Btphelps gets indignant about his COIs

[Giraffe Stapler]

Brian T. Phelps edits Wikipedia as Btphelps (T-C-L). You might remember the name from our blog post "The Bra-men of Wikipedia Revisited" or maybe this related thread.

Anyway, Btphelps' COI editing was brought up on the COI noticeboard recently over his seeming promotional editing in topics relating to Big Sur, California. The reaction to the report was less than positive. Btphelps questioned the evidence and said:

Please refrain from further preemptive, rogue edits and cease your attempts to smear my character, my many years of reliable contributions to WO, and attacks on my reputation. This unnecessary report of a COI and unfounded attack on me along with your rash deletion of content without discussion are in part why so many good editors leave WP.

Evrik (T-C-L) stated:

I've worked with @Btphelps: for a while now. I'm looking at the accusation being made here, and those at Béla H. Bánáthy. This is baffling. Unless I see actual evidence, I feel that a good, and long-time user, is being smeared. --evrik (talk) 02:34, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

Graywalls (T-C-L), the user who had made the initial report, then opened a second topic on the COI noticboard. This one was about White Stag Leadership Development Program (T-H-L) and one of its founders Béla H. Bánáthy (T-H-L). Graywalls nominated White Stag for deletion, calling it "Advertising or other spam without any relevant or encyclopedic content". Their website just happens to be owned and operated by Brian T. Phelps. He even has a bio there where he proudly states that he's sold over 2000 copies of his self-published books.

Of course, the deletion of that article set off another round at the COI noticeboard. Btphelps stated:

I first wrote that I was co-director of White Stag in 2008 on WP here. That position lasted for two years. The content on my WP user page that you cite lasted much longer than my volunteer position. I was never employed by that non-profit. It did not then and does not now have any employees. The idea that I might somehow benefit financially from it is laughable.

So if you don't make any money from it (perhaps apart from selling your own books), it's fine, I feel like that's exactly the defense used recently by Thmazing. And since Béla H. Bánáthy is dead, apparently that's not a COI, either.

WP:COI's def is so broad and vague that it can be easily capitalized on by someone with an axe to grind. Saying there is a COI on someone who has been dead since 2003 is certainly outside the intent of wp:coi. North8000 (talk) 16:00, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

Graywalls has stated that they have emailed off-wiki evidence to some Wikipedia email, but we all know what a waste of time that is. More to follow...

[Vigilant]

Someone with half a brain should start an RFC about COI editing and enshrine something decent and workable into a policy.

[Zoloft]

Phelps could not have picked a better time to have become more visible on COI issues...

[Giraffe Stapler]

Brian T Phelps also edited as Altstikman (T-C-L). And I'm pretty sure there's another account, but I forget what it was. Here's an archive of an archive of Altstikman's now-deleted user page and sandbox. His main interests appear to be teaching young people leadership skills, the Boy Scouts, naturism, and breasts. Some of those don't go together well.

Graywalls should probably look at these search results for phelpsfamilyhistory.com being used as a reference on Wikipedia. Btphelps has been writing about his relatives for years. Caresse Crosby (T-H-L) (AKA Mary Phelps Jacobs) was covered in the blog post, but Did you know... that he is only her "seventh cousin three times removed"?

I'm putting Camp Pico Blanco (T-H-L) on my watchlist, as well as the userpage of new account Whitestag1933 (T-C-L).

[Randy from Boise]

Someone with half a brain should start an RFC about COI editing and enshrine something decent and workable into a policy.

There is absolutely no way that any proposal of any kind could achieve consensus via RFC.

Oh, I guess: COI Editing is bad, m'kay? might be able to muster 3/4 support...

t

[Randy from Boise]

His main interests appear to be teaching young people leadership skills, the Boy Scouts, naturism, and breasts. Some of those don't go together well.

That depends on one's perspective, I suppose.

t

[Giraffe Stapler]

I probably should have titled this "Let's talk about BSA editors" because there's a Boy Scouts of America boys club at work here. Btphelps has been involved with the BSA for many years, He was "District Executive for the San Francisco Boy Scout Council" among other things. He's done a lot of work on BSA-related articles on Wikipedia. I am a bit mystified at how BSA councils merit their own articles, but the scouting enthusiasts are as bad as any other special interest group on Wikipedia. Tell me Sequoia Council (T-H-L) would exist if it was about stamp collecting or growing rosebushes.

The people pushing back hardest on Graywalls' COI reports are Evrik (T-C-L) and North8000 (T-C-L). Both have been involved with the BSA for a long time and are part of Wikiproject:Scouting. You may notice that North8000 appears on the list of members twice. That's because they were banned (yes, site banned) as a result of the gun control ArbCom case in 2014. They were un-banned in 2016.

I wouldn't expect much to happen to Btphelps so long as he gets support from his BSA cronies, which I'm sure he will.

[The Blue Newt]

Phelps could not have picked a better time to have become more visible on COI issues...

Perhaps he could try some kind of Phelps dodge.

[Giraffe Stapler]

Graywalls is continuing to piss off the scouting folks. They tried redirecting COPE (Boy Scouts of America) (T-H-L) to the main BSA article but they were reverted by Evrik, so now it is nominated for deletion. where the only two keep votes are from Evrik (literally just "keep") and North8000. I guess Btphelps hasn't got the memo yet.

[rnu]

Graywalls is continuing to piss off the scouting folks. They tried redirecting COPE (Boy Scouts of America) (T-H-L) to the main BSA article but they were reverted by Evrik, so now it is nominated for deletion. where the only two keep votes are from Evrik (literally just "keep") and North8000. I guess Btphelps hasn't got the memo yet.

Am I imagining things or does the person on the picture illustrating the article look like it may not be the typical boy scout?

[The Blue Newt]

Graywalls is continuing to piss off the scouting folks. They tried redirecting COPE (Boy Scouts of America) (T-H-L) to the main BSA article but they were reverted by Evrik, so now it is nominated for deletion. where the only two keep votes are from Evrik (literally just "keep") and North8000. I guess Btphelps hasn't got the memo yet.

Am I imagining things or does the person on the picture illustrating the article look like it may not be the typical boy scout?

Cisgendrist.

[tarantino]

She's a Venturer.

[Giraffe Stapler]

Am I imagining things or does the person on the picture illustrating the article look like it may not be the typical boy scout?

That's not a boy scout, that's a Venturer. From Venturing (T-H-L) (sourced entirely to BSA sources, of course):

Venturing is a core program of the Boy Scouts of America for young men and women ages 14 (or 13 and graduated the eighth grade) through 20. It is one of the Boy Scouts' three programs for older youth, which also include Sea Scouts and Exploring.

Note, though, that "Exploring" is not actually a Boy Scout program, as you will learn at Exploring (Learning for Life) (T-H-L). Oh, and there's wholly separate article on Learning for Life (T-H-L). It somehow doesn't mention that:

There have been numerous cases over the last three decades in which police officers supervising Explorers have been charged, in civil and criminal cases, with sexually abusing them.

This article paints an interesting picture of one of the programs.

[Vigilant]

Gah!

There's a real need to bring back mandatory public castration for these predators.

[Giraffe Stapler]

I need to correct something I said. While Exploring (Learning for Life) does not mention the sexual assault cases associated with the program, I overlooked the fact that there are separate articles for some of the Exploring programs. Specifically:

• Aviation Career Exploring (T-H-L)
• Fire Service Exploring (T-H-L)
• Health Career Exploring (T-H-L)
• Law Enforcement Exploring (T-H-L)

There is a paragraph about sexual abuse in Law Enforcement Exploring:

Since the mid-1970s, there have been over 100 reported cases of police officers raping Explorers, the vast majority of whom were underage. Such incidents have occurred in at least 66 police departments.[3] Learning for Life has created a set of rules governing the Explorer program, which includes a non-fraternization policy between officers (or "adult leaders") and Explorers.[4] However, it leaves oversight to individual departments.[5] There are no reported cases of Learning for Life revoking a police department's ability to operate an Explorer program over failed oversight leading to one or several incidents of sexual abuse.[5]

So it is mentioned, just not where I was looking.

[Zoloft]

I need to correct something I said. While Exploring (Learning for Life) does not mention the sexual assault cases associated with the program, I overlooked the fact that there are separate articles for some of the Exploring programs. Specifically:

• Aviation Career Exploring (T-H-L)
• Fire Service Exploring (T-H-L)
• Health Career Exploring (T-H-L)
• Law Enforcement Exploring (T-H-L)

There is a paragraph about sexual abuse in Law Enforcement Exploring:

Since the mid-1970s, there have been over 100 reported cases of police officers raping Explorers, the vast majority of whom were underage. Such incidents have occurred in at least 66 police departments.[3] Learning for Life has created a set of rules governing the Explorer program, which includes a non-fraternization policy between officers (or "adult leaders") and Explorers.[4] However, it leaves oversight to individual departments.[5] There are no reported cases of Learning for Life revoking a police department's ability to operate an Explorer program over failed oversight leading to one or several incidents of sexual abuse.[5]

So it is mentioned, just not where I was looking.

I had a 16-year-old friend in the Law Enforcement Exploring program in 1974. The officer she was riding with made a pass at her, and she ripped his face open with her fingernails. They fired him, but there were no charges placed.

[ArmasRebane]

I need to correct something I said. While Exploring (Learning for Life) does not mention the sexual assault cases associated with the program, I overlooked the fact that there are separate articles for some of the Exploring programs. Specifically:

• Aviation Career Exploring (T-H-L)
• Fire Service Exploring (T-H-L)
• Health Career Exploring (T-H-L)
• Law Enforcement Exploring (T-H-L)

There is a paragraph about sexual abuse in Law Enforcement Exploring:

Since the mid-1970s, there have been over 100 reported cases of police officers raping Explorers, the vast majority of whom were underage. Such incidents have occurred in at least 66 police departments.[3] Learning for Life has created a set of rules governing the Explorer program, which includes a non-fraternization policy between officers (or "adult leaders") and Explorers.[4] However, it leaves oversight to individual departments.[5] There are no reported cases of Learning for Life revoking a police department's ability to operate an Explorer program over failed oversight leading to one or several incidents of sexual abuse.[5]

So it is mentioned, just not where I was looking.

Begs the question of whether any of these are notable on their own, or are best talked about separately versus discussed in a group.

[Giraffe Stapler]

Begs the question of whether any of these are notable on their own, or are best talked about separately versus discussed in a group.

If you look at BSA-related articles, you start to see that a lot of them are sourced almost entirely to BSA sources. And because people are passionate about scouting, they are padded out with all kinds of arcane details that only matter to scouting enthusiasts.

I know the BSA has been trying to change its image for decades, but I think of it as a white, Christian institution. My observations of the people editing Wikipedia on BSA-related topics is that they tend to be white Christian men, or, at least, I haven't noticed anyone who wasn't. They are really really fond of their traditions.

[rnu]

Now at ANI:
User:Graywalls reported by User:72.83.72.31 ongoing / pemanent

[rnu]

Evrik (T-C-L) is identified on his commons uploads and a photo on his commons user page as Bruce Anderson.
Bruce Andersen
- was "Outreach Director, Boy Scouts of America, Orange County Council, Jan 1990 - Jul 1993 ·3 years 7 months, Orange County, California Area"
- is a "Volunteer Boy Scouts of America Jan 1990 - Present ·34 years 3 months"
- is a "Silver Beaver (T-H-L) Boy Scouts of America Apr 2014"
- lives in Washington, D.C. to which the ip that filed the ANI complaint against graywalls happens to geolocate.
Evrik is the first person the ip pinged (along with Jergen (T-C-L), Btphelps (T-C-L), North8000 (T-C-L), and Erp (T-C-L).
As has been pointed out at the ANI the ip's report is mostly a copy of a declined report by Evrik.

[rnu]

Jergen (T-C-L) identifies as "Pfadfinder" (the German equivalent of Scout) on his German user page and is identified on commons uploads like this one as Jörg Bürgis.
Bürgis is the contact person between the Verband Christlicher Pfadfinderinnen und Pfadfinder Rheinland-Pfalz/Saar (VCP RPS) (the Association for Christian Girl and Boy Scouts Rhineland-Palatinate/Saar) and the Protestant Church in Hesse and Nassau.

edit:fixed link for Jergen, not Jergens - t

[Giraffe Stapler]

Evrik is the first person the ip pinged (along with Jergen (T-C-L), Btphelps (T-C-L), North8000 (T-C-L), and Erp (T-C-L).

Erp (T-C-L) is Emma Pease, according to this image upload. That's Emma Ruth Pease. Which means that her father would be R. Fabian Pease (T-H-L) of the Pease family (T-H-L), an article that Pease created about her many famous relatives.

Pease works at Stanford's Center for the Study of Language and Information. I am unclear on her connection to scouting other than having been in a girl scout troop. According to April 30, 1976 edition of The Daily Register of Shrewsbury, New Jersey, 14-year-old Pease was awarded First Class Rank "the highest rank in girl scouting". Perhaps she's just very nostalgic.

Screenshot 2024-04-01 at 13-07-07 1976-04-30.pdf.jpg

[rnu]

North8000 (T-C-L) has a long history of scouting:

Your post is the first I've ever heard of a coup system in 61 years of scouting so I really can't comment or help. North8000 (talk) 19:57, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

[rnu]

Pro tip: when you are forum-shopping and making bad faith allegations while having an undeclared COI you can avoid a boomerang by posting while logged out. Because repeatedly asking the obvious question, i.e. whether you are the one who posted the allegations is "hounding" and "[n]o editor has the obligation to publicly associate themselves with an IP address and we're not entitled to an answer".
ANI: Question for Evrik

[Randy from Boise]

Graywalls is continuing to piss off the scouting folks. They tried redirecting COPE (Boy Scouts of America) (T-H-L) to the main BSA article but they were reverted by Evrik, so now it is nominated for deletion. where the only two keep votes are from Evrik (literally just "keep") and North8000. I guess Btphelps hasn't got the memo yet.

Am I imagining things or does the person on the picture illustrating the article look like it may not be the typical boy scout?

Cisgendrist.

There's a Scouts wood lot at the end of my road and I buy wood from them every year. They use it as a fundraiser. It's a pretty good deal, market rate or slightly under for fir and they don't have far to haul it and the kids stack it.

Anyway, this year it was a mix of boys and girls stacking it, for what it's worth.

t

[Yngvadottir]

Am I imagining things or does the person on the picture illustrating the article look like it may not be the typical boy scout?

Cisgendrist.

There's a Scouts wood lot at the end of my road and I buy wood from them every year. They use it as a fundraiser. It's a pretty good deal, market rate or slightly under for fir and they don't have far to haul it and the kids stack it.

Anyway, this year it was a mix of boys and girls stacking it, for what it's worth.

t

Boy Scouts of America went basically co-ed in the 2010s. Though I see stuff about separate girls' troops. In fact on this they lag the original organisation: what's now called The Scout Association allowed admission of girls at all levels in 1991 and made it mandatory in 2007. (Too lazy to cite better sources than Wikipedia.) As a former Girl Guide, I regret this.

[Konveyor Belt]

Boy Scouts of America went basically co-ed in the 2010s. Though I see stuff about separate girls' troops. In fact on this they lag the original organisation: what's now called The Scout Association allowed admission of girls at all levels in 1991 and made it mandatory in 2007. (Too lazy to cite better sources than Wikipedia.) As a former Girl Guide, I regret this.

In my area, despite the Boy Scouts' move to co-ed, the Girl Scouts still seem to be very much alive. I don't know enough about scouting to say, but I would suspect their girl target audiences do not completely overlap.

[Anroth]

Boy Scouts of America went basically co-ed in the 2010s. Though I see stuff about separate girls' troops. In fact on this they lag the original organisation: what's now called The Scout Association allowed admission of girls at all levels in 1991 and made it mandatory in 2007. (Too lazy to cite better sources than Wikipedia.) As a former Girl Guide, I regret this.

In my area, despite the Boy Scouts' move to co-ed, the Girl Scouts still seem to be very much alive. I don't know enough about scouting to say, but I would suspect their girl target audiences do not completely overlap.

Not completely overlapping, but it really depends more on how the Guides/Girl scouts are run in your country. When you have a group that is often led by quite religious people, females will get the short end of the stick in what is encouraged.

The scout troop I belonged to in the UK went co-op at least 5 years before it was 'official' to do so (late 80's in the UK) and basically killed off the girl guides who met in the same hall/affliated. Because the guides leadership were not interested in doing exciting non-'ladylike' activities. So en-masse about 80% of them joined our scout troop to do the usual scouting activities. (And also from a personal perspective, some REALLY exciting mutual non-scouting activities.)

Guides ended up having to merge with another two groups further away just to stay viable.

[Elinruby]

Boy Scouts of America went basically co-ed in the 2010s. Though I see stuff about separate girls' troops. In fact on this they lag the original organisation: what's now called The Scout Association allowed admission of girls at all levels in 1991 and made it mandatory in 2007. (Too lazy to cite better sources than Wikipedia.) As a former Girl Guide, I regret this.

there is something to be said for same-sex grouping in the Years of Hormone Raging but I personally think it should be voluntary, or it is the same sort of thinking that kept women out of medicine

[spp]

Mr. Phelps, if I were you, I would look a lot deeper into the user that you "admired" and quote on the COI noticeboard. Especially as the BSA fanatic that you are.

[rnu]

Mr. Phelps, if I were you, I would look a lot deeper into the user that you "admired" and quote on the COI noticeboard. Especially as the BSA fanatic that you are.

Was there something revdelled or were they really blocked almost a year after their last edit?

[spp]

Was there something revdelled or were they really blocked almost a year after their last edit?

I swear I remember something there here was discussing Kintetsu, Catfish Jim saw it, and well, you see the block reason. But for the life of me I can't find that thread.

[spp]

Yep, here we go..

Sometimes you need the right person to be in the right place at the right time. The fact that it has stuck without anyone unblocking is amazing.

Edit: Even was brought up by an IP and dropped. (and brought up multiple times actually...).

[rnu]

Yep, here we go..

Sometimes you need the right person to be in the right place at the right time. The fact that it has stuck without anyone unblocking is amazing.

Edit: Even was brought up by an IP and dropped. (and brought up multiple times actually...).

Wow. That certainly explains why he was blocked even though he was not active at the time.
https://wikipediocracy.com/meet-the-edi ... subuffalo/