Wikipedia punishes child safety whistleblower

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Re: Wikipedia punishes child safety whistleblower

Unread post by Kiefer.Wolfowitz » Wed Aug 28, 2013 7:18 am

Notvelty wrote:Nice story, Tim. It has fuck all to do wih this situation where real names are not known to parents, parents probably don't know and there are no smart "more than two people present" procedures, but it was a nice story.

Goes to show what Demiwit and wikipedia should be doing, though.And illustrating how far away from being acceptable that they are. Perhaps that was your intent.
Tim/Carrite:

The critical point is that many of the children befriended by Demiurge1000 have Aspergers syndrome (or a similar condition), which makes them vulnerable---much more vulnerable than you were when you were 14-16.

As a 16-year old, you might have been able rationally to judge whether to risk "losing [your] penis to a [man] with disease" by satisfying a blow-job artist (c.f., Christopher Hitchens's remembrance of Tom Driberg (T-H-L)).
Image

In contrast, the kids "befriended" by Demiurge1000 have problems like
  • not understanding email (and being afraid of upsetting their parents, who had deleted their contacts) and
    being "unable to talk to people in real life".
Appearing to "groom" such kids (at best) provides cover for real child-predators.
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Re: Wikipedia punishes child safety whistleblower

Unread post by Randy from Boise » Wed Aug 28, 2013 2:22 pm

Kiefer.Wolfowitz wrote:
The critical point is that many of the children befriended by Demiurge1000 have Aspergers syndrome (or a similar condition), which makes them vulnerable---much more vulnerable than you were when you were 14-16.
* * *
In contrast, the kids "befriended" by Demiurge1000 have problems like
  • not understanding email (and being afraid of upsetting their parents, who had deleted their contacts) and being "unable to talk to people in real life". Appearing to "groom" such kids (at best) provides cover for real child-predators.
The critical point is actually that nobody yet has "lost their life to a whore with disease" via email messages (or obscene photos sent by email).*

Again, red flags? Yes. But you didn't stop with waiving red flags but went way the hell beyond that...


tim

====

* It's a Pixies song lyric.

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Re: Wikipedia punishes child safety whistleblower

Unread post by Mason » Wed Aug 28, 2013 3:18 pm

Randy from Boise wrote:But you didn't stop with waiving red flags
To be precise, it was ArbCom who waived the red flags after KW had waved them.

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Re: Wikipedia punishes child safety whistleblower

Unread post by Peter Damian » Wed Aug 28, 2013 6:14 pm

...if you are asking an abstract question is it ok for someone to mentor teens and communicate with them by email, well, yes of course, there's nothing inherently problematic about that. I assume though, that you're (as usual) trying to catch me in some kind of "gotcha" and you're withholding something you think is damaging. What is it?--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:54, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales
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Re: Wikipedia punishes child safety whistleblower

Unread post by Kiefer.Wolfowitz » Wed Aug 28, 2013 7:33 pm

Peter Damian wrote:
...if you are asking an abstract question is it ok for someone to mentor teens and communicate with them by email, well, yes of course, there's nothing inherently problematic about that. I assume though, that you're (as usual) trying to catch me in some kind of "gotcha" and you're withholding something you think is damaging. What is it?--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:54, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales
Yesterday, Wales stated that he supported WP:Child protection, which was strictly enforced (sic.)

Children should not volunteer contact information and adults should not solicit contact information, per WP:Child Protection.

The cognitive dissonance swirling around Wales makes me dizzy.
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Re: Wikipedia punishes child safety whistleblower

Unread post by Peter Damian » Wed Aug 28, 2013 7:40 pm

Kiefer.Wolfowitz wrote:Children should not volunteer contact information and adults should not solicit contact information, per WP:Child Protection.

The cognitive dissonance swirling around Wales makes me dizzy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Child_protection Where does it say that adults should not solicit contact information? It only says children should not give it, not that adults should not ask for it.

It does proscribe against "Editors who attempt to use Wikipedia to pursue or facilitate inappropriate adult–child relationships", but I can't say where it prohibits soliciting contact information.
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Re: Wikipedia punishes child safety whistleblower

Unread post by Peter Damian » Wed Aug 28, 2013 9:34 pm

Attention whores don't like email because it doesn't give them the ego hit that using a very public forum does. Resolute 19:49, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?tit ... =570574236
Totally unacceptable.
...does it not seem to you a "blame the messenger" ethos that has developed here which needs addressing? [[User:John lilburne|John lilburne]] ([[User talk:John lilburne|talk]]) 21:01, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
Quite.
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Re: Wikipedia punishes child safety whistleblower

Unread post by Vigilant » Wed Aug 28, 2013 9:40 pm

Yeah, Resolute is a charmer.
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?tit ... =570353633
Personal attacks on other editors who do not share your opinions is uncivil. If you are troubled that Wikipedia gives to much weight to SNG's, why not take your concerns to The Village Pump so it can be properly addressed by the community? Dolovis (talk) 04:42, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Don't you have more worthless crap to create? Resolute 04:46, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
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Re: Wikipedia punishes child safety whistleblower

Unread post by Wer900 » Wed Aug 28, 2013 9:44 pm

Peter Damian wrote:
Attention whores don't like email because it doesn't give them the ego hit that using a very public forum does. Resolute 19:49, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?tit ... =570574236
Totally unacceptable.
...does it not seem to you a "blame the messenger" ethos that has developed here which needs addressing? [[User:John lilburne|John lilburne]] ([[User talk:John lilburne|talk]]) 21:01, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
Quite.
Resolute (T-C-L) is one of their worst actors. An ardent opponent of Wikipedia governance reform, he has spent years doing little but currying favor and gaining power and influence. Anyone who tries to damage the house of cards that is the Wikipedia social order is quickly attacked by him, and he knows that he will not face reprisals for calling someone an "attention whore." Even in the absence of a real court system, we have to go through a pathetic "dispute resolution" system before ArbCom will consider a case against him.
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Re: Wikipedia punishes child safety whistleblower

Unread post by Midsize Jake » Thu Aug 29, 2013 1:16 am

Wer900 wrote:Resolute (T-C-L) is one of their worst actors. An ardent opponent of Wikipedia governance reform, he has spent years doing little but currying favor and gaining power and influence...
He's right about the SNGs, though. "Specific Notability Guidelines" are one of Wikipedia's biggest BLP-related problems - maybe the biggest in some respects. It doesn't excuse the fact that he's a jerk, but being a jerk doesn't make him wrong on every issue.

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Re: Wikipedia punishes child safety whistleblower

Unread post by EricBarbour » Thu Aug 29, 2013 1:29 am

Midsize Jake wrote:
Wer900 wrote:Resolute (T-C-L) is one of their worst actors. An ardent opponent of Wikipedia governance reform, he has spent years doing little but currying favor and gaining power and influence...
He's right about the SNGs, though. "Specific Notability Guidelines" are one of Wikipedia's biggest BLP-related problems - maybe the biggest in some respects. It doesn't excuse the fact that he's a jerk, but being a jerk doesn't make him wrong on every issue.
Look at the oppose votes on his 2007 RFA. I see shit like this in older RFAs all the time.
Strongly Oppose Has not been active enough, not been a member long enough and does not contibute in a wide enough spectrum to receive admininship status. Mattbroon 02:28, 15 August 2007 (UTC) User blocked for disruption in RfA discussions ▪◦▪≡ЅiREX≡Talk 03:17, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Note: This account was created August 15th [1].

Note: This account was blocked for disruption. See WP:ANI#Spamming. Flyguy649 talk contribs 19:03, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

This oppose !vote was made in bad faith. Apparently his logic is that Resolute has not been active enough nor a member long enough, however 18 minutes after making this !vote he nominated himself for RfA.[2] Resolute has 9000+ edits while Mattbroon has fewer than fifty. Pablo Talk | Contributions 04:26, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

I find that amusing! J-stan TalkContribs 17:10, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't even think this vote should count.. Croat Canuck Say hello or just talk 22:24, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

It isnt a vote, and the closing bureaucrat should take not of the circumstances of this user. i said 00:05, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Well of that I am aware, I'm just saying, and I know its still early, but it can't be called unaimonous consensus with it... I'm sure its something Resolute would take great pride in, and to see it not happen because of some unprovoked comment is unfair. Hey I've been so bored in my nomination duties thus far, Resolute's got such great support (and deservedly so!) he hasn't needed to be defended for anything yet, so this is all I have right now ;) Croat Canuck Say hello or just talk 00:13, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

lol. I appreciate the defence. To see that I have the trust of not only WP:HOCKEY, but of the wider community, thus far in this RfA means a lot to me. Mattbroon's comments, and !vote simply has to be taken with a grain of salt. His objection offered nothing actionable, so it is hard to take much of anything away from it. Besides, nobody trusts a squeaky clean individual. He might have done me a favour by giving me street cred, since I am obviously not a goody two shoes with an oppose !vote on my record. :o) Resolute 00:46, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

I hope I have done the right thing and struck it out this comment. It is unfair to Resolute, and we'd have only 500 admins by these standards. Maxim 01:53, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Oppose Res ipsa loquitur. Anything but a self-nomination is an actus reus displayed by the boisterous sociability essential to obtain one. Neil Larson

Note User blocked by Majorly for trolling of RFA. Oppose comment indented. Pedro | Chat 09:18, 16 August 2007 (UTC)


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Re: Wikipedia punishes child safety whistleblower

Unread post by Poetlister » Thu Aug 29, 2013 11:08 am

Peter Damian wrote:
Kiefer.Wolfowitz wrote:Children should not volunteer contact information and adults should not solicit contact information, per WP:Child Protection.

The cognitive dissonance swirling around Wales makes me dizzy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Child_protection Where does it say that adults should not solicit contact information? It only says children should not give it, not that adults should not ask for it.

It does proscribe against "Editors who attempt to use Wikipedia to pursue or facilitate inappropriate adult–child relationships", but I can't say where it prohibits soliciting contact information.
That is a very serious gap in the policy. Can we do anything about it?
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Re: Wikipedia punishes child safety whistleblower

Unread post by Peter Damian » Thu Aug 29, 2013 12:04 pm

Outsider wrote:
Peter Damian wrote:
Kiefer.Wolfowitz wrote:Children should not volunteer contact information and adults should not solicit contact information, per WP:Child Protection.

The cognitive dissonance swirling around Wales makes me dizzy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Child_protection Where does it say that adults should not solicit contact information? It only says children should not give it, not that adults should not ask for it.

It does proscribe against "Editors who attempt to use Wikipedia to pursue or facilitate inappropriate adult–child relationships", but I can't say where it prohibits soliciting contact information.
That is a very serious gap in the policy. Can we do anything about it?
The first thing to do is to ask Jimmy, on his talk page. "Jimmy, is it OK for an adult editor to solicit contact information from a child?". And "are you aware of the policies followed by other responsible organisations on this and other issues?"
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Re: Wikipedia punishes child safety whistleblower

Unread post by Peter Damian » Thu Aug 29, 2013 3:12 pm

A fantastic rant in the comments section.
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Re: Wikipedia punishes child safety whistleblower

Unread post by eppur si muove » Thu Aug 29, 2013 3:39 pm

He seems to have about people who like pulses. At least that's what I think a "peado" and a "peadophile" might be. Not sure about "peodophile" though. Could this be a Yank pretending to be a Brit and getting the spelling wrong? Or is it just an illiterate rant?

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Re: Wikipedia punishes child safety whistleblower

Unread post by Vigilant » Thu Aug 29, 2013 3:50 pm

To really protect underage Wikipedia editors, we could set up a large number of fake accounts pretending to be underage children. Since there aren't all that many real child editors here, the number of fake child accounts could easily vastly outnumber the number of real child accounts. Then a pedophile attempting to groom a child here, would almost always end up contacting a fake child, triggering an alert. Of course, it won't be long before it becomes widely known that most accounts pretending to be child editors are fake accounts, but then that would deter a pedophile from even trying to make improper contact with a child here. Count Iblis (talk) 15:11, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
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Is Count Iblis always this stupid or is he trolling on Jimmy's talk page?
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Re: Wikipedia punishes child safety whistleblower

Unread post by Jim » Thu Aug 29, 2013 5:31 pm

Vigilant wrote:
To really protect underage Wikipedia editors, we could set up a large number of fake accounts pretending to be underage children. Since there aren't all that many real child editors here, the number of fake child accounts could easily vastly outnumber the number of real child accounts. Then a pedophile attempting to groom a child here, would almost always end up contacting a fake child, triggering an alert. Of course, it won't be long before it becomes widely known that most accounts pretending to be child editors are fake accounts, but then that would deter a pedophile from even trying to make improper contact with a child here. Count Iblis (talk) 15:11, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
Poe's_law (T-H-L)

Is Count Iblis always this stupid or is he trolling on Jimmy's talk page?
I know it's a bit of a meme, but, altogether now...
Why not both?

Seriously - it's hard to tell. He and Wnt are similar in that if they're not doing it deliberately I fear for a species that produces such tools.

But then, if they are doing it deliberately, I fear that too...

Sorry I couldn't help more.

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Re: Wikipedia punishes child safety whistleblower

Unread post by Kiefer.Wolfowitz » Thu Aug 29, 2013 5:36 pm

Peter Damian wrote:
Kiefer.Wolfowitz wrote:... adults should not solicit contact information[/b], per WP:Child Protection.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Child_protection
Where does it say that adults should not solicit contact information?
It only says children should not give it, not that adults should not ask for it.

It does proscribe against "Editors who attempt to use Wikipedia to pursue or facilitate inappropriate adult–child relationships", but I can't say where it prohibits soliciting contact information.
Quite right.
Thanks for the correction, which I should have acknowledged yesterday.
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Re: Wikipedia punishes child safety whistleblower

Unread post by Vigilant » Thu Aug 29, 2013 5:41 pm

Jim wrote:
Vigilant wrote:
To really protect underage Wikipedia editors, we could set up a large number of fake accounts pretending to be underage children. Since there aren't all that many real child editors here, the number of fake child accounts could easily vastly outnumber the number of real child accounts. Then a pedophile attempting to groom a child here, would almost always end up contacting a fake child, triggering an alert. Of course, it won't be long before it becomes widely known that most accounts pretending to be child editors are fake accounts, but then that would deter a pedophile from even trying to make improper contact with a child here. Count Iblis (talk) 15:11, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
Poe's_law (T-H-L)

Is Count Iblis always this stupid or is he trolling on Jimmy's talk page?
I know it's a bit of a meme, but, altogether now...
Why not both?

Seriously - it's hard to tell. He and Wnt are similar in that if they're not doing it deliberately I fear for a species that produces such tools.

But then, if they are doing it deliberately, I fear that too...

Sorry I couldn't help more.
The sheer amount of logistics involved in administering "a large number of fake accounts" so that potential pedos would be fooled enough to try to contact them beggars belief.
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Re: Wikipedia punishes child safety whistleblower

Unread post by Jim » Thu Aug 29, 2013 5:44 pm

Vigilant wrote: The sheer amount of logistics involved in administering "a large number of fake accounts" so that potential pedos would be fooled enough to try to contact them beggars belief.
Not to mention how you'd screen the operators of the fake accounts so that it didn't achieve exactly the opposite and set up its own handy little sanctioned abuser network.

Hang on...

You got me - you made me actually discuss it - you are Count Iblis and I claim my 10 pound note.

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Re: Wikipedia punishes child safety whistleblower

Unread post by Midsize Jake » Thu Aug 29, 2013 5:53 pm

Vigilant wrote:The sheer amount of logistics involved in administering "a large number of fake accounts" so that potential pedos would be fooled enough to try to contact them beggars belief.
Well... I'm not saying it's a good or workable idea either, but just saying that it's "large number of fake accounts" might be enough, even if it's only a dozen or so. They would only have to show one or two successes (i.e., pedophiles getting caught by fake-child accounts) for the deterrent effect to work.

The real problem, of course, is finding people who would be willing to actually run those accounts - people who (we'd have to assume) would receive no training or legal indemnification whatsoever - and then, even (unsafely) assuming there were no leaks as to the extent of the operation, they might have to deal with the legal ramifications of a false accusation, assuming it were made public in any way whatsoever. Even a provable accusation could be legally problematic.

Basically, if they could get past those objections, something like that could actually work, after a fashion. But they'd never get past those objections.

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Re: Wikipedia punishes child safety whistleblower

Unread post by Vigilant » Thu Aug 29, 2013 5:56 pm

Midsize Jake wrote:
Vigilant wrote:The sheer amount of logistics involved in administering "a large number of fake accounts" so that potential pedos would be fooled enough to try to contact them beggars belief.
Well... I'm not saying it's a good or workable idea either, but just saying that it's "large number of fake accounts" might be enough, even if it's only a dozen or so. They would only have to show one or two successes (i.e., pedophiles getting caught by fake-child accounts) for the deterrent effect to work.

The real problem, of course, is finding people who would be willing to actually run those accounts - people who (we'd have to assume) would receive no training or legal indemnification whatsoever - and then, even (unsafely) assuming there were no leaks as to the extent of the operation, they might have to deal with the legal ramifications of a false accusation, assuming it were made public in any way whatsoever. Even a provable accusation could be legally problematic.

Basically, if they could get past those objections, something like that could actually work, after a fashion. But they'd never get past those objections.
I can see where this ends. One or more of the fake accounts gets reported to the FBI, the users behind them are unmasked and face potential federal felonies, dogs and cats living together...

There's nothing good that can come from this idea.
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Re: Wikipedia punishes child safety whistleblower

Unread post by Midsize Jake » Thu Aug 29, 2013 6:02 pm

Jim wrote:Not to mention how you'd screen the operators of the fake accounts so that it didn't achieve exactly the opposite and set up its own handy little sanctioned abuser network.
A very good point. The WMF could (and for their own protection, would almost have to) demand verified identities, but I can't imagine anyone wanting to get involved in something like that without being completely anonymous, even if their intentions were completely above-board.

So yes, there's really no way to make this work from a practical standpoint... I guess I was just impressed that someone on Wikipedia was able to "think outside the box" on this particular issue.

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Re: Wikipedia punishes child safety whistleblower

Unread post by thekohser » Thu Aug 29, 2013 7:22 pm

Midsize Jake wrote:...I can't imagine anyone wanting to get involved in something like that without being completely anonymous, even if their intentions were completely above-board.
You'd have to find someone who loves catching predators, but who might just have a bit of a blemish on his own reputation, who is out of work, but actively seeking a job to help pay the bills.
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Re: Wikipedia punishes child safety whistleblower

Unread post by Vigilant » Thu Aug 29, 2013 7:25 pm

thekohser wrote:
Midsize Jake wrote:...I can't imagine anyone wanting to get involved in something like that without being completely anonymous, even if their intentions were completely above-board.
You'd have to find someone who loves catching predators, but who might just have a bit of a blemish on his own reputation, who is out of work, but actively seeking a job to help pay the bills.
He and Jimmy would get on like a house on fire.
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Re: Wikipedia punishes child safety whistleblower

Unread post by Peter Damian » Fri Aug 30, 2013 8:38 am

Update. We managed to identify one of the targets of "Dave" via his school (and thanks to the person who managed that). I contacted his teacher, who is an ex police officer. He urged me to call the English police.

It struck me at that moment that we don't have any idea of the identity of his other targets. This is because of the double anonymity. We don't know who 'Dave' is, and we don't know (except in the one case, which was luck) who are the children he contacted.

What if something bad has ever happened on Wikipedia? How would we know, given the secret policy of not asking and not telling? We can't. Perhaps some anonymous adult has contacted some anonymous child at some time in the past, and perhaps something bad happened. How do we know? We don’t.

With all respect to this commenter, Wikipedia is not necessarily safer than Facebook. My experience of my children’s FB pages is that they are very small communities most of whom know each other. If a fox gets into that henhouse, there will be a lot of noise and commotion. Entirely different from Wikipedia, which is like a busy railway station. Also, Wikipedia is not protected by any of the standard filters, and it has a semi-respectable image as a place where scholars and clever people hang out. Few people understand the reality of Wikipedia, and that is what makes it so dangerous.

And who is responsible if something like that did happen? I wrote to the Wikimedia Foundation explaining these risks, and how the policy on child protection needs to be changed. Children, and anyone who works with children, should be identifiable by someone.

They didn’t reply of course. Why not? Even to acknowledge they received such a communication means that they were warned of the risks, and if something bad happened, it might mean they were liable. So they maintain silence. I have written to Gardner, WMF legal, Jimmy, Jay Walsh. No reply, nothing. It is as though everything I wrote vanished into the ether.

I shall be writing to the Arbitration Committee this weekend, pointing out that the Foundation effectively disclaims all responsibility, and that they are, in effect, responsible for anything that has happened, or will happen. It’s a responsibility they clearly don’t want, but someone has to accept it.

Meanwhile, the whistleblower continues to be vilified, both by some members here, and on Jimmy’s talk page. A friend of mine is a solicitor dealing with whistleblower cases. He tells me that the whistleblower is never blamed for the whistleblowing. Rather, anything else they can pin on him or her – poor work, rudeness, poor attendance, any much that they can find to slur him with. Human nature does not change.
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Re: Wikipedia punishes child safety whistleblower

Unread post by EricBarbour » Fri Aug 30, 2013 9:06 am

Peter Damian wrote:They didn’t reply of course. Why not? Even to acknowledge they received such a communication means that they were warned of the risks, and if something bad happened, it might mean they were liable. So they maintain silence. I have written to Gardner, WMF legal, Jimmy, Jay Walsh. No reply, nothing. It is as though everything I wrote vanished into the ether.

I shall be writing to the Arbitration Committee this weekend, pointing out that the Foundation effectively disclaims all responsibility, and that they are, in effect, responsible for anything that has happened, or will happen. It’s a responsibility they clearly don’t want, but someone has to accept it.
I haven't been following this in detail, but if you give me a summary with whatever real identities
or other information you have, I can write to them myself separately.

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Re: Wikipedia punishes child safety whistleblower

Unread post by thekohser » Fri Aug 30, 2013 1:10 pm

Peter Damian wrote:What if something bad has ever happened on Wikipedia?
Sorry, can't resist.
"...making nonsensical connections and culminating in feigned surprise, since 2006..."

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Re: Wikipedia punishes child safety whistleblower

Unread post by Poetlister » Fri Aug 30, 2013 8:01 pm

thekohser wrote:
Peter Damian wrote:What if something bad has ever happened on Wikipedia?
Sorry, can't resist.
However childishly people behaved in that case, they were technically adults so this is :offtopic:.
"The higher we soar the smaller we appear to those who cannot fly" - Nietzsche

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