The NYTimes, and Chicago Tribune. The CCP is steadily buying up America, donating big bucks to charities, and to some of our ivy league universities so they can brainwash all those young impressionable minds how great communism is, and that includes Harvard. Headline: '''Harvard Leads U.S. Colleges That Received $1 Billion From China''' so quote that all you want.

That you think those articles somehow justify your paranoid response and will somehow influence people outside your circle of MAGAhat wearing lunatics into understanding that the Chinese Communist Party infiltrating Wikipedia is a sane raison d'être for a pet project, you're probably going to be disappointed.

My advice to you - stick with your day job studying the stars, and spend less time on your Uranus.

[AndyTheGrump]

Such a mature response...

[orangepi]

At 20 edits per day, this is a dead project, regardless of how fancy the "state-of-the-art, climate-controlled condominiums" are.

And for some reason I doubt there is a plan to have LLMs do all the work.

[iii]

Such a mature response...

Sometimes one hits a nerve.

[Guido den Broeder]

The issue with Wikipedia competitors is they tend to not perform in search well. Perhaps due to copypasting too much stuff from existing websites, or perhaps due to manipulation from Google, which has a well-known close-connection with Wikipedia.

Unfortunately, it's a fact that Google ranking is the most important thing for a generic online encyclopedia, in terms of readership. If it's just for fun though, I wish them the best. I doubt I share Justipedia's overall politics though.

Google gives Wikipedia top weight, and competitors get a near-zero weight to the point that many pages don't even show up at all.

[Hemiauchenia]

The issue with Wikipedia competitors is they tend to not perform in search well. Perhaps due to copypasting too much stuff from existing websites, or perhaps due to manipulation from Google, which has a well-known close-connection with Wikipedia.

Unfortunately, it's a fact that Google ranking is the most important thing for a generic online encyclopedia, in terms of readership. If it's just for fun though, I wish them the best. I doubt I share Justipedia's overall politics though.

Google gives Wikipedia top weight, and competitors get a near-zero weight to the point that many pages don't even show up at all.

Except on medical topics where Wikipedia is somewhat downgraded in favour of typically more authoritative sources, though not all of them, for example Healthline (T-H-L) which is pretty bad despite being a common result (see Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_409#Healthline%3A_deprecate_or_blacklist? (T-H-L) for a discussion)