Erik Moeller asks, should WMF give money to Wikia?

[thekohser]

Well, if you read between the lines, that's what I think he's paving the way for.

[Jim]

Well, if you read between the lines, that's what I think he's paving the way for.

You think he first wants to introduce a policy for sponsorship of non-profits, then sneakily expand it to include a for-profit Wikia? It's possible, I guess - though far more likely to me would be that he has fingers in, or interest in, a particular non-profit he'd like to pass some of the slush fund to.

[Malleus]

Well, if you read between the lines, that's what I think he's paving the way for.

You think he first wants to introduce a policy for sponsorship of non-profits, then sneakily expand it to include a for-profit Wikia? It's possible, I guess - though far more likely to me would be that he has fingers in, or interest in, a particular non-profit he'd like to pass some of the slush fund to.

I agree. The WMF has far more money than it knows what to do with, so syphoning some of it off would make sense to those who'd like to line their pockets.

[thekohser]

You think he first wants to introduce a policy for sponsorship of non-profits, then sneakily expand it to include a for-profit Wikia? It's possible, I guess - though far more likely to me would be that he has fingers in, or interest in, a particular non-profit he'd like to pass some of the slush fund to.

It might be more of a three-step process. First, some pure non-profit organizations (of which one or more will have ties to either Erik, Jimbo, or Sue) will get some cash from the WMF -- Civilination, anyone? Then, we'll see money being shipped to some of these newfangled "for profit charities" we've been hearing more and more about -- you know, Impossible.com, The People's Operator, Omidyar Network, and others like them. Finally, with Jimbo fully on board with this new source of WMF money (it was so difficult and visible renting out office space to the WMF, remember), he'll find a way that Wikia gets a "grant" of some kind, to help improve VisualEditor, or something like that.

[Kelly Martin]

MariaDB, for those who do not know, is a fork of MySQL, the database engine that Wikimedia uses. MySQL was originally a volunteer project that eventually was purchased by Sun (which nobody minded much as Sun at the time was fairly friendly to Open Source) and then became part of Oracle when Oracle bought Sun. Oracle started to make moves to take MySQL closed-source, leading to the MariaDB fork, and Wikipedia switched to MariaDB in 2012, largely as a show of support for MariaDB. It's clear that the WMF is joining the battle against Oracle.

Put short, MariaDB is in a battle with Oracle for the low end of the database engine market, and they need money to fund that battle. Domas Mituzas (the author of the above-linked piece), a database engineer at Facebook who used to be a major engineer on MySQL (before the Sun acquisition) and a former WMF board member and current Advisory Board member, likely is involved in this somehow, although it's thoroughly unclear to me where Domas stands on this issue from glancing through his blog.

I don't think this is a deliberate attempt to steer money to Wikia. Rather, Wikipedia is utterly dependent on MariaDB (they are certainly one of MariaDB's largest customers, if not its largest), and funding MariaDB may well make sense for them. Personally, I think Wikimedia should be using a NoSQL database, but nobody at WMF development has the chops to engineer such a beast.

So this is just "nonprofit that needs cash has friends with nonprofit that has cash". Basically the same thing that happened when WMF granted Freenode $5000 in 2006.

[lilburne]

Well, if you read between the lines, that's what I think he's paving the way for.

You think he first wants to introduce a policy for sponsorship of non-profits, then sneakily expand it to include a for-profit Wikia? It's possible, I guess - though far more likely to me would be that he has fingers in, or interest in, a particular non-profit he'd like to pass some of the slush fund to.

I agree. The WMF has far more money than it knows what to do with, so syphoning some of it off would make sense to those who'd like to line their pockets.

Is NAMBLA in need of money?

[EricBarbour]

Well, if you read between the lines, that's what I think he's paving the way for.

On the one hand, he worded this properly, with a focus on open-source software projects Wikipedia depends on.

On the other hand, in my opinion and after looking closely at his personal history, nothing that asshole says can be trusted. Erik is all about Erik, he is the Center Of The Universe and his poopies smell like a lovely bouquet. Any "official pronouncement" he makes almost certainly has a hidden agenda attached, one which we might never even learn about.

Remember, this is the first guy to openly offer to edit Wikipedia for pay; the first person to claim that children are sexual creatures (in Wikipedia articles); one of the first Wikipedia bureaucrats, and the admin who brought a long list of other dishonest people into Wikipedia by sysopping them in mid-2003; one of the first Wikipedians to post bad, outdated information on an article; one of the first "NOTCENSORED" extremists; one of the first people to openly fight with Larry Sanger; one of the first Wikipedians, along with Cunctator, to have ties to "black hat" hacker organizations; and the guy who tried to seize control of the WMF in 2006. And the father of Commons. Does that sound like a "great leader"?

[Poetlister]

one of the first Wikipedia bureaucrats

Is that a demerit? Nobody could claim that all the bureaucrats are knights in white armour, but on average they are not as bad as other admins, for the simple reason that they had to survive an RfB, a much higher hurdle than an RfA.

[EricBarbour]

one of the first Wikipedia bureaucrats

Is that a demerit? Nobody could claim that all the bureaucrats are knights in white armour, but on average they are not as bad as other admins, for the simple reason that they had to survive an RfB, a much higher hurdle than an RfA.

There was no RFB for Moeller. In February 2004, the first six bureaucrats magically appeared, with no process or discussion that I can find. All I can see is this announcement by Tim Starling. Who chose them? Nobody is willing to talk.

[Kelly Martin]

Who chose them? Nobody is willing to talk.[/b]

My guess is that they were chosen by Brion and/or Tim, possibly with Jimbo's input. The whole reason for implementing bureaucrats was to shift work away from Brion and Tim, and since they were driving the change, they probably chose the bureaucrats as well.

[EricBarbour]

My guess is that they were chosen by Brion and/or Tim, possibly with Jimbo's input. The whole reason for implementing bureaucrats was to shift work away from Brion and Tim, and since they were driving the change, they probably chose the bureaucrats as well.

Probably correct, although if you asked those people directly, they will hem and haw, or shout you down. All such old roads lead back to Wales, and the others are apparently sworn to protect his "good name" at all costs.

[Hex]

That's interesting. The history there is wrong, because the first bureaucrats appeared before 17 February 2004 - see the history of Meta:Bureaucrat.

The text was originally added to that page by Majorly as:

Prior to [[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]]'s promotion, bureaucrats were liberally given rights without an RfB. These users were: [[User:Angela|Angela]], [[User:Eloquence|Eloquence]], [[User:Secretlondon|Secretlondon]], [[User:Stan Shebs|Stan Shebs]], [[User:Tim Starling|Tim Starling]] and [[User:TUF-KAT|TUF-KAT]]. Before the function of bureaucrats was created, administrators here were promoted by stewards.

but then "corrected" by UninvitedCompany to

The initial set of bureaucrats chosen at the time the role was created was: [[User:Angela|Angela]], [[User:Eloquence|Eloquence]], [[User:Secretlondon|Secretlondon]], [[User:Stan Shebs|Stan Shebs]], [[User:Tim Starling|Tim Starling]] and [[User:TUF-KAT|TUF-KAT]]. Before the function of bureaucrats was created, administrators here were promoted by manual updates to the database. Most such updates were performed by Ed Poor.

The incorrect date was added by NoSeptember.

Incidentally, here's the announcement of the first checkusers.

[Kelly Martin]

Incidentally, here's the announcement of the first checkusers.

Not including David Gerard, who was the first checkuser, and who had it for months before practically anyone else even knew about it.

[EricBarbour]

Not including David Gerard, who was the first checkuser, and who had it for months before practically anyone else even knew about it.

And who probably abused checkuser more than anyone else in Wikipedia's history. Same for oversight. And it will never be proven, because he destroyed most of the evidence.

[Kumioko]

I think its also worth noting that the WMF and the Wikia folks have a long history of collusion both direct and indirect. They both cooperated on Visual editor, programmers from both team up to write code fixes and improvements for the Wikimedia software and on and on. Where they start to spike is where Wikipedia is used as a test bed when new code changes come out before they are implemented at Wikia. Wikipedia is nothing more than a widely used and well known advertising/marketing tool for Wikia and a test lab for implementing changes before they are added to the for profit software. Having said all that I am fine with editing Wikia knowing its for profit (although I truly hate their default skin) I just don't like the clandestine nature of their collusion with the WMF.

[Kelly Martin]

Where they start to spike is where Wikipedia is used as a test bed when new code changes come out before they are implemented at Wikia.

Except this statement doesn't cohere with the evidence. Historically, code was developed and tested at Wikia long before it ever made it into Wikipedia's base. The reason this no longer obtains is that Wikia is foundering and no longer has flush cash coffers to pay developers; thus, nothing is being developed at Wikia anymore.

[Zoloft]

Where they start to spike is where Wikipedia is used as a test bed when new code changes come out before they are implemented at Wikia.

Except this statement doesn't cohere with the evidence. Historically, code was developed and tested at Wikia long before it ever made it into Wikipedia's base. The reason this no longer obtains is that Wikia is foundering and no longer has flush cash coffers to pay developers; thus, nothing is being developed at Wikia anymore.

...

They list positions open for mobile development at Poznan. Looks like they have an active development team.

[Kelly Martin]

They list positions open for mobile development at Poznan. Looks like they have an active development team.

Yes, they do some development these days, but virtually all of it is for their revenue side, none of which has any utility at Wikipedia. (E.g. the "feature" that tries to draw visitors on lower-traffic, lower-revenue Wikia sites onto their higher-traffic, higher-revenue sites.) If it doesn't enhance revenue, Wikia doesn't mess with it. The days when Wikia was used as a testbed for Wikipedia (exactly the opposite of what Kumioko alleged) are in the past.

[The Joy]

PHP Engineer

Job Description

You’re an experienced engineer searching for your next challenge. How does this grab you?

We’re one of the largest websites in the world, all of our content is user generated, and our platform is completely open source. If those things interest you, then you interest us.

Like our wikis and communities, Wikia is passionate, high-energy, and collaborative. Wikia is one of the largest Creative Commons-licensed sites in the world, as we maintain over 300,000 wikis across an impressive array of subjects, spanning all aspects of entertainment, gaming, and lifestyle. We are rated as a Quantcast Top 30, ComScore Top 100, and Nielsen Top 10 Social Media Site and are read by over 100 million unique visitors a month.

We are as open source as a company can get and you will work to understand and extend our code base, which is seen by millions of unique users every day. This role is centered on creating interesting new user features and working on various initiatives that will change the way users interact with the pop culture content they love. All the while you will be working alongside the best of the best engineers based both in the US and Europe. A passion for quality and great engineering will be the key to success in this role.

You are a highly-skilled LAMP developer who has 5+ years of experience developing highly-trafficked, dynamic websites. You’re probably an expert in PHP or similar technologies but more importantly you’ve developed some amazing web-based apps and software. You work quickly but thrive on quality and are passionate about contributing to open source. You understand user generated content and like the idea of working on the same platform that Wikipedia was built on. Extra points for MediaWiki experience.

Unlike most startups, our exciting platform is also coupled with a strong work-life balance. You’ll have the opportunity to shape the revenue stream of the company, technology, and products while having fun. For your expertise, we will offer a competitive base pay and full benefits. Our dog-friendly digs are located in San Francisco (between BART and CalTrain) and also come with a stocked pantry and gaming room, where some employees practice yoga at lunch.

Ready to put your open source money where your mouth is on a truly massive scale? Inquire within and let’s get you started.

http://www.jobscore.com/jobs2/wikiainc/ ... U3iGakhP3Q

"One of largest websites in the world?" Compared to what?

Wouldn't a completely "open-source company" have no employees and rely totally on volunteers like Wikipedia?

"Pop culture content?" Please kill me.

"LAMP developer?" Which programs should I know!?! LAMP (software bundle) (T-H-L)

"Unlike most startups..." You've been a company for ten years and you still think of yourself as a startup!?!

Most companies are explicit about the kind of skills and traits they want in an applicant. I have no idea what Wikia wants in a PHP engineer from this job description. If I'm already making "great apps" and whatnot, why I would I want to take my talents to Wikia? "Dog-friendly?" Does that mean I'll be trapped in the office for eons and need to keep my dog at the office because he will starve at my house? I don't like these hippy, love-dovey job descriptions Wikia and the Wikimedia Foundation put out. How on earth do they survive?

[EricBarbour]

Most companies are explicit about the kind of skills and traits they want in an applicant. I have no idea what Wikia wants in a PHP engineer from this job description.

This is a Jimbo company we're talking about. One has no choice but to "read between the lines". What they really want is someone like Brion Vibber, who can hack the PHP code in MediaWiki to do things not on the menu. But cheaper than Brion, probably.

[thekohser]

I don't like these hippy, love-dovey job descriptions Wikia and the Wikimedia Foundation put out. How on earth do they survive?

Your head probably would have exploded back when they were advertising (on YouTube) the fact that they had an in-office trampoline for "workers" to de-stress themselves.

[Kumioko]

They list positions open for mobile development at Poznan. Looks like they have an active development team.

Yes, they do some development these days, but virtually all of it is for their revenue side, none of which has any utility at Wikipedia. (E.g. the "feature" that tries to draw visitors on lower-traffic, lower-revenue Wikia sites onto their higher-traffic, higher-revenue sites.) If it doesn't enhance revenue, Wikia doesn't mess with it. The days when Wikia was used as a testbed for Wikipedia (exactly the opposite of what Kumioko alleged) are in the past.

I don't think I am really to far off Kelly. True the Wikia is struggling right now but from the development aspect, a few examples.
- The development of visual editor was a joint project between Wikia and Wikipedia. Sure there are differerences between the 2 end products and a lot of problems still exist, but they did and still do work together on it.
- The Wikia gave Wikipedia "donations" several times in the past.
- Updates to the Mediawiki core software are almost always released on Wikipedia first to work the bugs out

With that said it makes sense for them to collaborate on things. Both organizations are in the same building and they have significant overlaps in skillsets and a similar purpose. I think the biggest problem with Wikia is that its skin is crap, ugly and hard to navigate.

Regarding the foundering comment, there still seems to be quite a lot of traffic to the site. The Wiki's I am most involved in got 5000 plus views a day. Pretty small by Wikipedia standards but still respectable IMO. I think Wikia just doesn't market themselves very well. They could do a lot better job.

[thekohser]

Both organizations are in the same building...

Really?

[Kumioko]

Different floors, but same building...unless that changed in the last couple years.

Wikia's address is:
500 Third St. Suite 405,500 3rd Street, San Francisco, CA, 94107

Wikimedia Foundation, Inc. address is:
149 New Montgomery Street Floor 6 San Francisco, CA 94105

When I mapquest directs it shows them a couple blocks apart but I distinctly remember them being in the same building the couple times I visited although I admit there might be functions not located in the same place. Like mail delivery.

[thekohser]

I don't think Wikia and WMF have ever shared the same headquarters address in San Francisco. The WMF for about 15 or 18 months once rented some overflow office space from Wikia, but that's it.

If you go way back to late 2004, I believe that Wikia and the Wikimedia Foundation each were sharing mailbox addresses (#306 and #358, respectively) that were at (what is now) a UPS Store, on 200 2nd Avenue South, in St. Petersburg, FL.

Extra for experts -- at one time the WMF was headquartered at 39 Stillman Street in San Francisco. They didn't want anyone to know that, though, owing to a dangerous stalker. Coincidentally, at the time, if you went to Google StreetView and moved the camera down to the end of the block, there was Erik Moeller out on the sidewalk with a couple of his WMF cronies, gawking at the Google camera vehicle. A screenshot used to be stored on Wikipedia Review, but that page is now gone.

(Calling Midsize Jake -- please restore your old copy of Wikipedia Review.)

[Poetlister]

I've got a photo of 39 Stillman Street but I don't think it's the same one - there are no people visible.

[EricBarbour]

Extra for experts -- at one time the WMF was headquartered at 39 Stillman Street in San Francisco. They didn't want anyone to know that, though, owing to a dangerous stalker. Coincidentally, at the time, if you went to Google StreetView and moved the camera down to the end of the block, there was Erik Moeller out on the sidewalk with a couple of his WMF cronies, gawking at the Google camera vehicle. A screenshot used to be stored on Wikipedia Review, but that page is now gone.

I remember the exact image you're talking about. While researching something else I ran across it a couple of weeks ago. Moeller, Sue, Steven Walling, and a couple of others standing on the corner evidently headed to lunch. The WR thread it appeared in is now completely gone, for unexplained reasons. Unfortunately I didn't think it worth saving.

[thekohser]

Extra for experts -- at one time the WMF was headquartered at 39 Stillman Street in San Francisco. They didn't want anyone to know that, though, owing to a dangerous stalker. Coincidentally, at the time, if you went to Google StreetView and moved the camera down to the end of the block, there was Erik Moeller out on the sidewalk with a couple of his WMF cronies, gawking at the Google camera vehicle. A screenshot used to be stored on Wikipedia Review, but that page is now gone.

I remember the exact image you're talking about. While researching something else I ran across it a couple of weeks ago. Moeller, Sue, Steven Walling, and a couple of others standing on the corner evidently headed to lunch. The WR thread it appeared in is now completely gone, for unexplained reasons. Unfortunately I didn't think it worth saving.

Turns out, I already had it in stock.

I don't think Gardner's in the photo. Isn't it curious how one of the staffers was ready with his big-lens camera, to take a photo of the truck photographing them?