Pardon My French (Court Case)

Wikipediocracy blog posts
User avatar
Midsize Jake
Site Admin
Posts: 9969
kołdry
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 11:10 pm
Wikipedia Review Member: Somey

Pardon My French (Court Case)

Unread post by Midsize Jake » Fri Jan 27, 2023 6:56 am

This one's about the recent lawsuit that the WMF lost in France, which was mentioned in the last Wikipedia Signpost. It's all rather outré, really.

Pardon My French (Court Case)
By Sidney Ulps
Wikipediocracy sports and legal specialist
Although Sulpyensid’s edits spurred a court case in France, their account is not banned by the WMF. They aren’t even blocked on English WIkipedia, where they created such articles as this biography of a minor French television personality which unnecessarily mentions his hair transplant and quotes someone calling him “a bit violent and misogynistic,” among other things.
.
.
Earlier discussion of this case can be found here, including how much this will cost the WMF and their donors — assuming they actually pay out.
Last edited by Zoloft on Thu Apr 18, 2024 9:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: fixed link

User avatar
eppur si muove
Habitué
Posts: 1996
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 1:28 pm

Re: Pardon My French (Court Case)

Unread post by eppur si muove » Fri Jan 27, 2023 3:29 pm

I wonder whether anyone has thought to contact the people who obtained this court order (the lawyers and/or their client) that the sockpuppet documentation means that WIkimedia does have lots of details of the libeller.

User avatar
Giraffe Stapler
Habitué
Posts: 3169
Joined: Thu May 02, 2019 5:13 pm

Re: Pardon My French (Court Case)

Unread post by Giraffe Stapler » Fri Jan 27, 2023 4:37 pm

eppur si muove wrote:
Fri Jan 27, 2023 3:29 pm
I wonder whether anyone has thought to contact the people who obtained this court order (the lawyers and/or their client) that the sockpuppet documentation means that WIkimedia does have lots of details of the libeller.
Just because Wikipedia admins on two projects keep blocking accounts as sockpuppets of the same person doesn't mean that the WMF knows anything. Those people are volunteers, remember. Sure, they say they know the identity of that person, but the WMF lawyers probably know better than to ask them. Similarly, just because they have the IP and user agent information of the recent sock puppets, that's not what the court asked for. How is the WMF to know that it's the same person, just because the volunteers say so?

ArmasRebane
Habitué
Posts: 1003
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2015 7:04 pm

Re: Pardon My French (Court Case)

Unread post by ArmasRebane » Fri Jan 27, 2023 6:02 pm

Giraffe Stapler wrote:
Fri Jan 27, 2023 4:37 pm
eppur si muove wrote:
Fri Jan 27, 2023 3:29 pm
I wonder whether anyone has thought to contact the people who obtained this court order (the lawyers and/or their client) that the sockpuppet documentation means that WIkimedia does have lots of details of the libeller.
Just because Wikipedia admins on two projects keep blocking accounts as sockpuppets of the same person doesn't mean that the WMF knows anything. Those people are volunteers, remember. Sure, they say they know the identity of that person, but the WMF lawyers probably know better than to ask them. Similarly, just because they have the IP and user agent information of the recent sock puppets, that's not what the court asked for. How is the WMF to know that it's the same person, just because the volunteers say so?
IP and user agent info on its own isn't going to be useful in legally proving anything, either. Lots of people can share IP addresses, UA are easily spoofed or obfuscated these days.

User avatar
Giraffe Stapler
Habitué
Posts: 3169
Joined: Thu May 02, 2019 5:13 pm

Re: Pardon My French (Court Case)

Unread post by Giraffe Stapler » Fri Jan 27, 2023 8:06 pm

ArmasRebane wrote:
Fri Jan 27, 2023 6:02 pm
IP and user agent info on its own isn't going to be useful in legally proving anything, either. Lots of people can share IP addresses, UA are easily spoofed or obfuscated these days.
You get the IP address, you ask the ISP for the customer information. It may turn out to be a VPN provider. It may turn out to be a cafe. It may turn out to be an individual. They won't know unless they ask.

User avatar
Midsize Jake
Site Admin
Posts: 9969
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 11:10 pm
Wikipedia Review Member: Somey

Re: Pardon My French (Court Case)

Unread post by Midsize Jake » Fri Jan 27, 2023 9:02 pm

eppur si muove wrote:
Fri Jan 27, 2023 3:29 pm
I wonder whether anyone has thought to contact the people who obtained this court order (the lawyers and/or their client) that the sockpuppet documentation means that WIkimedia does have lots of details of the libeller.
I can only say that we haven't done that, but at the risk of giving too much away here, it should have been possible for an internet-savvy private investigator with some competence in "forensic wiki auditing" to figure all this out, even down to the probable identity of the perpetrator. (And when I say "probable," my estimate would be to within an 80% likelihood or even higher.) IOW, we're fairly clever at this sort of thing, but it's not like we have a monopoly on it. So, was such a person ever hired? We don't know.

Frankly, it's a double-bind scenario. It seems possible (to me, anyway) that Mr. de Gourcuff may be deliberately "playing dumb," and behaving as though such an investigation couldn't possibly have succeeded without data from the WMF, because he realizes that merely getting an injunction against the perp is completely insufficient. Any of the perp's friends could pick up right where he left off, at any time. So he has to sue the WMF, and win, in order to ensure the article is protected at a sufficiently higher level in the medium/long term. Except now, we see (unsurprisingly, at least to me and I should think most of us here) that the WMF would rather pay thousands of Euros in donor money to de Gourcuff and the French courts than do the responsible thing for this one article and this one really obvious case. (It's true that they might never actually pay, but that's sort of a side issue.)

Alternatively, Mr. de Gourcuff and/or his lawyers might have already hired that competent P.I., who might have already done the investigation and already found out who the perp is, but maybe they believe they can't make a case against the perp in a French court without having first done their "due diligence" (of getting confirming data from the WMF, or at least trying). In other words, the lawyers are going down a list of all the possible objections a French judge could make in relation to their case, and covering them. That might indicate that the perp is actually a high-value target — perhaps a rich guy, or someone who's so widely disliked in French society that de Gourcuff would actually gain in stature by ultimately destroying him, even if he takes a nasty hit in the short term.

There are other possibilities too, of course, but this post is long enough already. Basically, this case could be a "slow burner" — maybe not so immediately interesting for those of us who aren't French, but it could go on for a while and have some interesting repercussions.

User avatar
Giraffe Stapler
Habitué
Posts: 3169
Joined: Thu May 02, 2019 5:13 pm

Re: Pardon My French (Court Case)

Unread post by Giraffe Stapler » Tue Jan 31, 2023 5:31 pm

Looks like this blog post got someone so riled up that they moved one of the articles mentioned to draft! That'll show 'em.

In the meantime, MRCLD (T-C-L) has started (or maybe continued) cutting-and-pasting Google-translated French articles like Marie-Christine de Montbrial (T-H-L) and Emmanuel Faye (T-H-L). Plus ça change.*
* "plus ça change" is a French phrase meaning "Do you have any change?" or, more commonly, "Spare some change?" shouted at you as you try to enjoy an Americano at a small street cafe while keeping one eye on your rented moped

User avatar
Bezdomni
Habitué
Posts: 2967
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2016 9:07 pm
Wikipedia User: RosasHills
Location: Monster Vainglory ON (.. party HQ ..)

Re: Pardon My French (Court Case)

Unread post by Bezdomni » Fri Feb 03, 2023 10:50 pm

Giraffe Stapler wrote:
Tue Jan 31, 2023 5:31 pm
* "plus ça change" is a French phrase meaning "Do you have any change?" or, more commonly, "Spare some change?" shouted at you as you try to enjoy an Americano at a small street cafe while keeping one eye on your rented moped
The day after you posted this MRCLD was blocked on fr.wp. Clean-up really isn't going very well over there. I suppose I should get off my hands and start typing, but I do kind of resent feeling that Albion is grinning watching people painstakingly scoop his droppings out of the letterbox. Reminds me of the Doritos commercial... scoop all you want, we'll make more...

I'd much prefer to cater to your francophiliac péché mignon here with an adequate recent vintage...



Cheers! (21:46)
ps: WPO had mentions both at RS/N & BLP/N today. :B'
los auberginos

User avatar
Giraffe Stapler
Habitué
Posts: 3169
Joined: Thu May 02, 2019 5:13 pm

Re: Pardon My French (Court Case)

Unread post by Giraffe Stapler » Sat Feb 04, 2023 12:06 am

Bezdomni wrote:
Fri Feb 03, 2023 10:50 pm
The day after you posted this MRCLD was blocked on fr.wp.
It was just a matter of time. I'm sure there's another sock or two already

Your taste in music remains impeccable. :)

User avatar
Giraffe Stapler
Habitué
Posts: 3169
Joined: Thu May 02, 2019 5:13 pm

Re: Pardon My French (Court Case)

Unread post by Giraffe Stapler » Fri Feb 10, 2023 10:10 pm

This article was created by the person at the root of all this. I'll give you a bit of the Google translation and I think you'll spot the issue:
Claudia Brunner (born 1972 , Graz , Austria ) is an Austrian researcher.

Biography
Family
She is the great-niece of Alois Brunner , a Nazi war criminal [ 1 ] .

User avatar
Smultronstället
Regular
Posts: 343
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2022 4:44 am

Re: Pardon My French (Court Case)

Unread post by Smultronstället » Sat Feb 11, 2023 1:47 am

Giraffe Stapler wrote:
Fri Feb 10, 2023 10:10 pm
This article was created by the person at the root of all this. I'll give you a bit of the Google translation and I think you'll spot the issue:
Claudia Brunner (born 1972 , Graz , Austria ) is an Austrian researcher.

Biography
Family
She is the great-niece of Alois Brunner , a Nazi war criminal [ 1 ] .
Is the article writer alleged to be glorifying Nazis or to be trying to hold Nazis (and their descendants) to account?
All that's needed is humility, prayer, fasting, Bible reading, patient endurance, and true faith in and obedience to Jesus. Correct belief adheres strictly to the Bible neither omitting nor adding to the Word of God. There are no secrets.

User avatar
Midsize Jake
Site Admin
Posts: 9969
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 11:10 pm
Wikipedia Review Member: Somey

Re: Pardon My French (Court Case)

Unread post by Midsize Jake » Sat Feb 11, 2023 2:38 am

Smultronstället wrote:
Sat Feb 11, 2023 1:47 am
Is the article writer alleged to be glorifying Nazis or to be trying to hold Nazis (and their descendants) to account?
Neither. It's just the usual tactic of trying to associated anyone involved in gender studies with Nazis, assuming a pedophile or serial killer isn't available.

I would imagine it's even harder to find an upper-class German or Austrian who doesn't have a dead distant relative who was a Nazi (in some way shape or form) than it is to find a French person. And the fact that he took the trouble to specify the relationship as "great-niece" suggests he might have had a look at this thread, at some point or other.

User avatar
Bezdomni
Habitué
Posts: 2967
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2016 9:07 pm
Wikipedia User: RosasHills
Location: Monster Vainglory ON (.. party HQ ..)

Re: Pardon My French (Court Case)

Unread post by Bezdomni » Sat Feb 11, 2023 3:40 am

He knows that even if he were to write something patently false and egregious that had never been written anywhere else, the absolute maximum penalty he could face for abusing the defamation engine is €12,000. It's unlikely he'll stop anytime soon. ps: I am not a lawyer. :D

I suppose the WMF could take him to court for trespassing. :unsure:
los auberginos

User avatar
Smultronstället
Regular
Posts: 343
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2022 4:44 am

Re: Pardon My French (Court Case)

Unread post by Smultronstället » Sat Feb 11, 2023 4:07 am

Midsize Jake wrote:
Sat Feb 11, 2023 2:38 am
Smultronstället wrote:
Sat Feb 11, 2023 1:47 am
Is the article writer alleged to be glorifying Nazis or to be trying to hold Nazis (and their descendants) to account?
Neither. It's just the usual tactic of trying to associated anyone involved in gender studies with Nazis, assuming a pedophile or serial killer isn't available.

I would imagine it's even harder to find an upper-class German or Austrian who doesn't have a dead distant relative who was a Nazi (in some way shape or form) than it is to find a French person. And the fact that he took the trouble to specify the relationship as "great-niece" suggests he might have had a look at this thread, at some point or other.
So it's all about opposing gender studies and the WMF has to pay a fine. I wonder if the media will cover this.
All that's needed is humility, prayer, fasting, Bible reading, patient endurance, and true faith in and obedience to Jesus. Correct belief adheres strictly to the Bible neither omitting nor adding to the Word of God. There are no secrets.

User avatar
Bezdomni
Habitué
Posts: 2967
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2016 9:07 pm
Wikipedia User: RosasHills
Location: Monster Vainglory ON (.. party HQ ..)

Re: Pardon My French (Court Case)

Unread post by Bezdomni » Sat Feb 11, 2023 1:40 pm

Midsize Jake wrote:
Sat Feb 11, 2023 2:38 am
Smultronstället wrote:
Sat Feb 11, 2023 1:47 am
Is the article writer alleged to be glorifying Nazis or to be trying to hold Nazis (and their descendants) to account?
Neither. It's just the usual tactic of trying to associated anyone involved in gender studies with Nazis, assuming a pedophile or serial killer isn't available.

I would imagine it's even harder to find an upper-class German or Austrian who doesn't have a dead distant relative who was a Nazi (in some way shape or form) than it is to find a French person. And the fact that he took the trouble to specify the relationship as "great-niece" suggests he might have had a look at this thread, at some point or other.
Geez, Jake. Are you being wrong on the internet, again? :blink: There is nothing I've seen in his contribution history suggesting he has anything against gender studies. And since you say you know who he is...

Also, assuming one is in Brittany, I do imagine that it is much easier to find a French person than it is to find an upper-class German or Austrian (who doesn't have a dead distant relative (who was a Nazi)).

Finally, it was an anonymous IP who corrected Albion's original "granddaughter" to great niece back in 2011. Maybe it was him just back from the future and in such a hurry to correct his error after reading your posts here that he forgot to log back in.
los auberginos

User avatar
Giraffe Stapler
Habitué
Posts: 3169
Joined: Thu May 02, 2019 5:13 pm

Re: Pardon My French (Court Case)

Unread post by Giraffe Stapler » Sun Jul 09, 2023 3:20 am

Albion/AlexLevyOne's current account is Jean Eden (T-C-L).

I'm guessing from the picture he put on her French Wikipedia page that he's not a fan of author Katherine Pancol.

Image

User avatar
Bezdomni
Habitué
Posts: 2967
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2016 9:07 pm
Wikipedia User: RosasHills
Location: Monster Vainglory ON (.. party HQ ..)

Re: Pardon My French (Court Case)

Unread post by Bezdomni » Sun Jul 09, 2023 2:32 pm

As reported in the Signpost, the WMF lost their appeal and was condemned to pay another €3000 plus court costs and was again ordered to hand over Albion's personally identifying data to the plaintiffs. The appeals court rejected the WMF's claim that communicating the identity of Sulpyensid/Albion/AlexLevyOne, etal. to Noctis Event & Mr X prior to their appeal would have defeated the purpose of their appeal (to protect the bravely anonymous user's identity). The court ruled that since Noctis Event & Mr X could not have used the information in court should the appeals court have overruled the lower court, there was no reason not to comply with the lower court order.

The idea seems to be that since the lower court ordered it, if Noctis Event & Mr X then hired goons to spray-paint dandelions onto the said Albion's porch-swing or a Banksy-style "dog taking a leak" on his business façade, or had their press agents publish unflattering portraits of him in local culture magazines, this would not be the WMF's legal responsibility since the court had ordered them to release the info. Since the WMF is no longer legally responsible for the protection of the information from NE, they have no grounds for complaint.

Is this the end of the road for the WMF legal team? Well, theoretically they could try to formulate an appeal on formal grounds to the Court of Cassation, but it seems likely that if they continue to withhold the PID from Noctis (which would likely be construed as continuing contempt of court at this point), they won't be helping their case.
los auberginos

User avatar
Giraffe Stapler
Habitué
Posts: 3169
Joined: Thu May 02, 2019 5:13 pm

Re: Pardon My French (Court Case)

Unread post by Giraffe Stapler » Tue Jan 02, 2024 5:04 am

If anyone is still tracking these things, Albion's latest sock is Wikipeya (no English Wikipedia edits yet).

User avatar
Giraffe Stapler
Habitué
Posts: 3169
Joined: Thu May 02, 2019 5:13 pm

Re: Pardon My French (Court Case)

Unread post by Giraffe Stapler » Mon Feb 05, 2024 5:27 pm

Giraffe Stapler wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2024 5:04 am
If anyone is still tracking these things, Albion's latest sock is Wikipeya (no English Wikipedia edits yet).
Just noting that Wikipeya (T-C-L) has now made some edits on English Wikipedia so that I can say "I told you so" later.

User avatar
Bezdomni
Habitué
Posts: 2967
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2016 9:07 pm
Wikipedia User: RosasHills
Location: Monster Vainglory ON (.. party HQ ..)

Re: Pardon My French (Court Case)

Unread post by Bezdomni » Mon Feb 05, 2024 6:19 pm

Giraffe Stapler wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2024 5:27 pm
Giraffe Stapler wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2024 5:04 am
If anyone is still tracking these things, Albion's latest sock is Wikipeya (no English Wikipedia edits yet).
Just noting that Wikipeya (T-C-L) has now made some edits on English Wikipedia so that I can say "I told you so" later.
Yes, I looked at the account when you first posted. You were right, but up until then they hadn't seemed to be doing too much harm. Has that changed?
los auberginos

User avatar
Giraffe Stapler
Habitué
Posts: 3169
Joined: Thu May 02, 2019 5:13 pm

Re: Pardon My French (Court Case)

Unread post by Giraffe Stapler » Mon Feb 05, 2024 6:39 pm

Bezdomni wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2024 6:19 pm
Yes, I looked at the account when you first posted. You were right, but up until then they hadn't seemed to be doing too much harm. Has that changed?
Seems to be doing his usual smearing act over on French Wikipedia, but I'm not familiar with the person involved, so maybe it's all true. Even so, making a "coatrack" article about someone just to say how terrible they are is something that I have had disagreements about in the past so maybe I should stay quiet.

User avatar
tarantino
Habitué
Posts: 4804
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:19 pm

Re: Pardon My French (Court Case)

Unread post by tarantino » Mon Feb 05, 2024 8:24 pm

There's a list of his false noses here, https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3% ... ion~frwiki .

User avatar
Bezdomni
Habitué
Posts: 2967
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2016 9:07 pm
Wikipedia User: RosasHills
Location: Monster Vainglory ON (.. party HQ ..)

Re: Pardon My French (Court Case)

Unread post by Bezdomni » Sun Feb 11, 2024 12:40 pm

This latest sock is now blocked on fr.wp and the BLP you mentioned above has been deleted. Some further reading.
los auberginos

User avatar
Giraffe Stapler
Habitué
Posts: 3169
Joined: Thu May 02, 2019 5:13 pm

Re: Pardon My French (Court Case)

Unread post by Giraffe Stapler » Sun Feb 11, 2024 4:57 pm

Bezdomni wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2024 12:40 pm
This latest sock is now blocked on fr.wp and the BLP you mentioned above has been deleted. Some further reading.
Thanks to whichever little bird whispered in the right ear in the right language. ;)

User avatar
Giraffe Stapler
Habitué
Posts: 3169
Joined: Thu May 02, 2019 5:13 pm

Re: Pardon My French (Court Case)

Unread post by Giraffe Stapler » Thu Mar 07, 2024 9:53 pm

My contacts in the NSA tell me that the latest false nose is Duc d'Anjou.

User avatar
Konveyor Belt
Gregarious
Posts: 730
Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2014 11:46 pm
Wikipedia User: formerly Konveyor Belt

Re: Pardon My French (Court Case)

Unread post by Konveyor Belt » Fri Mar 08, 2024 5:14 pm

Giraffe Stapler wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2024 9:53 pm
My contacts in the NSA tell me that the latest false nose is Duc d'Anjou.
If it quacs like a duc.....
Always improving...

User avatar
Giraffe Stapler
Habitué
Posts: 3169
Joined: Thu May 02, 2019 5:13 pm

Re: Pardon My French (Court Case)

Unread post by Giraffe Stapler » Wed Mar 20, 2024 3:48 am

Looks like things might be getting difficult for Duc d'Anjou, although they are not blocked. The replacement sock appears to be Orrouy.

User avatar
tarantino
Habitué
Posts: 4804
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:19 pm

Re: Pardon My French (Court Case)

Unread post by tarantino » Fri Mar 29, 2024 4:42 pm

The wmf has deleted the French articles on Laurent de Gourcuff and François Billot de Lochner. We didn't notice at the time, but the foundation lost a court case to Lochner and was ordered to delete the page. There's some discussion about it on the French administrator's noticeboard.

User avatar
Giraffe Stapler
Habitué
Posts: 3169
Joined: Thu May 02, 2019 5:13 pm

Re: Pardon My French (Court Case)

Unread post by Giraffe Stapler » Tue Apr 16, 2024 7:57 pm

Giraffe Stapler wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2024 3:48 am
Looks like things might be getting difficult for Duc d'Anjou, although they are not blocked. The replacement sock appears to be Orrouy.
Orrouy (T-C-L) has shown up on Laurent de Gourcuff's English Wikipedia article now. They aren't subtle.

They created an article for Eva Léandre, now moved to a draft and rejected. Over on French Wikipedia, the same thing happened and the article has been moved to their own userspace. The two versions are slightly different. While both mention that she and her former spouse are quoted as praising a Shen Yun performance in the Epoch Times, only the French one mentions some "association" with someone involved the the LMVH espionage affair (whatever that is). This is obviously another hit piece.

Meanwhile, Orrouy, who in real life is the owner of a gallery in Montmartre, is arguing for the deletion of an article about a gallery in Montmartre. It will be interesting when his neighbours find out what he's up to.

[EDIT] Sorry, what I meant to say was imagine if Orrouy was the owner of a gallery in Montmartre. Sometimes I have difficulty with confusing fantasy and reality. I mean, he or she could be anyone.

User avatar
Bezdomni
Habitué
Posts: 2967
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2016 9:07 pm
Wikipedia User: RosasHills
Location: Monster Vainglory ON (.. party HQ ..)

Re: Pardon My French (Court Case)

Unread post by Bezdomni » Tue Apr 16, 2024 8:23 pm

:D

I had to look back at the original blog post to see why we'd both had that weird dream... and discovered that the link doesn't work.

(the working link doesn't have a date in it.)
los auberginos

User avatar
Yngvadottir
Contributor
Posts: 74
Joined: Tue Apr 02, 2024 11:35 pm
Wikipedia User: Yngvadottir
Location: Land of fruits and nuts

Re: Pardon My French (Court Case)

Unread post by Yngvadottir » Wed Apr 17, 2024 2:36 am

I had expected a disturbance after de Gourcuff was convicted. But apparently his educational qualifications still loom larger. smh. (Thanks for the tip-off.)

User avatar
Zoloft
Trustee
Posts: 14103
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 11:54 pm
Wikipedia User: Stanistani
Wikipedia Review Member: Zoloft
Actual Name: William Burns
Nom de plume: William Burns
Location: San Diego

Re: Pardon My French (Court Case)

Unread post by Zoloft » Thu Apr 18, 2024 9:01 am

Bezdomni wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2024 8:23 pm
:D

I had to look back at the original blog post to see why we'd both had that weird dream... and discovered that the link doesn't work.

(the working link doesn't have a date in it.)
Fixed, thanks!

My avatar is sometimes indicative of my mood:
  • Actual mug ◄
  • Uncle Cornpone
  • Zoloft bouncy pill-thing