Enshittification and YouTube's Adblockblock
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Enshittification and YouTube's Adblockblock
YouTube has globally rolled out the anti-adblock feature it started experimenting with in May. Seems to be ill-advised in my opinion.
As far as I can tell, there is absolutely no ad-free version of YouTube available without paying. Like, there is no public broadcasting equivalent for YouTube. Maybe you gotta switch to Vimeo? Sure
I would be fine if YouTube adblocked blocked content that a creator wanted monetized, but the adblock block is applied universally and is pretty disgusting given that they are showing ads on all content except those which are demonetized, as far as I can tell. In many cases, YouTube inserts the ads in the middle of the video (unclear to me if this is at creator's request or not) and some users are reporting ads that are running up to four in a row that are unskippable.
I have no idea what the adblock rate for using YouTube is, but if it is as high as I suspect, I don't think Alphabet wins this one in the long run. Either they Xitterfy the thing or they back down somehow.
Anyway, I'm all
As far as I can tell, there is absolutely no ad-free version of YouTube available without paying. Like, there is no public broadcasting equivalent for YouTube. Maybe you gotta switch to Vimeo? Sure
I would be fine if YouTube adblocked blocked content that a creator wanted monetized, but the adblock block is applied universally and is pretty disgusting given that they are showing ads on all content except those which are demonetized, as far as I can tell. In many cases, YouTube inserts the ads in the middle of the video (unclear to me if this is at creator's request or not) and some users are reporting ads that are running up to four in a row that are unskippable.
I have no idea what the adblock rate for using YouTube is, but if it is as high as I suspect, I don't think Alphabet wins this one in the long run. Either they Xitterfy the thing or they back down somehow.
Anyway, I'm all
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Re: Enshittification and YouTube's Adblockblock
I have an idea. The WMF has tried to make their websites look and feel more like social media so people will be more comfortable with them. Why not go whole hog and just create wikitube, have it work exactly like youtube, except no profit motive. Just use donor money to host it, and content creators do not get paid.
I honestly can't decide if I'm proposing this seriously or as a joke.
I honestly can't decide if I'm proposing this seriously or as a joke.
information is not knowledge, knowledge is not wisdom
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Re: Enshittification and YouTube's Adblockblock
Well, it kinda already exists on commons. Nothing to stop you from uploading fun video content released under some appropriate CC license. It's just that there isn't any algorithmic feeding or straightforward ways to keep track of your viewing history or easily embed the videos or natively edit videos, etc., etc.Beeblebrox wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 11:04 pmI have an idea. The WMF has tried to make their websites look and feel more like social media so people will be more comfortable with them. Why not go whole hog and just create wikitube, have it work exactly like youtube, except no profit motive. Just use donor money to host it, and content creators do not get paid.
I honestly can't decide if I'm proposing this seriously or as a joke.
Who knows? It'd be a better use of funds than some of the ways I've seen WMF spend money, that's for sure.
Of course, this would require the WMF developers to get the thing off the ground. The idea of something like Flowvision being invented makes me chuckle.
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Re: Enshittification and YouTube's Adblockblock
Youtube is so overwhelmingly the dominant platform because hosting a free video hosting website is incredibly difficult for a number of reasons:Beeblebrox wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 11:04 pmI have an idea. The WMF has tried to make their websites look and feel more like social media so people will be more comfortable with them. Why not go whole hog and just create wikitube, have it work exactly like youtube, except no profit motive. Just use donor money to host it, and content creators do not get paid.
I honestly can't decide if I'm proposing this seriously or as a joke.
1. Any website like this is going to attract rampant copyright infringement which is very difficult to deal with (and likely to result in litigation by well-funded companies with good lawyers) without some kind of immense system like ContentID (T-H-L), which has cost Google hundreds of millions of dollars to create and maintain.
2. Child pornography. I don't think I need to go into detail with this, given previous discussions about the WMFs dealing with this issue.
3. Liveleak-esque stuff like the killing of people and animals, including terrorism. Stuff like this will have to be clamped down upon by mandate of places like the EU.
All in all, this presents a huge enforcement nightmare, just like other social media platforms. Commons already has huge problems with stuff like this despite not explicity being a video hosting site.
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Re: Enshittification and YouTube's Adblockblock
Aww... come on. Where's your faith in crowdsourcing magic? Actually, as far as I can tell, YouTube relies (or, at least used to rely) heavily on its reporting feature to police content, but, obviously, there is some sort of professional at the other end. Sometimes. Sometimes there is a sweatshop worker who ends up with PTSD after a few months of full-time horror monitoring.Hemiauchenia wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 11:36 pmAll in all, this presents a huge enforcement nightmare, just like other social media platforms. Commons already has huge problems with stuff like this despite not explicity being a video hosting site.
What a magical internet world we live in!
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Re: Enshittification and YouTube's Adblockblock
It's going to be good for me, kinda. I will suffer through ads for content that I absolutely want/need to watch. That usually leads to a binge. But the second an ad pops up, it should serve as a reminder to stop. I already do this with apps and mobile games. And maybe it's a good time to be a content creator? I have seen people make money just reading Wikipedia articles aloud.
Now, if only it would stop asking me to subscribe. I have gotten more intrusive popups asking me to please enjoy one month of premium for the whole family than I've gotten ads.
Now, if only it would stop asking me to subscribe. I have gotten more intrusive popups asking me to please enjoy one month of premium for the whole family than I've gotten ads.
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Re: Enshittification and YouTube's Adblockblock
My ublock origin updated and the Youtube Adblockblock seems to have disappeared.
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Re: Enshittification and YouTube's Adblockblock
Well now, that's a good question. I actually don't know really, but maybe some speculation on my part will inspire others to come forward with more specific info on this.Giraffe Stapler wrote: ↑Fri Oct 20, 2023 3:48 pmI'm sure there are people that do that, but what makes you think they are making any money?
The three Youtube channels that pop up near the top of Youtube's search results for terms like "wiki articles read aloud" or "wikipedia article audio versions" (at least when I try it) are wikipedia tts (~3,000 subscribers, ~7,000 videos), Wiki Audio (529, 206), and Audio Wikipedia (52, 40). Those aren't good numbers, to begin with, and most of these videos have very few views (fewer than 10 is quite common, and some have only 1 view, presumably representing the uploader checking to see if it worked, meaning no views at all).
But let's be super-charitable and say that each video gets an average of 100 views, and that nobody is using Ad Blockers. Let's also use nice ballpark figures too, for clarity. Youtube says it pays 1.8¢ per view, but since they keep 45% of that they're actually only paying about 1¢ per view. So that's $1 in revenue per video, in this example. Obviously, that's not enough to make it worth doing, even if you're a computer whiz who can automate the creation/uploading process in a reasonable amount of time.
I'd have to guess that one of the main reasons it's hard to make money on this (aside from the fact that WP articles are usually written to satisfy the primary authors' sense of personal vanity, not to be read or listened to) is podcasting — there are literally millions of podcasts now, and for every Youtube channel that reads WP articles aloud, there are probably at least 10 podcasts doing it, and in a way that makes a lot more sense for smartphone users. But they probably aren't making any money either, which is why most of them last about two weeks before giving up — still, you've got to get your start somewhere, I guess.
The podcasts that do make money by covering historical/cultural topics are shows like The Dollop and Last Podcast on the Left, who actually do the research (using real books and news articles, not just WP), write their own scripts, and inject some humor or even suspense into the proceedings to keep listeners from falling asleep. They mostly make their money via some combination of Youtube monetization, Patreon, and "use the code!" track-back advertising, the latter two of which might seem dicey, but they're both probably just as lucrative as Youtube at the low end. So... as long as the subject you're interested in isn't totally obscure, by now there's probably a podcast episode (if not an entire series) devoted to it somewhere that's a helluva lot more entertaining than an audio transcription of the WP article, and subject coverage will only get more thorough and saturated as time goes on.
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Re: Enshittification and YouTube's Adblockblock
That roughly aligns with the numbers recently mentioned by a moderate-size channel: $1600 for 200k views (of a 20 minute video).Midsize Jake wrote: ↑Fri Oct 20, 2023 9:00 pmWell now, that's a good question. I actually don't know really, but maybe some speculation on my part will inspire others to come forward with more specific info on this.Giraffe Stapler wrote: ↑Fri Oct 20, 2023 3:48 pmI'm sure there are people that do that, but what makes you think they are making any money?
The three Youtube channels that pop up near the top of Youtube's search results for terms like "wiki articles read aloud" or "wikipedia article audio versions" (at least when I try it) are wikipedia tts (~3,000 subscribers, ~7,000 videos), Wiki Audio (529, 206), and Audio Wikipedia (52, 40). Those aren't good numbers, to begin with, and most of these videos have very few views (fewer than 10 is quite common, and some have only 1 view, presumably representing the uploader checking to see if it worked, meaning no views at all).
But let's be super-charitable and say that each video gets an average of 100 views, and that nobody is using Ad Blockers. Let's also use nice ballpark figures too, for clarity. Youtube says it pays 1.8¢ per view, but since they keep 45% of that they're actually only paying about 1¢ per view. So that's $1 in revenue per video, in this example.
Which works out to be 80 cents for 100 views.
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Re: Enshittification and YouTube's Adblockblock
I should add that I also prefer the current situation, whereby I can't watch Youtube videos unless I copy the URL out of Firefox (with UBlock Origin disabled) and open it in Safari (with Adblock Plus enabled), because it means I watch significantly fewer Youtube videos.
Just in the last few minutes while writing that last post, Youtube's search algorithm was kind enough to promote a video just for me! called Cryptids of Wikipedia, on a channel called "Captain KRB," which starts with a short screenshot-slideshow history of Wikipedia and then goes into a detailed explanation of how WP handles long-term abuse, with several examples. It's not particularly funny or entertaining, nor is it really anti-Wikipedia per se (and it's definitely anti-UPE), but it's informative, well-researched and reasonably accurate (leading me to believe that Captain KRB could actually be one of us, though not me of course because I would insist on at least 2-3 bad jokes per minute).
This video has garnered 568,000 views in just 2 months, so that's about $6,000 so far, assuming all those views are counted (i.e., not tossed out because of AdBlockers). Not bad for a video with no live footage and minimal (or no?) non-computer-generated original animation.
Just in the last few minutes while writing that last post, Youtube's search algorithm was kind enough to promote a video just for me! called Cryptids of Wikipedia, on a channel called "Captain KRB," which starts with a short screenshot-slideshow history of Wikipedia and then goes into a detailed explanation of how WP handles long-term abuse, with several examples. It's not particularly funny or entertaining, nor is it really anti-Wikipedia per se (and it's definitely anti-UPE), but it's informative, well-researched and reasonably accurate (leading me to believe that Captain KRB could actually be one of us, though not me of course because I would insist on at least 2-3 bad jokes per minute).
This video has garnered 568,000 views in just 2 months, so that's about $6,000 so far, assuming all those views are counted (i.e., not tossed out because of AdBlockers). Not bad for a video with no live footage and minimal (or no?) non-computer-generated original animation.
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Re: Enshittification and YouTube's Adblockblock
Honestly, how are there people who don't have YouTube premium? Google gives it away with every paid product they offer. I've had it since 2011 with my Google Play Music subscription. When that switched to YouTube music it came with that too. My Fi plan has YouTube premium as a perk. Logging in to a Chromebook for the first time comes with 3 months free YouTube premium. My home minis and home hub came with 3 months YouTube premium. Hell, two of my home minis came as free gifts from Google for being a YouTube premium member and even those gave me 3 more months of YouTube premium each. I've had the Nexus 5X, Pixel 3a, Pixel 5a and Pixel 7 Pro and each one also came with free YouTube premium/YouTube Red. When Play Pass first launched the 1.99 a month first year price included YouTube Premium as a perk.
I'm fairly convinced that like 90% of the bellyaching over adblock on YouTube is mostly people too young to be able to buy things online, because basically anytime you buy something from Google it comes with free YouTube premium. You have to put in actual effort to even be aware that YouTube has ads these days. It's been over a decade since I've seen one.
I'm fairly convinced that like 90% of the bellyaching over adblock on YouTube is mostly people too young to be able to buy things online, because basically anytime you buy something from Google it comes with free YouTube premium. You have to put in actual effort to even be aware that YouTube has ads these days. It's been over a decade since I've seen one.
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Re: Enshittification and YouTube's Adblockblock
honestly, how are there people who have youtube premium?
if you are reading this then you maybe are suffering maybe paranoia perhaps (or not)...
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Re: Enshittification and YouTube's Adblockblock
I've never bought anything from google and I don't want or need youtube premium.... basically anytime you buy something from Google it comes with free YouTube premium.
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Re: Enshittification and YouTube's Adblockblock
That's fair. I didn't think I needed it at first, it was just an ad on to my music service, but I've actively grown to love screen-off play. Being able to listen to videos while doing something else on my phone is pretty indispensable now. And the aforementioned lack of ads.
But if you're not already part of the Google Cinematic Universe or whatever they're calling the ecosystem I can see how you'd never cross the hump.
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Re: Enshittification and YouTube's Adblockblock
There's actually a fairly prominent strain of anti-Googlism among the long-time regulars here that goes back to 2005, if not earlier. Daniel Brandt, one of our "leading lights" if you will during our first 5-7 years or so, was the guy behind Scroogle, which I believe was considered by some to be the first Google scraper or "obfuscator" (or whatever you call it when a middleman site/app like StartPage.com submits your search requests to Google for you so that Google can't track you and associate your search queries to an account or IP address).
The thing about Youtube Premium is that even if you're getting it for free over an extended period of time (and note that it's supposed to cost $13.99 a month), they insist that you sign up with a credit card, right? (Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm about 99% certain that recurring billing is a requirement.) It's hard to get a credit card or even operate a PayPal account under an assumed name, so... assuming I'm right about that, once they have you on Youtube Premium, they know who you are IRL, which isn't necessarily true for ordinary Google/Gmail accounts.
So if you ask me, it's really more of a privacy thing than a desire to "screw over" Youtube by blocking ads.
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Re: Enshittification and YouTube's Adblockblock
Ah, Mr. Brandt. The very first non-article space edit I ever made was to vote in the deletion discussion of the article on him. I got emails about it for close to three years. Fun times.
But good to know, thank you.
But good to know, thank you.
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Re: Enshittification and YouTube's Adblockblock
I've paid for Google One (formerly Google Drive) for years and never been offered free YouTube premium. I just checked, and it is not listed as a benefit.Snooper wrote: ↑Fri Oct 27, 2023 3:03 amHonestly, how are there people who don't have YouTube premium? Google gives it away with every paid product they offer. I've had it since 2011 with my Google Play Music subscription. When that switched to YouTube music it came with that too. My Fi plan has YouTube premium as a perk. Logging in to a Chromebook for the first time comes with 3 months free YouTube premium. My home minis and home hub came with 3 months YouTube premium. Hell, two of my home minis came as free gifts from Google for being a YouTube premium member and even those gave me 3 more months of YouTube premium each. I've had the Nexus 5X, Pixel 3a, Pixel 5a and Pixel 7 Pro and each one also came with free YouTube premium/YouTube Red. When Play Pass first launched the 1.99 a month first year price included YouTube Premium as a perk.
I'm fairly convinced that like 90% of the bellyaching over adblock on YouTube is mostly people too young to be able to buy things online, because basically anytime you buy something from Google it comes with free YouTube premium. You have to put in actual effort to even be aware that YouTube has ads these days. It's been over a decade since I've seen one.
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Re: Enshittification and YouTube's Adblockblock
Sure, but this is definitely a "the more you tighten your grasp, the more systems will slip through your fingers"-type deal. The more draconian Google gets about ads and trying to crack down on blocking them, the more likely it hurts the user experience for everyone, the same way piracy protections can hurt legitimate customers to a degree where they don't want to pay, either.
Plus, frankly, as Youtube's ads continue to get cruddier, that just creates more of a market of motivated people who want to avoid them.
I don't pay for Premium because I fundamentally take exception with the idea of paying Youtube as a thank-you for making my user experience worse. At least with news behind paywalls and such there's original content being provided.Snooper wrote: ↑Fri Oct 27, 2023 3:03 amI'm fairly convinced that like 90% of the bellyaching over adblock on YouTube is mostly people too young to be able to buy things online, because basically anytime you buy something from Google it comes with free YouTube premium. You have to put in actual effort to even be aware that YouTube has ads these days. It's been over a decade since I've seen one.
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Re: Enshittification and YouTube's Adblockblock
Yep, they updated and are now "3-striking" me, to say that I will be barred if I continue to use an adblocker.
Meanwhile, a colleague posted a screenshot in work chat showing that one of the two "adverts" he was being served was a 30 minute video. They don't want people to be able to put on a video and relax if they don't pay.
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Re: Enshittification and YouTube's Adblockblock
Testing whether Youtube can force ads in an embedded video.
I saw not one Google-supplied ad. Interesting.
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Re: Enshittification and YouTube's Adblockblock
You didn't redeem it then, free YouTube premium was offered with One til last year: https://www.youtube.com/go/terms/google-one/
And the scary text about not using it if you've already had premium is just scary text. Premiums larger TOS makes clear that you can apply multiple promotions, they just can't be in the same month:
https://m.youtube.com/premium/restrictions
Edit: and if you're in the UK the One-Premium offer was open until two months ago: https://www.youtube.com/intl/ALL_uk/go/ ... oogle-one/Multiple promotions may not be combined within the same billing cycle. If you are eligible for more than one promotion, they may be applied in subsequent billing cycles.
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Re: Enshittification and YouTube's Adblockblock
Anyway, I'm not really arguing you should have it. I really don't care, different strokes for different folks. I'm just saying from my perspective as someone whose heavily Google adjacent- I use Google Fi for my cell plan, my phone number has been via Google Voice since like 2008, I have multiple smart home assistants and use Google's music service, buy Google made cell phones- that premium just kinda accrues on you and it would take a conscious decision to avoid it. My premium subscription currently isn't set to actually charge me real money until June of 2026.
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Re: Enshittification and YouTube's Adblockblock
it's reasonable.Beeblebrox wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 11:04 pmI have an idea. The WMF has tried to make their websites look and feel more like social media so people will be more comfortable with them. Why not go whole hog and just create wikitube, have it work exactly like youtube, except no profit motive. Just use donor money to host it, and content creators do not get paid.
I honestly can't decide if I'm proposing this seriously or as a joke.
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Re: Enshittification and YouTube's Adblockblock
What, "failure is good"? That's been his only consistent mantra over the years, AFAIK.Randy from Boise wrote: ↑Sun Oct 29, 2023 5:01 amGive one thing to Jimmy Wales: he believes in something.
Anyway, I deleted some cookies and Youtube is back to working for me on Firefox, so... I guess the lesson here is don't delete those cookies.