thekohser wrote:Another way to tell when Jimbo is going to say something false is when he
says something is...
...entirely utterly completely 100%...
There follows a quite entertaining exchange:
This argument is entirely utterly completely 100% unpersuasive. "However, our instance on it being verboten for businesses to officially edit articles about themselves means that we've shut off our access to this quality of information, condemning our articles on businesses to be shallow when they could be rich and engrossing." It is very very easy for archivists and historians employed by brands to interact ethically with Wikipedia. There is no need for them to edit article space directly. And as we know from many many incidents over a long period of time (1) their edits will on average be tediously self-serving PR speak and (2) the press will chew them up for doing it, and rightly so.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 17:48, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
Of course, Jimmy, because so very many of them have done that until now. And now that you've decided to publicly piss on them, they'll be even more motivated to take the time to learn our rules and participate here in a beneficial fashion. Flawless logic, Glorious Leader. It's also pretty rich for someone from the WMF to pass comment on "tediously self-serving PR speak", at which your organization excels. — Scott • talk 18:47, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
Again, that doesn't make any sense whatsoever. I have always been very warmly supportive of people who want to approach us in a transparent and ethical fashion, allowing independent community members to make a determination about editorial matters. That isn't "pissing all over" anyone we actually want here. As for the rest, it's just noise rather than coherent arguments. (Tu quoque fallacy, look it up.)--Jimbo Wales (talk) 19:55, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
How can you say that you welcome people approaching us in a "transparent and ethical fashion" when you support a system that forces business editors to become incognito? "Smithsonandco" gets blocked and has to change their name to "JoeLovesAirplanes123", at which point they're merrily unblocked by some admin, then off they go. Look at the renaming logs; it happens all the time. That's not tu quoque, it's just pointing out the gigantic logical disconnect between what you say you support and what actually happens. Your comment about "their edits will on average be tediously self-serving PR speak" is also telling: abuse of our articles for promotional purposes is an artifact of the black market produced by our own policies. These people can't engage with us fairly, so why is anyone surprised that the ones who bother to engage at all are the ones who unscrupulously take advantage of our hospitality?
Trying to prevent it from happening is also pure Whac-A-Mole. High-profile articles may get some defense, but have a stroll around random business articles some time. Look at the names in their edit history. Follow the edits. Virtually none of the people collectively taking advantage of this project on a massive scale identify themselves (and the ones that do, in ignorance, don't last long). Contrast their being allowed to identify themselves as businesses. In which model would their edits be subject to more scrutiny? Up there I said "subject to exactly the same content policies [as] the rest of us", because that should be obvious. Would Business X be allowed to add weasel words or uncited claims to [[Business X]]? Of course not. For anyone to argue against allowing business editing on the basis that they would is to make a colossal straw man. If Business X wants it to be known that their widgets are made from the highest grade of unobtainium ever recorded, they can damn well provide a reliable source to say so or forget about it. Why not subject identified businesses to an even stricter grade of requirements than other editors? The sourcing requirements of BLP covers a whole category of article; turn that inside out and make a new policy for a whole category of editors.
Prohibition is a failure, and Wikipedia needs a 21st Amendment. Mr. Wales, tear down this bright line. — Scott • talk 20:31, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
While some of Scott's rhetoric is excessive (and I think self-consciously, even archly, so), there is merit to at least one of his observations: (1) We ask editors affiliated with a business and editing about that business to prominently identify themselves; (2) the most prominent way for an editor to display an affiliation would be in his or her username; but (3) if an editor wanting to be fully transparent (or just naively assuming that's the norm) creates User:CorporationXYZeditor, the account will be blocked almost immediately for a bad username. The community has recently declined to change that policy, so so be it, but it's an introductory awkwardness that arises more often that one might imagine (peek at any day's installment of WP:UAA for examples). Newyorkbrad (talk) 20:37, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
Indeed, it is a policy that I have long thought unwise and not particularly helpful with any meaningful problems. There are other problems in how we deal with corporate editing, too. It would be nice to have a constructive conversation about how to improve that, but such conversations tend to be derailed very quickly by excessive rhetoric and, with you Brad, I believe that is likely self-consciously so.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:03, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
That somewhat puzzling last sentence addressed to Brad is presumably meant to be nicely ingratiating, given that Brad has momentarily, even if only ever so slightly, taken the side of Jimbo's adversary; i.e., "along with you Brad, I believe ..." rather than "in your case Brad, I believe ..."