Orain hosts white supremacist wiki

Michaeldsuarez · Unread post by **Michaeldsuarez** » Mon Jan 19, 2015 2:59 pm

Mikemikev and his friends created their own racist encyclopedia. It's hosted by "orain.org" (contact them and complain).

Michaeldsuarez · Unread post by **Michaeldsuarez** » Mon Jan 19, 2015 3:25 pm

I've contacted "Dusti", and I left a message on their "Main Page", but an outpour of many additional messages demanding the removal of the wiki would be helpful.

Michaeldsuarez · Unread post by **Michaeldsuarez** » Mon Jan 19, 2015 3:44 pm

https://meta.orain.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Main_Page&diff=11541&oldid=11539:

Hi, we do not delete wikis in general but if there are enough reasons to do so, we will. Please email us at staff(at)orain.org with as much information as needed. Thanks. [[User:Southparkfan|Southparkfan]] ([[User talk:Southparkfan|talk]]) 15:24, 19 January 2015 (GMT)

I'm not really interested in having a private discussion with a a group of Wikipedians pretending to be professionals. Emailing ArbCom is already painful enough.

Jim · Unread post by **Jim** » Mon Jan 19, 2015 4:48 pm

Michaeldsuarez wrote:I'm not really interested in having a private discussion with a a group of Wikipedians pretending to be professionals.

Then don't.

Here's Dusti, by the way, courtesy of tarantino:

tarantino wrote:Here's Dusti on youtube from 2011.

You can't clean all the crap off the internet, Michael, nor would anyone expect you to. Stormfront and its ilk will still be there.

Michaeldsuarez · Unread post by **Michaeldsuarez** » Mon Jan 19, 2015 4:59 pm

I've updated the ED article on RightWiki's founder "Fiala1" / "Hu1" (NSFW). Maybe I should send that article to "staff(at)orain.org" as evidence.

Jim · Unread post by **Jim** » Mon Jan 19, 2015 5:09 pm

Michaeldsuarez wrote:I've updated the ED article on RightWiki's founder "Fiala1" / "Hu1" (NSFW). Maybe I should send that article to "staff(at)orain.org" as evidence.

Well, he looks like a prick, but 3 things to consider:

1. ED articles aren't really much good as "evidence" unless you have a sympathetic audience - in fact it could be counterproductive.
2. The thing'll probably flop and be invisible, Google Juice wise, to anyone but the racists who write it anyway.
3. They'll only take it down if they want to.

I mean, yeah, send it if you like, but don't lose sleep over it.

Vigilant · Unread post by **Vigilant** » Mon Jan 19, 2015 5:31 pm

Jim wrote:
Michaeldsuarez wrote:I've updated the ED article on RightWiki's founder "Fiala1" / "Hu1" (NSFW). Maybe I should send that article to "staff(at)orain.org" as evidence.
Well, he looks like a prick, but 3 things to consider:

1. ED articles aren't really much good as "evidence" unless you have a sympathetic audience - in fact it could be counterproductive.
2. The thing'll probably flop and be invisible, Google Juice wise, to anyone but the racists who write it anyway.
3. They'll only take it down if they want to.

I mean, yeah, send it if you like, but don't lose sleep over it.

The bolded part.

They're going to be the WhitePowerOffWiki.

Michaeldsuarez · Unread post by **Michaeldsuarez** » Mon Jan 19, 2015 5:44 pm

I was watching meta.orain.org's Recent Changes page, and I saw a familiar pseudonym:

https://meta.orain.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&type=globalauth&page=User%3AGauisMarius%40global

17:24, 19 January 2015 Dusti (Talk | contribs) changed status for global account "User:GauisMarius@global": Set locked; Unset (none) (ToU lock)

https://meta.orain.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:GauisMarius&diff=11544

== Your global account has been disabled ==

Your global account has been disabled under provisions within our [[Terms of Use]] policy and your IP address globally blocked. If you have any questions, please contact me direct at dusti(at)orain(dot)org. [[User:Dusti|'''Dusti''']][[User talk:Dusti|*Let's talk!*]] 17:30, 19 January 2015 (GMT)

"GauisMarius" is a pseudonym of the panties-obsessed pedophile "TGcomix" (NSFW, note: this is a link to spankingart.org, not to the NSFW site I usually link to). TGcomix requested a wiki from orain.org back in December.

It's nice to know that orain.org has zero tolerance towards pedophiles. Let's hope that orain.org deals with Fiala1 the same way that they dealt with TGcomix.

Michaeldsuarez · Unread post by **Michaeldsuarez** » Mon Jan 19, 2015 8:34 pm

For the record, this is the Email that I've sent to Orain.org:

Hi, I'm a web archivist and documentarian. You might know me as a sysop at Encyclopedia Dramatica. For over a year, my colleagues and I have been documenting events at a dysfunctional and racist online encyclopedia known as "Metapedia". We've created articles for several current and former Metapedia sysops including Mikemikev, Basileus, Hu1, and Crusader888.

Recently, I've learned of a thread at Stormfront where ex-Metapedia users spoke of creating a new wiki for themselves. One of the individuals involved (Mikemikev) gave away the address of their new wiki:

https://www.stormfront.org/forum/t1076604-8/#post12594820

The domain is right.orain.org, which means that Orain is responsible for hosting them.

Several days later, another Stormfront user (snuki146) spoke as if he held a prodominate role at "RightWiki" / "Rightpedia":

https://www.stormfront.org/forum/t1076604-8/#post12606133

Viewing right.orain.org and who requested it, it became evident to me that "snuki146" is actually the found of RightWiki "Fiala1" and that "Fiala1" was once "Hu1" at Metapedia. Encyclopedia Dramatica has an article on Hu1 / Fiala1:

https://encyclopediadramatica.se/Fiala1

The article isn't "safe for work", and it's intentionally offensive, but it is still informative. At the English Metapedia, Hu1 operated a bot called "Enadmin" ("English [Metapedia] Admin"), and at RightWiki, Fiala1 operates a bot called "Radmin" ("RightWiki Admin").

At RightWiki, Fiala1 (and his Radmin bot) contributes racist, often anti-Semitic content. Here are some examples of such content (remember, you're hosting this content):

https://right.orain.org/wiki/Template:J

https://right.orain.org/wiki/File:Jew_easteuro.jpg

https://right.orain.org/wiki/File:Drawings_of_jews_over_thousands_of_years.jpg

https://right.orain.org/wiki/Khazar_Jews

https://right.orain.org/wiki/Comic_book

https://right.orain.org/wiki/List_of_Jewish_controlled_newspapers

https://right.orain.org/wiki/Homosexualism

https://right.orain.org/wiki/Sexual_Bolshevism

https://right.orain.org/wiki/Cultural_Marxism

Does Orain wish to continue hosting content that adds yellow stars next to the names of Jews? I hope not. I hope that Orain decides to delete right.orain.org and bar its founder from creating similar wikis.

Michael Suarez

Now, how many other Wikipedians can honestly say that they spent Martin Luther King, Jr. Day fighting against organized racism?

Michaeldsuarez · Unread post by **Michaeldsuarez** » Tue Jan 20, 2015 2:02 pm

Hi Michael,

Thank you for contacting us.

Orain does not remove wikis or censor content unless it's in violation of the law.

Regards,
Dusti

I'm going to spend them a second Email. If they won't do anything about blatant racism, then perhaps they'll take action against blatant libel.

@Mods: Can a mod please rename this thread to "Orain hosts Metapedia 2.0" and move it to a public forum? I didn't realize that Orain was operated by Wikipedians at the time that I created the thread, so it isn't really "off-topic". Plus, I want the public to know how difficult it is to convince Orain to take action against right.orain.org.

Jim · Unread post by **Jim** » Tue Jan 20, 2015 2:37 pm

Michaeldsuarez wrote:
Hi Michael,

Thank you for contacting us.

Orain does not remove wikis or censor content unless it's in violation of the law.

Regards,
Dusti
I'm going to spend them a second Email. If they won't do anything about blatant racism, then perhaps they'll take action against blatant libel.

@Mods: Can a mod please rename this thread to "Orain hosts Metapedia 2.0" and move it to a public forum? I didn't realize that Orain was operated by Wikipedians at the time that I created the thread, so it isn't really "off-topic". Plus, I want the public to know how difficult it is to convince Orain to take action against right.orain.org.

Michael, I clicked the "report" thingy, because I agree that renaming/moving the thread would be a good thing.

Do you think you could come up with an even better, more informative, evocative, topic title before the emergency services arrive, move it, and delete these last couple of posts?

My creativity is at minimum - nearly bedtime.

Michaeldsuarez · Unread post by **Michaeldsuarez** » Tue Jan 20, 2015 2:51 pm

My latest Email to Orain:

I have another concern about right.orain.org. It hosts libelous content. For example, right.orain.org's article on "Leonard Zeskind" contains a gallery of dead bodies:

https://right.orain.org/wiki/Leonard_Zeskind#Gallery

I believe that it's libelous to imply that Leonard Zeskind has anything to do with those dead bodies. The same thing is done to the article on Gerry Gable:

https://right.orain.org/wiki/Gerry_Gable#Gallery

The article on Mark Potok also contains a caption that says, "Mark Potok resembles the mass murderer Lev Bronstein aka Trotsky":

https://right.orain.org/wiki/Mark_Potok

The article on Nick Lowles accuses him of promoting genocide and contains a gallery of murdered children:

https://right.orain.org/wiki/Nick_Lowles

All these people with articles on right.orain.org are eventually going to complain to Orain or complain about Orain to the media. It's in Orain's best interests to take right.orain.org before people far more influencial than me takes notice. I'm offering Orain sound advice here.

Michael Suarez

(I should've proofread the final paragraph. I misspelled "influential" and I forgot to add the word "down" between ".org" and "before".)

Update: I've sent them a new copy of the Email with the typos and missing words fixed.

Jim wrote:Michael, I clicked the "report" thingy, because I agree that renaming/moving the thread would be a good thing.

Do you think you could come up with an even better, more informative, evocative, topic title before the emergency services arrive, move it, and delete these last couple of posts?

My creativity is at minimum - nearly bedtime.

Thanks for the help. Perhaps "Orain hosts white supremacist wiki" would be a more informative title.

Unread post by **Zoloft** » Tue Jan 20, 2015 3:00 pm

Did requested changes. Left posts requesting changes in place.

Michaeldsuarez · Unread post by **Michaeldsuarez** » Tue Jan 20, 2015 3:10 pm

Zoloft wrote:Did requested changes. Left posts requesting changes in place.

Thanks.

GethN7 · Unread post by **GethN7** » Tue Jan 20, 2015 8:02 pm

Michaeldsuarez, while Dusti has probably already sent you our official response, I am responding here of my own initiative, so please do not take anything I say as official policy, just my own opinion, unless stated otherwise.

That said, I do sympathize with your views on Metapedia, whose's POV I have contempt for, and in that regard, I would have supported RightWiki's removal and done so had I been the one making the executive decisions.

Currently, I have a voice at the table, but I don't execute the leading judgment calls, so I must go along with our group consensus, which was along the lines of not removing any wiki unless it's proven they are breaking laws, and while I certainly agree with your position and find much of what they posted rather odious, our staff committee decided that as long as no legal barrier have been broken, we have no cause to silence anyone, however odious their views are.

It should be made clear, though, that I am firmly anti-censorship (I founded a wiki in opposition to TV Tropes heavily based on that principle), and I am prepared to tolerate harsh criticism of what we do and how our wiki conducts itself in the public eye because I believe criticism is good, and one of the things we did was allow a lot of the controversial material back to our fork, such as pages on adult works, because we felt they were relevant to the site mission. We left out things like Troper Tales/Fetish because not only were they off mission, they were also disgusting, disturbing and some of their content was potentially illegal, or at least teetered on the edge and we decided it wasn't worth the risk to keep.

That said, as applied to this fork of Metapedia, I'm prepared to ignore their content as long as they don't cross legal lines. If they do, I will be the first to want them removed, and will even pull the plug myself if I have to, but as long as their content is odious and vile yet not illegal, I will pull a Voltaire and defend their right to say it despite my own personal morality.

However, to my knowledge, they haven't done that, but if they do, and in this case I am speaking on Orain's behalf, we will act on it ASAP.

Back to my personal views, I understand you are affiliated with Encyclopedia Dramatica, and to be honest, I find ED hilarious and entertaining, and to be utterly crass, if you guys were to call me a faggot, I'd laugh. That said, I must confess I do find it ironic anyone from ED would raise hackles over the issue of offensive content when ED's own "Offended" page is probably more offensive than half the internet (albiet that's the point).

Regardless, I do want to reiterate, and I speak again as Orain staff: If you bring us hard proof they have crossed the legal line, not just moral ones, we will bring down the hammer.

Michaeldsuarez · Unread post by **Michaeldsuarez** » Tue Jan 20, 2015 9:32 pm

GethN7 wrote:Michaeldsuarez, while Dusti has probably already sent you our official response, I am responding here of my own initiative, so please do not take anything I say as official policy, just my own opinion, unless stated otherwise.

That said, I do sympathize with your views on Metapedia, whose's POV I have contempt for, and in that regard, I would have supported RightWiki's removal and done so had I been the one making the executive decisions.

Currently, I have a voice at the table, but I don't execute the leading judgment calls, so I must go along with our group consensus, which was along the lines of not removing any wiki unless it's proven they are breaking laws, and while I certainly agree with your position and find much of what they posted rather odious, our staff committee decided that as long as no legal barrier have been broken, we have no cause to silence anyone, however odious their views are.

It should be made clear, though, that I am firmly anti-censorship (I founded a wiki in opposition to TV Tropes heavily based on that principle), and I am prepared to tolerate harsh criticism of what we do and how our wiki conducts itself in the public eye because I believe criticism is good, and one of the things we did was allow a lot of the controversial material back to our fork, such as pages on adult works, because we felt they were relevant to the site mission. We left out things like Troper Tales/Fetish because not only were they off mission, they were also disgusting, disturbing and some of their content was potentially illegal, or at least teetered on the edge and we decided it wasn't worth the risk to keep.

That said, as applied to this fork of Metapedia, I'm prepared to ignore their content as long as they don't cross legal lines. If they do, I will be the first to want them removed, and will even pull the plug myself if I have to, but as long as their content is odious and vile yet not illegal, I will pull a Voltaire and defend their right to say it despite my own personal morality.

However, to my knowledge, they haven't done that, but if they do, and in this case I am speaking on Orain's behalf, we will act on it ASAP.

Back to my personal views, I understand you are affiliated with Encyclopedia Dramatica, and to be honest, I find ED hilarious and entertaining, and to be utterly crass, if you guys were to call me a faggot, I'd laugh. That said, I must confess I do find it ironic anyone from ED would raise hackles over the issue of offensive content when ED's own "Offended" page is probably more offensive than half the internet (albiet that's the point).

Regardless, I do want to reiterate, and I speak again as Orain staff: If you bring us hard proof they have crossed the legal line, not just moral ones, we will bring down the hammer.

The problem is Orain is now taking advantage of donors who don't know about right.orain.org to fund right.orain.org with donation money. With ED, donors know exactly what they're funding. You ought to mention right.orain.org on your "MediaWiki:Sitenotice" page in order to ensure that your donors are informed about what their money is being used for. Hosting right.orain.org with money from unwitting donors is immoral in and of itself.

GethN7 · Unread post by **GethN7** » Tue Jan 20, 2015 9:47 pm

Michaeldsuarez wrote: The problem is Orain is now taking advantage of donors who don't know about right.orain.org to fund right.orain.org with donation money. With ED, donors know exactly what they're funding. You ought to mention right.orain.org on your "MediaWiki:Sitenotice" page in order to ensure that your donors are informed about what their money is being used for. Hosting right.orain.org with money from unwitting donors is immoral in and of itself.

Our funds host anyone who wants a wiki - promoting freedom of speech which you're trying to suppress - Dusti, quoted with permission.

For what it's worth, I agree with him. Our fundraiser is for the wiki farm as an entity, not just the one you are referring to, and people are donating so that ALL wikis on the farm can prosper, not just the Neo-Nazi wiki you are castigating as worse than Hitler, if you pardon the irony/Godwin's Law.

In fact, regardless of their views, the founder of RightWiki has been respectful to us, has answered our questions when confronted with any issues we raise, and has not been abusive to anyone else on Orain to our knowledge.

Until we have just cause as we have defined previous, sorry, but they stay as long as they don't give us cause to remove them.

Notvelty · Unread post by **Notvelty** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 12:14 am

GethN7:

Your arguments.hold no water at all.

1) Michael is not trying to censor you, he is using his freedom of speech in response to your use of yours.

2) Freedom of speech does.not require you to give a platform to speech. By giving a platform to offensive speech, you are not simply showing that you support their right to speech, you are supporting that speech.

3) Your donors have a right to know what their money is supporting; and those who do business with your donors have a right to know what kind of speech you are supporting.

Jim · Unread post by **Jim** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 12:36 am

GethN7 wrote:We left out things like Troper Tales/Fetish because not only were they off mission, they were also disgusting, disturbing and some of their content was potentially illegal, or at least teetered on the edge and we decided it wasn't worth the risk to keep.

That's the kind of good judgement you should be using in this case.

Hosting racist/offensive content reflects poorly on Orain, and will potentially be detrimental to, and reflect similarly on, the users of other content you host.
You owe it to your good faith users/customers not to risk associating them with this type of content.
My 2c.

SB_Johnny · Unread post by **SB_Johnny** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 12:48 am

Michaeldsuarez wrote:Now, how many other Wikipedians can honestly say that they spent Martin Luther King, Jr. Day fighting against organized racism?

Indeed! Shall we start fundraising for a monument to celebrate your sacrificing your day off to save those poor colored people from those idiotic mean people on the intertubes?

GethN7 · Unread post by **GethN7** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 1:18 am

Notvelty wrote:GethN7:

Your arguments.hold no water at all.

1) Michael is not trying to censor you, he is using his freedom of speech in response to your use of yours.

2) Freedom of speech does.not require you to give a platform to speech. By giving a platform to offensive speech, you are not simply showing that you support their right to speech, you are supporting that speech.

3) Your donors have a right to know what their money is supporting; and those who do business with your donors have a right to know what kind of speech you are supporting.

My rebuttal:

1. I never said he was, though if we did as he asked, it would have that result for the topic at hand, would it not?

2. I guess that's true then. But that means a wiki with views opposite everything RightWiki stands for can share the same wiki farm service, can it not? If so, we would allow them space as well. We are not partial to anyone.

3. Our donors do know what our money goes to, and were happy to explain further via various methods of communication should the need to do so arise. and they know we allow any wiki so long as its content don't break laws. We do not hide this information, and since RightWiki is public, we do not hide its contents from public scrutiny.

Also, bear in mind I am just one voice at the table (Dusti has the make or break executive decision making power), and I am here as a courtesy. I'm certainly partial to the view RightWiki should be shut down on moral grounds, but as Orain Staff, I must put my prejudice aside in view of our policy of allowing wikis on any subject so long as that subject is legal to discuss.

So far, we have received no complaints from the Orain community at large about this, and until we do, we do not feel the need to act unless given clear cause under our Terms of Use.

Notvelty · Unread post by **Notvelty** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 1:26 am

GethN7 wrote:
Notvelty wrote:GethN7:

Your arguments.hold no water at all.

1) Michael is not trying to censor you, he is using his freedom of speech in response to your use of yours.

2) Freedom of speech does.not require you to give a platform to speech. By giving a platform to offensive speech, you are not simply showing that you support their right to speech, you are supporting that speech.

3) Your donors have a right to know what their money is supporting; and those who do business with your donors have a right to know what kind of speech you are supporting.
My rebuttal:

1. I never said he was, though if we did as he asked, it would have that result for the topic at hand, would it not?

2. I guess that's true then. But that means a wiki with views opposite everything RightWiki stands for can share the same wiki farm service, can it not? If so, we would allow them space as well. We are not partial to anyone.

3. Our donors do know what our money goes to, and were happy to explain further via various methods of communication should the need to do so arise. and they know we allow any wiki so long as its content don't break laws. We do not hide this information, and since RightWiki is public, we do not hide its contents from public scrutiny.

Also, bear in mind I am just one voice at the table (Dusti has the make or break executive decision making power), and I am here as a courtesy. I'm certainly partial to the view RightWiki should be shut down on moral grounds, but as Orain Staff, I must put my prejudice aside in view of our policy of allowing wikis on any subject so long as that subject is legal to discuss.

So far, we have received no complaints from the Orain community at large about this, and until we do, we do not feel the need to act unless given clear cause under our Terms of Use.

While I accept that I am mistaken in my presentation of point 1, I'm afraid the rest of it is still garbage. You are responsible for what you help publish; not just to your members, but to the entire community.

Failing to act is itself moral judgement, not a get out clause.

Jim · Unread post by **Jim** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 1:30 am

GethN7 wrote:Dusti has the make or break executive decision making power

With Great Power Comes Great Responsibility

GethN7 · Unread post by **GethN7** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 1:38 am

Well, for the record, I stand by Dusti's decision to allow them free speech (he's an openly gay man allowing people who have no love for homosexuals to say what they want, that's mighty tolerant of him if you ask me, and that makes him a very noble human being for having such tolerance IMO), and at the risk of being rude, I again remind Michael and his supporters I find it beyond ironic anyone from ED is begging us to shut down a wiki with offensive content, and as stated before, until we have due cause, we aren't changing our minds.

Unread post by **tarantino** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 1:47 am

SB_Johnny wrote:
Michaeldsuarez wrote:Now, how many other Wikipedians can honestly say that they spent Martin Luther King, Jr. Day fighting against organized racism?
Indeed! Shall we start fundraising for a monument to celebrate your sacrificing your day off to save those poor colored people from those idiotic mean people on the intertubes?

While black people are treated as niggers on ED, it's OK because they're just kidding.

Johnny Au · Unread post by **Johnny Au** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 3:05 am

GethN7, would it be acceptable if someone were to set up a wiki on Orain promoting Stalinism/Maoism, Marxist-Leninism, ecoterrorism, or other such ideologies to counter that of bigoted far-right wikis?

I would like to see Marxist wikis and equality to all.

Notvelty · Unread post by **Notvelty** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 3:10 am

GethN7 wrote:Well, for the record, I stand by Dusti's decision to allow them free speech (he's an openly gay man allowing people who have no love for homosexuals to say what they want, that's mighty tolerant of him if you ask me, and that makes him a very noble human being for having such tolerance IMO), and at the risk of being rude, I again remind Michael and his supporters I find it beyond ironic anyone from ED is begging us to shut down a wiki with offensive content, and as stated before, until we have due cause, we aren't changing our minds.

You are not allowing or disallowing them free speech, you are supporting then by supplying them with a platform.

I am not supporting Michael, except by accident of purpose and to link me with ED is simply dishonest.

The word to describe someone supplying a platform for hate speech is not "tolerant". Nor is "but most of my friends are gay" relevant in any way.

Notvelty · Unread post by **Notvelty** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 3:16 am

tarantino wrote:
SB_Johnny wrote:
Michaeldsuarez wrote:Now, how many other Wikipedians can honestly say that they spent Martin Luther King, Jr. Day fighting against organized racism?
Indeed! Shall we start fundraising for a monument to celebrate your sacrificing your day off to save those poor colored people from those idiotic mean people on the intertubes?
While black people are treated as niggers on ED, it's OK because they're just kidding.

ED is a bunch of children behaving like children. They all need to finish their homework and then be removed from their computers.

Notvelty · Unread post by **Notvelty** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 3:18 am

Johnny Au wrote:GethN7, would it be acceptable if someone were to set up a wiki on Orain promoting Stalinism/Maoism, Marxist-Leninism, ecoterrorism, or other such ideologies to counter that of bigoted far-right wikis?

I would like to see Marxist wikis and equality to all.

It's like the 20th century didn't happen.

GethN7 · Unread post by **GethN7** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 3:34 am

Johnny Au wrote:GethN7, would it be acceptable if someone were to set up a wiki on Orain promoting Stalinism/Maoism, Marxist-Leninism, ecoterrorism, or other such ideologies to counter that of bigoted far-right wikis?

I would like to see Marxist wikis and equality to all.

I didn't mean counter. I meant Orain supports all wikis, regardless of ideological slant, so long as their contents are not illegal.

Notvelty wrote: You are not allowing or disallowing them free speech, you are supporting then by supplying them with a platform.

I am not supporting Michael, except by accident of purpose and to link me with ED is simply dishonest.

The word to describe someone supplying a platform for hate speech is not "tolerant". Nor is "but most of my friends are gay" relevant in any way.

My rebuttal:

To allow something is not the same as giving approval to something. Freedom of expression allows all sorts of expression, even that which might be offensive to others.

Second, I apologize for my assumption, you have my apology.

Third, that was not intention of my comment. My comment was that the founder of the site is willing to host wikis in direct opposition to his lifestyle choices because he puts freedom to form a community on a web domain he hosts, even a controversial one, above his own personal mores, and is willing tolerate speech offensive to others and even himself so long as it does not incite criminal activity. For the record, I applaud that choice, and if you do not, we will have to agree to disagree.

Finally, unless we come across a ToU violation, it's not coming down, and that is on the record as an Orain Staff member. Again, if you do not like that or think ill of us for that, that is your choice, but we have made our decision on this matter.

GethN7 · Unread post by **GethN7** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 5:53 am

Michaeldsuarez, I have to ask, was this really necessary?

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Rightpedia

Especially the last sentence:

"Rightpedia is hosted by Orain, and the Orain staff are all too happy to provide hosting for Rightpedia"

That is false. I said many of us have personal moral objections to their content, but they have followed the rules and made attempts to make up for times they may have erred in doing so, and out of respect for their right to speech we may disagree with in accordance with our terms of service, we are not taking them down so long as they continue to not cross legal lines.

THAT is our current position, or do you not care and wrote that to distort my own words and twist them to suit your interpretation of our motives?

If so, I'm disappointed you felt the need to twist my words and write what appears to be a hit piece demonizing us for taking a stand regarding the right to express oneself as long as no crimes are committed by doing so.

Update; I left a correction here, with a transparent edit reason so my bias can be measured against my actual motives:

http://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?tit ... id=1411022

thekohser · Unread post by **thekohser** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 1:32 pm

GethN7 wrote:...I do sympathize with your views on Metapedia, whose's POV I have contempt for

We're really reaching new depths in language, aren't we?

Michaeldsuarez · Unread post by **Michaeldsuarez** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 2:31 pm

GethN7 wrote:Michaeldsuarez, I have to ask, was this really necessary?

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Rightpedia

Especially the last sentence:

"Rightpedia is hosted by Orain, and the Orain staff are all too happy to provide hosting for Rightpedia"

That is false. I said many of us have personal moral objections to their content, but they have followed the rules and made attempts to make up for times they may have erred in doing so, and out of respect for their right to speech we may disagree with in accordance with our terms of service, we are not taking them down so long as they continue to not cross legal lines.

THAT is our current position, or do you not care and wrote that to distort my own words and twist them to suit your interpretation of our motives?

If so, I'm disappointed you felt the need to twist my words and write what appears to be a hit piece demonizing us for taking a stand regarding the right to express oneself as long as no crimes are committed by doing so.

Update; I left a correction here, with a transparent edit reason so my bias can be measured against my actual motives:

http://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Rightpedia&diff=1411087&oldid=1411022

Hey, look: I actually got a Orain staff member to change something somewhere. It's too bad that I can't get them to change anything on their own website, despite right.orain.org having "distorted", "twisted", and "demonizing" content on other people. It's funny how GethN7 cares about how he's portrayed and does something about it, yet he doesn't care or do anything about how other people are portrayed.

Jim · Unread post by **Jim** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 2:50 pm

Michaeldsuarez wrote:Hey, look: I actually got a Orain staff member to change something somewhere. It's too bad that I can't get them to change anything on their own website, despite right.orain.org having "distorted" and "twisted" content.

Michael, I think Orain should not host this site.

I think attempts to argue against this, by saying "Hey, Michael's an ED guy - look what they host" are somewhat spurious in that they address the complainer, and not the complaint.
Especially when such arguments are erroneously extended to include good faith folks like Notvelty, who merely voiced an opinion, entirely separate to yours.

But I do think you do need to realise the realities of the world. You come here arguing for the removal of a site you don't like, because it's offensive, yet you are a sysop of a site that many find truly offensive.
You argue that this particular site should be removed (I happen to agree), yet elsewhere on this site, and at Commons, you argue that all points of view must always be heard, however offensive, and that shutting down "free speech" is always wrong.

Please don't be astonished if some query the consistency of these positions.

Michaeldsuarez · Unread post by **Michaeldsuarez** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 3:35 pm

Jim wrote:Michael, I think Orain should not host this site.

I think attempts to argue against this, by saying "Hey, Michael's an ED guy - look what they host" are somewhat spurious in that they address the complainer, and not the complaint.
Especially when such arguments are erroneously extended to include good faith folks like Notvelty, who merely voiced an opinion, entirely separate to yours.

But I do think you do need to realise the realities of the world. You come here arguing for the removal of a site you don't like, because it's offensive, yet you are a sysop of a site that many find truly offensive.
You argue that this particular site should be removed (I happen to agree), yet elsewhere on this site, and at Commons, you argue that all points of view must always be heard, however offensive, and that shutting down "free speech" is always wrong.

Please don't be astonished if some query the consistency of these positions.

I'm a prankster and a jokester. I like making things happen. When I saw Rightpedia being hosting on a wikifarm, I envisioned a campaign of isolation and frustration. I wanted to follow them from one wikifarm to another, frustrate their efforts, and record the results in ED, but I misjudged Orain. This is going to sound lame: "I did it for the lulz".

Well, this game is clearly over. Time to move on to something else.

Jim · Unread post by **Jim** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 3:38 pm

Michaeldsuarez wrote:This is going to sound lame: "I did it for the lulz".

It sounds lame. But it's you. Never change, Michael.

That's not an insult, by the way.

GethN7 · Unread post by **GethN7** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 6:09 pm

Michaeldsuarez wrote:
Jim wrote:Michael, I think Orain should not host this site.

I think attempts to argue against this, by saying "Hey, Michael's an ED guy - look what they host" are somewhat spurious in that they address the complainer, and not the complaint.
Especially when such arguments are erroneously extended to include good faith folks like Notvelty, who merely voiced an opinion, entirely separate to yours.

But I do think you do need to realise the realities of the world. You come here arguing for the removal of a site you don't like, because it's offensive, yet you are a sysop of a site that many find truly offensive.
You argue that this particular site should be removed (I happen to agree), yet elsewhere on this site, and at Commons, you argue that all points of view must always be heard, however offensive, and that shutting down "free speech" is always wrong.

Please don't be astonished if some query the consistency of these positions.
I'm a prankster and a jokester. I like making things happen. When I saw Rightpedia being hosting on a wikifarm, I envisioned a campaign of isolation and frustration. I wanted to follow them from one wikifarm to another, frustrate their efforts, and record the results in ED, but I misjudged Orain. This is going to sound lame: "I did it for the lulz".

Well, this game is clearly over. Time to move on to something else.

Michael, I'm gratified you've come to see the light of reason.

Jim, you made an excellent point, my points about Michael's affiliations did come off as spurious, I'll give you that, and I did make some foolish assumption, for which I will publicly apologize to all parties I may have offended, yourself included.

Poetlister · Unread post by **Poetlister** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 1:12 pm

Michaeldsuarez wrote:It's funny how GethN7 cares about how he's portrayed and does something about it, yet he doesn't care or do anything about how other people are portrayed.

What's funny about that? It's the attitude of most people deeply into the Wikiworld, even Dr. Wales.

Notvelty · Unread post by **Notvelty** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 12:04 am

GethN7 wrote:
Johnny Au wrote:GethN7, would it be acceptable if someone were to set up a wiki on Orain promoting Stalinism/Maoism, Marxist-Leninism, ecoterrorism, or other such ideologies to counter that of bigoted far-right wikis?

I would like to see Marxist wikis and equality to all.
I didn't mean counter. I meant Orain supports all wikis, regardless of ideological slant, so long as their contents are not illegal.

Notvelty wrote: You are not allowing or disallowing them free speech, you are supporting then by supplying them with a platform.

I am not supporting Michael, except by accident of purpose and to link me with ED is simply dishonest.

The word to describe someone supplying a platform for hate speech is not "tolerant". Nor is "but most of my friends are gay" relevant in any way.
My rebuttal:

To allow something is not the same as giving approval to something. Freedom of expression allows all sorts of expression, even that which might be offensive to others.

Second, I apologize for my assumption, you have my apology.

Third, that was not intention of my comment. My comment was that the founder of the site is willing to host wikis in direct opposition to his lifestyle choices because he puts freedom to form a community on a web domain he hosts, even a controversial one, above his own personal mores, and is willing tolerate speech offensive to others and even himself so long as it does not incite criminal activity. For the record, I applaud that choice, and if you do not, we will have to agree to disagree.

Finally, unless we come across a ToU violation, it's not coming down, and that is on the record as an Orain Staff member. Again, if you do not like that or think ill of us for that, that is your choice, but we have made our decision on this matter.

Fair enough.

Notvelty · Unread post by **Notvelty** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 12:08 am

Jim wrote:
Michaeldsuarez wrote:This is going to sound lame: "I did it for the lulz".
It sounds lame. But it's you. Never change, Michael.

That's not an insult, by the way.

I'd wonder how he's hoping to ever get someone to take him seriously if there must always be some chance that he's "doing it for the lulz".

Although call me cynical - I reckon he's doing a Tarc. In that case, the lesson is "you can't please everyone".

Michaeldsuarez · Unread post by **Michaeldsuarez** » Mon Feb 09, 2015 3:05 pm

I finally managed to have Dusti intervene in a dispute at Rightpedia, although it was a dispute regarding the contents of my userpage rather than the contents of an article:

https://meta.orain.org/wiki/User_talk:Dusti#My_right.orain.org_userpage

https://right.orain.org/wiki/Rightwiki_talk:Community_portal#Notice_of_local_steward_action

https://right.orain.org/wiki/User_talk:Mikemikev#Notice_of_steward_action

It also resulted in Rightpedia adopting an anti-doxing policy:

https://right.orain.org/w/index.php?title=Rightwiki:Content_guidelines&diff=95726&oldid=55131

https://right.orain.org/w/index.php?title=Doxxing&diff=95723

This means that the deleted articles created by Basileus at Metapedia on Wikipedians won't be recovered or published at Rightpedia, and they seem to know it.

In other news, the Rightpedians are debating about whether Larry Sanger is Jewish or not.

EricBarbour · Unread post by **EricBarbour** » Tue Feb 10, 2015 4:56 am

Michaeldsuarez wrote:In other news, the Rightpedians are debating about whether Larry Sanger is Jewish or not.

I'll take the offensive, insulting bullshit on ED over that any day.

GethN7 · Unread post by **GethN7** » Tue Feb 10, 2015 5:17 am

EricBarbour wrote:
Michaeldsuarez wrote:In other news, the Rightpedians are debating about whether Larry Sanger is Jewish or not.
I'll take the offensive, insulting bullshit on ED over that any day.

Frankly, I agree with you, at least in principle.

In terms of whether this going to persuade Orain to shut them down, not a chance. It's morally repulsive to me, won't deny it, but if they want to arbitrarily start using "jew" as a pejorative (which, I might add, ED does quite a few entities, even puts a star next to their names with a template very similar to RightWiki) on their ideologically based Wikipedia spinoff, then so be it.

Again, we at Orain have personal moral reservations about their beliefs, but we remain firm on their ability to express them, so long as they don't incite criminal activity or host content that is illegal (immoral does not qualify as illegal, even though I find a lot of their content falls under that definition as far as my personal morality is concerned), they have every right to their beliefs, repulsive to the morality of others they may be.

Johnny Au · Unread post by **Johnny Au** » Tue Feb 10, 2015 9:13 pm

Don't forget that Germany has laws prohibiting depictions of Nazi-related symbols (especially the swastika).

GethN7 · Unread post by **GethN7** » Wed Feb 11, 2015 2:32 am

Johnny Au wrote:Don't forget that Germany has laws prohibiting depictions of Nazi-related symbols (especially the swastika).

To my knowledge, we are hosted with DigitalOcean at present, which is American based, and thus our hosted content falls under that jurisdiction, and thus none of our content base on any wiki, is, to our knowledge, in violation of any law or statute. If we do change servers at any time, it is high priority for us to fully investigate the legal jurisdictions in advance to determine if any of our hosted wikis would be in violation.

Also, Germany does prevent depictions of the swastika and most Nazi material except for anything the historical or academic sense, pursuant to what is properly defined as such under their laws in that regard, and while I'm not knowledgeable of the exact specifics, since the swastika is a religious symbol (that was hijacked by the Nazis for their ideological purposes according to my own research), it is permitted for certain religious groups to use the symbol in that context only.

MoldyHay · Unread post by **MoldyHay** » Wed Feb 11, 2015 2:52 am

GethN7 wrote:
Johnny Au wrote:Don't forget that Germany has laws prohibiting depictions of Nazi-related symbols (especially the swastika).
To my knowledge, we are hosted with DigitalOcean at present, which is American based, and thus our hosted content falls under that jurisdiction, and thus none of our content base on any wiki, is, to our knowledge, in violation of any law or statute. If we do change servers at any time, it is high priority for us to fully investigate the legal jurisdictions in advance to determine if any of our hosted wikis would be in violation.

Also, Germany does prevent depictions of the swastika and most Nazi material except for anything the historical or academic sense, pursuant to what is properly defined as such under their laws in that regard, and while I'm not knowledgeable of the exact specifics, since the swastika is a religious symbol (that was hijacked by the Nazis for their ideological purposes according to my own research), it is permitted for certain religious groups to use the symbol in that context only.

Yes, you're hosted on DigitalOcean, which is based in New York, but you're using the London datacenter. You can post stuff about Nazis there, you just can't say anything bad about anyone famous.

GethN7 · Unread post by **GethN7** » Wed Feb 11, 2015 4:18 am

MoldyHay wrote:
GethN7 wrote:
Johnny Au wrote:Don't forget that Germany has laws prohibiting depictions of Nazi-related symbols (especially the swastika).
To my knowledge, we are hosted with DigitalOcean at present, which is American based, and thus our hosted content falls under that jurisdiction, and thus none of our content base on any wiki, is, to our knowledge, in violation of any law or statute. If we do change servers at any time, it is high priority for us to fully investigate the legal jurisdictions in advance to determine if any of our hosted wikis would be in violation.

Also, Germany does prevent depictions of the swastika and most Nazi material except for anything the historical or academic sense, pursuant to what is properly defined as such under their laws in that regard, and while I'm not knowledgeable of the exact specifics, since the swastika is a religious symbol (that was hijacked by the Nazis for their ideological purposes according to my own research), it is permitted for certain religious groups to use the symbol in that context only.
Yes, you're hosted on DigitalOcean, which is based in New York, but you're using the London datacenter. You can post stuff about Nazis there, you just can't say anything bad about anyone famous.

Thanks for the clarification. If we receive any complaints in that regard from any parties who lodge them via proper legal channels, we will address them with due diligence.

In fact, I want to make something clear, if it hasn't been made clear already: I am here because I'm a firm believer in giving my critics a fair hearing, even if I don't believe anything they have to say is valid.

In this case, I and my fellows at Orain do agree with you all on moral grounds, but we stand by our decisions on this matter unless we are legally prompted to revise that position, in which case we shall make the appropriate redress for that eventuality, but otherwise, and I say this at the risk of offense, no amount of complaints or outrage about us hosting RightWiki on moral grounds is going to change our hosting them because we will put freedom of expression above our personal moral reservations, and that is the policy of Orain as hammered out by Dusti, enforced by my fellow staff members, and which I personally defend due to my own firm belief in anticensorship, and nothing, repeat nothing, save any legitimate legal prompting, is going to make us change our minds on this.

Michaeldsuarez · Unread post by **Michaeldsuarez** » Mon Mar 02, 2015 1:57 am

https://meta.orain.org/wiki/System_administrators%27_noticeboard#Custom_domain

Rightpedia's founder "Fiala1" doesn't know how to purchase domains. This, along with the fact that they're using a wiki farm instead of a typical web host, shows that they don't have a clue on how to operate a website on their own. If they're kicked off of Orain, then they're finished. "Fiala1" and his friends doesn't have the know-how needed to operate a website without Orain's aid.

Johnny Au · Unread post by **Johnny Au** » Mon Mar 02, 2015 6:36 pm

Michaeldsuarez wrote:https://meta.orain.org/wiki/System_administrators%27_noticeboard#Custom_domain

Rightpedia's founder "Fiala1" doesn't know how to purchase domains. This, along with the fact that they're using a wiki farm instead of a typical web host, shows that they don't have a clue on how to operate a website on their own. If they're kicked off of Orain, then they're finished. "Fiala1" and his friends doesn't have the know-how needed to operate a website without Orain's aid.

Perhaps because many custom domains require payment and Orain is a free wiki farm.

Michaeldsuarez · Unread post by **Michaeldsuarez** » Mon Mar 02, 2015 9:19 pm

Johnny Au wrote:
Michaeldsuarez wrote:https://meta.orain.org/wiki/System_administrators%27_noticeboard#Custom_domain

Rightpedia's founder "Fiala1" doesn't know how to purchase domains. This, along with the fact that they're using a wiki farm instead of a typical web host, shows that they don't have a clue on how to operate a website on their own. If they're kicked off of Orain, then they're finished. "Fiala1" and his friends doesn't have the know-how needed to operate a website without Orain's aid.
Perhaps because many custom domains require payment and Orain is a free wiki farm.

"Fiala1" is offering to pay Orain for a domain. He probably never purchased a domain before. He's clueless. He needs Orain to hold his hand through everything.