Nihonjoe Has Been Naughty

[The Garbage Scow]

Nihonjoe has written three FAs, he knows perfectly well how sourcing works. Playing stupid at this point is blatantly insincere.

[The Garbage Scow]

I'm going to ask you directly: Are you, or have you ever been, employed by Aquaveo? Sojourner in the earth (talk) 21:30, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

Yes, though not until well after I made the majority of my edits there. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 22:10, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

There has been an off-wiki challenge of this timeline. You might want to revisit that, just in case. Carrite (talk) 04:36, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

[Pelican]

So in the gospel according to Nihonjoe, it's not the job of an article creator to find sources, but an AfD nominator must "make sure there aren't any articles or other reliable, third-party sources".

Not just according to him, of course. There's a whole contingent of brainiacs operating on those principles.

"Someone farts out oodles of BLPs sourced only to database entries."

• i sleep

"Someone else brings one of those BLPs to AfD without even visiting all major newspaper archives in the subject's home town."

• REAL SHIT

It's obvious he's only resorting to these kinds of lawyerings because there are no better arguments he could make in his defense. This whole spectacle is anything from sad to entertaining - but in the end, even Jimmy Wales had enough sense to see the writing on the wall...

[rnu]

What I mean is the standard criteria on Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest#Paid_editing, "An editor has a financial conflict of interest when they write about a topic with which they have a close financial relationship. This includes being an owner, employee, contractor, investor or other stakeholder." Sagflaps (talk) 18:28, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

As I said, I have never been paid, directly or indirectly, to edit the Aquaveo article. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 18:38, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

[rhindle]

Can one be more obtuse? In a nongeometrical way of course.

[Vigilant]

Also, just a general note, significant contributions to Aquaveo and related hydrology software WMS (hydrology software) have been made by @Edit42: and @42of8:, though it appears neither account is active. Sagflaps (talk) 20:46, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

@Nihonjoe Would you be able to provide the approximate date when your COI started if you recall it? Thanks — kashmīrī TALK 21:16, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

No. I don't think it' appropriate for you to be digging into my personal life, thank you. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 21:43, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

No worries. I thought you'd prefer to assist the community in identifying edits made while having a COI, as this tends to work out better on Wikipedia long term, especially if accompanied by a plausible explanation or self-reverts. Ultimately, it's a question of trust in your judgment and words. But, naturally, don't feel compelled. Cheers, — kashmīrī TALK 22:35, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

7 days, no action....

en.wp is just going to let this guy stonewall?

Where is ARBCOM?
Where is the ANI report?
Where are the stewards and bureaucrats?

The only thing that has been done is to remove two links to the blog post which incontrovertibly shows that Joe is bent and has been for years and years.

Anyone still think the rules are applied equitably?

[rnu]

Next COI article at AfD:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/WMS (hydrology software) (T-H-L)

[ScotFinnRadish]

7 days, no action....

Those are rookie numbers. I wouldn't be concerned until well more than a month has passed. Anything involving off-wiki anything takes forever.

[rnu]

@Nihonjoe Would you be able to provide the approximate date when your COI started if you recall it? Thanks — kashmīrī TALK 21:16, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

No. I don't think it's appropriate for you to be digging into my personal life, thank you. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 21:43, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

No worries. I thought you'd prefer to assist the community in identifying edits made while having a COI, as this tends to work out better on Wikipedia long term, especially if accompanied by a plausible explanation or self-reverts. Ultimately, it's a question of trust in your judgment and words. But, naturally, don't feel compelled. Cheers, — kashmīrī TALK 22:35, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Feel free to scrutinize any of my edits. Outside of those when I first began editing in 2005 and was learning the ropes, I've done my best to be very neutral in all of them. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 23:29, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

I really don't think that is how it works when you have a COI. At least not how it is supposed to work.

[Vigilant]

7 days, no action....

Those are rookie numbers. I wouldn't be concerned until well more than a month has passed. Anything involving off-wiki anything takes forever.

Not when it's a bog standard editor, it doesn't.

[rnu]

Allegations of COI

Can you please restore my nomination at Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Aquaveo? I see no reason for censoring the information about COI allegations wrt a number of article contributors, especially given our policies on socking. You can leave out the Wikipediocracy link if you prefer. Cheers, — kashmīrī TALK 03:02, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

The link to Wikipediocracy is outing, so there's no way I am restoring it. I have restored the text per your request. PhilKnight (talk) 03:18, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. — kashmīrī TALK 03:32, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

[Randy from Boise]

The link to Wikipediocracy is outing, so there's no way I am restoring it. I have restored the text per your request. PhilKnight (talk) 03:18, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

Called it.

It's actually lucky you didn't get slugged in the head for that.

t

[Vigilant]

lololololol

I am sooooo busy in real life that I just cannot find the time to respond to extremely serious allegations about my COI editing!!!
diff


Uhhhh, it appears you have me dead to rights, so I will concede the barest of minimums.
diff

Strip this bad actor of all his permissions and block him for a year.

[Giraffe Stapler]

lololololol

I am sooooo busy in real life that I just cannot find the time to respond to extremely serious allegations about my COI editing!!!
diff


Uhhhh, it appears you have me dead to rights, so I will concede the barest of minimums.
diff

Strip this bad actor of all his permissions and block him for a year.

I feel like Joe "Nihonjoe" Monson is running out of time to just come clean, offer up a mea culpa, and resign his advanced permissions if he wants to retain at least some small amount of respect. It may already be too late. His dissembling in that AFD isn't doing him any favours. I am going to predict that there will be a discussion started at either or both of the COI or admin noticeboards by the end of the week.

I'm sure that Arbcom is aware of this, but I'm not sure if Arbcom can strip him of bureaucrat rights if he doesn't want to give them up. Arbcom could strip him of his admin bits, but I'm not sure bureaucrat rights are within their jurisdiction. Anyone know?

[rnu]

What silence? I have a life outside of Wikipedia, and I can't spend every waking moment here. And refusing to share personal information is not dodging questions or trying to avoid scrutiny. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 18:12, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

It is when that "personal information" is information about your COI.

[The Devil's Advocate]

Not sure what you all expect ArbCom to do in this situation. He isn't exactly committing an uncommon sin and they rarely take serious action against people for it. Were they to take action it would be a capitulation to public pressure rather than a case of them applying their standards consistently and I am skeptical even that will move them. You are more likely to see another power admin jump in on this cowboy-style due to the public scrutiny before ArbCom moves an inch. I suppose if he has one thing counting against him being treated by the same standards as others, it is that he can be construed as representing "bad politics" due to the Sad Puppies connection.

[Randy from Boise]

Not sure what you all expect ArbCom to do in this situation. He isn't exactly committing an uncommon sin and they rarely take serious action against people for it.

It's a misdemeanor. But an embarrassing one...

If he used admin powers against a competitor to his company's products, that would be a felony.

t

[Kraken]

It's immaterial whether ArbCom have the power. They can still make a public comment based on the sum of all the evidence (public and private). They do that often enough in other matters not exactly within their jurisdiction.

What I want to know is what the two ArbCrats are doing right now.

[utbc]

Why the heck did I vote for HJ Mitchell? How the heck did so many make the same mistake? Oh My God!!

[Vigilant]

Now at ANI.

[Vigilant]

Why the heck did I vote for HJ Mitchell? How the heck did so many make the same mistake? Oh My God!!

Yeah, that's a shit response at ANI.

Looks like another potential sock has been unearthed too.
BurroWrangler (T-C-L)

[Giraffe Stapler]

Looks like another potential sock has been unearthed too.
BurroWrangler (T-C-L)

BurroWrangler is someone else. Specifically, this guy whose given name is Chris.

[Giraffe Stapler]

Since I now know this, you may as well. Regneva (T-C-L) is Aquaveo employee Eric Joseph Jones. Active mostly in 2008. Didn't do much. Created a redirect for one of the company's products.

[C&B]

Since I now know this, you may as well. Regneva (T-C-L) is Aquaveo employee Eric Joseph Jones. Active mostly in 2008. Didn't do much. Created a redirect for one of the company's products.

You know.
Now we know.

<million dollar question>

Did Nihonjoe know?

[Giraffe Stapler]

Since I now know this, you may as well. Regneva (T-C-L) is Aquaveo employee Eric Joseph Jones. Active mostly in 2008. Didn't do much. Created a redirect for one of the company's products.

You know.
Now we know.

<million dollar question>

Did Nihonjoe know?

It's a moot point since Nihonjoe didn't work for the company at that time.

I came across him because I was looking into other geosciences products on Wikipedia and discovering that the topic area is a wasteland of COI and cut-and-paste copyright violation. Here are 3 examples: Rockworks (T-H-L), ArcView 3.x (T-H-L), and SGS Genesis (T-H-L). There are also link farms like the one in Stiff diagram. I would say someone should clean it up, but I don't think anyone outside of that small community ever looks at these or cares about 20 year old software.

[C&B]

We now have a mandatory non-apology (diff). Observers ask: is it enough to save him from himself

[Vigilant]

9 days later, a non-apology apology is offered.

Generally, sysops in the past have lost their permissions for things that are not related to their actions as administrators. As you said, it's more about community trust. Sagflaps (talk) 18:00, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Fram would like a word...

[rnu]

We now have a mandatory non-apology (diff). Observers ask: is it enough to save him from himself

Probably. Faking faking* contrition tends to work for power users.

(The double "faking" is not a typo.)

[Zoloft]

I'm spectacularly disappointed in the responses so far.

[Kraken]

Generally, sysops in the past have lost their permissions for things that are not related to their actions as administrators. As you said, it's more about community trust. Sagflaps (talk) 18:00, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

{citation-needed}

"No abuse of the tools" repeated ad nauseum is basically memeworthy at this point.

[C&B]

That's the guy who carried this over to WP in first place (diff). And also obvious sock

[rnu]

That's the guy who carried this over to WP in first place (diff). And also obvious sock

Sagflaps was "unvanished" because he had an earlier account as Morphdog (T-C-L). Do you have reasons to believe it is a sock beyond what can be explained by a legitimate new start with a new account?

[C&B]

None at all! Struck. Thank you rnu.

[Kraken]

Not disclosing a COI is a big mistake, but the impact has been pretty trivial and they've owned up to it now. To me, a bigger concern is that participants here don't seem to care about the effort to dig into Nihonjoe's personal details off-wiki, outing and doxing him on a site known for harassment of Wikipedians, and publishing all of those allegations (even the thin speculation about sockpuppetry) here on-wiki. Is outing and doxing really tolerated by this community as long as you actually find a speck of dirt in their past? Could this really not have been settled in a completely private manner? I suppose it does send a clear message: watch those COIs or you lose all rights to privacy and discretion. The cat's out of the bag at this point, so fair to have a conversation about what to do, but it's not Joe who's primarily lost my trust here. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 19:43, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Meow.

Either block Kashmiri for OUTING or keep quiet.

Doxxing that occurs on another site - even if it's triggered by WP editing - is something that's essentially impossible to deal with. People suck. I imagine most of us think COI editing is bad, and doxxing is bad, and different people assign different levels of outrage to each. The change I feel I've seen in recent years is that people seem almost unconcerned about doxxing if it's in the service of sniffing out a COI. I know others disagree, but this feels like if I got 5 years in jail for shoplifting a Snickers, and when I complained, I'm told "well you shouldn't have broken the law". I suspect there are those here who don't understand the point I'm trying to make because they would agree with the 5-year sentence. I can simultaneously be disappointed in NihonJoe, but even more disappointed in "Eddie Lands-something", who I'm sure has no WP account and no history of disagreement with NihonJoe on-wiki. The moral of the story is threefold, kids: (1) Don't edit with a COI, (2) Don't link your WP username with a username anywhere else in the world, and (3) Always remember that there are a lot of smart and mean-spirited people out there, who think they're on the side of angels. --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:14, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Oh Hai. Smart and mean spirited person here.

Aren't you the guy who undid an OFFICE action without having ANY CLUE whether someone's real-world safety was at risk? How much of the bravery that went into that decision was based on the knowledge that because nobody can doxx you, the worst that could happen in response is a desyop? Doesn't seem very fair, does it? Kind of like a two second sentence for holding up a truck full of snickerz.

Oh, and please don't compare being forced to apologize and then (presumably) being allowed to go about your business to a five year jail sentence. Or even to what usually happens to an editor who admits a COI years after the fact, but with much prevarication, and with an oft seen excuse that is barely excusable from a low ranking experienced editor. They usually get blocked.

Infact, Jesus Christ. Don't even comment on trust in high office at all. You don't have the credit.

[rnu]

RoySmith (T-C-L) closed the discussion:

TROUT
Nihonjoe has admitted the COI editing, understands that it was inappropriate, has apologized, and if I'm reading the room right, the community has accepted his apology. Let's all go write some articles.

That's a rather bold summary.

[Kraken]

....I apologize for any appearance of evasiveness and for not indicating my COI as I should have done. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 18:37, 22 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Personally, I'm willing to accept this. ....

Sagflaps (talk) 18:52, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

I’m not.

Nor should anyone else I don't think.

There are certain things a Bureaucrat just shouldn't do.

They shouldn't have such a poor knowledge of core policy that people now have a right to wonder, are we being lied to by Bureaucrat?

They shouldn't have such a poor knowledge of online privacy that people now have a right to wonder, are we being lied to by a Bureaucrat?

[C&B]

RoySmith (T-C-L) closed the discussion:

TROUT
Nihonjoe has admitted the COI editing, understands that it was inappropriate, has apologized, and if I'm reading the room right, the community has accepted his apology. Let's all go write some articles.

That's a rather bold summary.

That "go write some articles" comment is a bit... Ritchie333?!

Talk about circling wagons

[Kraken]

RoySmith (T-C-L) closed the discussion:

TROUT
Nihonjoe has admitted the COI editing, understands that it was inappropriate, has apologized, and if I'm reading the room right, the community has accepted his apology. Let's all go write some articles.

That's a rather bold summary.

Thankfully undone.

 21:19, 22 February 2024‎ El C talk contribs‎  179,096 bytes −253‎  Undid revision 1209628139 by RoySmith (talk) — what? No. And not even signed? 

I certainly want to see affirmative proof that for something as serious as this, the "community" is absolutely fine with a mea culpa. For which you do need to be sure the entire globe has had a chance to weigh in, not whatever part was awake for the 8 hours this has been open.

[Giraffe Stapler]

RoySmith (T-C-L) closed the discussion:

TROUT
Nihonjoe has admitted the COI editing, understands that it was inappropriate, has apologized, and if I'm reading the room right, the community has accepted his apology. Let's all go write some articles.

That's a rather bold summary.

Nothing to see here, folks. Move along.

[rnu]

Was worth a try, anyway

Thanks. Floquenbeam (talk) 21:38, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Sigh. RoySmith (talk) 21:42, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

[C&B]

The big boys love in begins.

"Sigh. If only those kids would listen to us"

Dick swingers both.

[The Devil's Advocate]

COI editing bad. Yes. But if outing is required to prove it, though, keep it private. Go to the editor, go to arbcom, and let them do what needs to be done.

I tried this approach and all I can say to anyone considering the same:

[Zoloft]

Sunlight is the best disinfectant.

I mean, if not that, what then? Fire?

Enjoy the sunlight.

[eppur si muove]

There's been relatively discussion on WP of the socking. Also if Joe is the sort of person who posts positive reviews of his wife's books on other websites without disclosing COI, how can anyone trust him not to use his Crat and Admin bits on WP in a way that does not support his interests elsewhere? A leopard does not change its spots just because it is on a different website.

As usual there is a lot of in- and out-group dynamics going on.

[Zoloft]

Had we not used the elephant image in the blog post, this would have been my choice:

[Kraken]

While there have been some concerns expressed about Nihonjoe's adminship and bureaucratship, there have been as of yet no formal proposals to do anything about it, and we are reaching the heat/light boundary. If anyone still has any significant or serious concerns, please feel free to start a new subsection with a specific proposal(s). Primefac (talk) 13:26, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

What an absolute joke.

Clear and obvious case of giving preferential treatment to powerful users.

And how can he even dare close this discussion (presumably as an impartial Administrator) when he is directly involved as a Bureaucrat and Arbitrator?

Now that he has tipped the scales, is he seriously expecting some lowly user or ordinary Admin to believe it would be wise or sensible to start a sub-section calling for an Admin accountability Arbitration case or a De-Crat proposal?

Perhaps what needs to happen here is that someone writes this incident up for an external journal, as a example of the warped upside down world that seems to exist in Wikipedia's management systems.

Did You Know that.....when volunteering for Wikipedia, the higher you rise, the less harshly you will be treated for serious breaches of policy and being evasive when you get caught?

Maybe then ArbCom will open a case without being asked.

With Primefac named as a party hopefully, to see if he has any possible justification for treating this particular AN/I report differently to any other. Because they sure as shit don't get shut down this fast pending an actual proposal when it's not a powerful user who has been embarrassed and "harassed".

I mean Jesus Christ, Primefac the Arbitrator/Bureaucrat literally just shut down a debate which features criticism of how ArbCom have (or have not) handled the sensitive but important matter of a Bureaucrat having been exposed as a COI editor.

In the real world this would be the point that ArbCom comes under investigation by an independent body to examine if they are guilty of breaching their own obligations.

Nihonjoe did a stupid thing. The usual cabal of malignant griefers of course want him tarred and feathered, but a slap with the Wikitrout seems more appropriate. And Kashmiri does not come off well here, for obviously frivolous and vindictive AfD nominations. Guy (help! - typo?) 10:38, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

This guy certainly needs to be examined in an Arbitration Case.

An Administrator who thinks it's a more serious breach of policy to AfD an article riven with COI edits, than edit said article with an undeclared COI then be evasive when called out on it? No way is that guy not using their tools to protect their friends or their own interests. No fucking way.

Should probably be summarily desysopped for "cabal of malignant griefers" alone, if higher standards is to mean anything at all. To see nasty shit like that from an Admin in a section where people are talking about the evil that is "harassment", all because people dared to raise an issue publicly because as far as anyone knows it was going nowhere in private? Ridiculous.

[utbc]

Dude already gave up adminship cos people kept telling him he was too mean for an admin.

[Giraffe Stapler]

I find it odd that no one in that AN thread asked Nihonjoe if he had any other conflicts of interest that he'd like to declare. Oh well, I'm sure ArbCom is dealing with it and something will be announced any day now...

[owl be it]

Did You Know that.....when volunteering for Wikipedia, the higher you rise, the less harshly you will be treated for serious breaches of policy and being evasive when you get caught?

Is there any organization or website that doesn't work this way?

[The Devil's Advocate]

What I find most interesting in the discussion are the number of people jumping on the idea of the COI policies being different years ago, when the basic nature of policy has been the same since the beginning. Undisclosed COI editing itself, save paid editing, is not prohibited by policy. In the distant past it was permitted and now it is just strongly discouraged with disclosure expected. However, the only requirements were to abide by regular policies. COI essentially just acts an enhancer, sorta similar to BLP policy. The same policy-violating edit can be treated as more severe if a COI is involved, especially an undisclosed one.

If I made any mistake in my own case of reporting this kind of issue, it was dwelling more on the undisclosed COI than on the policy violations, though I certainly explained a number of the policy violations and ArbCom certainly were capable enough to understand them and identify any I didn't explain. This really does boil down to it being such a common sin, in my opinion, that no one wants to do anything unless it is really bad with that threshold being entirely up to the whims of whoever is reviewing that particular case. Even then, the usual issues with power users and House POV apply as impediments to action.