Biographies of WWII self-promoters

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Biographies of WWII self-promoters

Unread post by Cla68 » Sun Dec 14, 2014 10:51 am

Two US WWII veterans who heavily self-promoted their wartime exploits up until their deaths were Guy Gabaldon and Thomas George Lanphier, Jr.. Not coincidentally, both men had active political aspirations.

Both of these guys were able to get the available pre-internet sources to apparently follow their personally manipulated and tightly controlled narratives. Because of this, their obituaries, which appear to have been the major sources for their WP articles, repeat their claims as if they were verified truths. Those "facts" being that Gabaldon personally captured 1,500 Japanese soldiers during the Battle of Saipan and Lanphier was the pilot who shot down and killed Japanese Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto. Both claims have been discredited, although, at least with Gabaldon, this doesn't appear to be widely known.

As a result, their WP biographies were hagiographic to varying degrees. I just fixed Gabaldon's bio. Lamphier's bio wasn't quite as bad, but it still carried some of the inflated claims, which were later corrected.

I guess this could mean that Wikipedia actually provides a valuable service, because it provides a central location to summarize and correct some of the dubious claims that exist out there about the supposed exploits of some media personalities. But, it could also mean that WP, because of its reliance on Internet sourcing for much of its content, has a weakness for pre-Internet hagiographic claims to be repeated in WP's voice, thereby reinforcing them as fact.

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Re: Biographies of two WWII self-promoters

Unread post by Poetlister » Sun Dec 14, 2014 11:52 am

I'm not clear if your amendments to Gabaldon are properly referenced. In my experience, it can be very difficult to fix errors if people have a "reliable source" for the error, even if you have references to the contrary. People will dismiss your source, or twitter about "undue weight" and so on.

You have a typo: "make movie" should be "make a movie".
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Re: Biographies of two WWII self-promoters

Unread post by Cla68 » Sun Dec 14, 2014 12:09 pm

Poetlister wrote:I'm not clear if your amendments to Gabaldon are properly referenced. In my experience, it can be very difficult to fix errors if people have a "reliable source" for the error, even if you have references to the contrary. People will dismiss your source, or twitter about "undue weight" and so on.

You have a typo: "make movie" should be "make a movie".
Thanks. We'll see if it sticks. The book I used was using several other sources, footnoted in the text, for those assertions. If the regulars of that article decided to protest my changes, I may try to defend them, or not.

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Re: Biographies of two WWII self-promoters

Unread post by JCM » Sun Dec 14, 2014 7:59 pm

This thread raises a really interesting point regarding repeated misstatements of fact of living people which in lots of cases are somewhat harder to prove are misstatements of fact after the fact. Brian Dennehy (T-H-L) among others liked to talk about their service in Vietnam for some time, only later to have reviews of the records indicate they never actually went there. And it would be even harder for people to verify more specific details of the military service of self-misrepresenting individuals.

And, unfortunately, in cases of individuals who don't get a lot of attention after their deaths, it could well be that the only places which might publish such data might be local historical society journals and the like, which a lot of people don't consult much if at all.

Of course, the same sort of thing is true about the hagiographies of real or purportedly real saints as well. Although, in most of those cases, it wasn't the person themselves lying, considering most of them tended to have to die before veneration.

And let's not even talk about the statements in novels and works of fiction and other dubious sources which many people repeat after the fact as true. Like the misrepresentations in the movie Braveheart, for instance.

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Re: Biographies of two WWII self-promoters

Unread post by Ross McPherson » Sun Dec 14, 2014 8:56 pm

That is an amazing hero, however you interpret the facts, but how many of those facts will the average reader remember? A month from now I won’t even remember his name. So what is the value of the article? We all know that a WP article carries no authority anywhere. It amounts to hearsay, an anecdotal record in need of corroboration from more reliable sources, so it is virtually worthless as a serious document.

It titillates my curiosity. That much is true. But will that lead to anything? Probably not since I don’t have a real interest in things military. It could lead some other readers to do follow up research and it even includes a selection of sources that could be helpful – except Wikipedia references can’t be accepted as authoritative. Interested readers have no choice but to pursue different lines of enquiry if they are to be sure of their facts and of the interpretation. Of course it is the great hope of Wikipedia’s propagandists that they won’t be that conscientious.

So what is the value of the article? It has enormous value in a world that takes titillation seriously. It has the same value as a pop song, the latest brand of yoghurt, the newest model in the car yard. That’s what all the work, fuss and anguish of Wikipedians comes down to – and they don’t even get any money or recognition for it!

You idiots. Worse than idiots. Wikipedia is a school for bad manners, dishonesty, hypocrisy, self-deception, manipulation and propaganda. It is a cult wrapped in the aura of a charity, painted as an encyclopaedia, cultivated by wannabe scholars, wannabe world authorities, genuine delinquents, nerds etc. It is not about keeping the world reliably informed.

I’m not sure how many Japanes prisoners that marine captured single-handed but I do know this – nobody can rescue a single Wikipedian by mere argument. That place needs nuking.
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Re: Biographies of two WWII self-promoters

Unread post by m0riarty » Sun Dec 14, 2014 9:28 pm

how many times does a lie need to be repeated on twitter before it is blogged and newscasted into wikireality. Sadly, in many situations it is easier to source a myth than it is to establish to the satisfaction of wikipedia policy that such preposterous myth should not be republished.

I know nobody should be surprised by that, wikipedia is not about truth after all, but it is nonetheless depressing.

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Re: Biographies of two WWII self-promoters

Unread post by EricBarbour » Sun Dec 14, 2014 11:04 pm

Ross McPherson wrote:We all know that a WP article carries no authority anywhere.
Except with high-school and college students, and journalists, and tech-industry analysts, and "free-culture" pundits, and "digerati", and WIRED magazine......
JCM wrote:Brian Dennehy (T-H-L) among others liked to talk about their service in Vietnam for some time, only later to have reviews of the records indicate they never actually went there. And it would be even harder for people to verify more specific details of the military service of self-misrepresenting individuals.
Dennehy's article is very closely watched by its principal author since 2012, someone called MarnetteD (T-C-L). The article mentioned his lying from 2005 until October of this year, when an IP address removed it. Now, an attempt to insert Dennehy's past embellishments of his military service is quickly removed by MarnetteD, as of last month. I smell a COI editor.

At one point in 2005, an image of Dennehy from the South Park movie was being used in the article as the "portrait".
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Re: Biographies of two WWII self-promoters

Unread post by Ross McPherson » Sun Dec 14, 2014 11:28 pm

EricBarbour wrote:
Ross McPherson wrote:We all know that a WP article carries no authority anywhere.
Except with high-school and college students, and journalists, and tech-industry analysts, and "free-culture" pundits, and "digerati", and WIRED magazine......
Correction: "We all know that a WP article carries no authority anywhere homo sapiens deserves the name."

But does that need stating?
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Re: Biographies of two WWII self-promoters

Unread post by EricBarbour » Sun Dec 14, 2014 11:48 pm

Ross McPherson wrote:But does that need stating?
Try posting it on Reddit, or a tech-related forum, and see how long it lasts.

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Re: Biographies of two WWII self-promoters

Unread post by Cla68 » Sun Dec 14, 2014 11:53 pm

Both Lanphier and Gabaldon were brave men who put their lives on the line for their country. But, they also inflated then tried to use their wartime experiences for personal gain and prestige. People around them had various reasons for supporting and reinforcing those narratives. As JCM points out, you have to dig down a little to find a more nuanced and less hagiographic accounting of their stories.

Because most Wikipedia editors don't bother going to the library and checking out actual books on this kind of thing, they usually just use Internet sources. Internet sources often are operated by the people who have an agenda for promoting the topic in the most positive way possible. The USMC's official bio of Merritt Edson for example, doesn't mention that he comitted suicide. His article on Wikipedia does mention how he actually died, but it uses two books as two of the three sources for that fact.

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Re: Biographies of two WWII self-promoters

Unread post by EricBarbour » Mon Dec 15, 2014 12:15 am

I've looked around for further examples of people pumping up their military careers and the "facts" ending up on WP, with not much luck.

If only Randy Everette had kept his "Medal of Honor liars" website up. But of course, he just had to yank it down, because people on WP were using it to "out" him. Or something.
http://www.nightscribe.com/Military/medal_of_honor.htm

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Re: Biographies of two WWII self-promoters

Unread post by Cla68 » Mon Dec 15, 2014 12:29 am

EricBarbour wrote:I've looked around for further examples of people pumping up their military careers and the "facts" ending up on WP, with not much luck.

If only Randy Everette had kept his "Medal of Honor liars" website up. But of course, he just had to yank it down, because people on WP were using it to "out" him. Or something.
http://www.nightscribe.com/Military/medal_of_honor.htm
One thing I've noticed is that veterans will often wait until they are in their 70s or 80s before they release memoirs containing blunt truths about what they actually saw or experienced in their wars. They do so, IMO, because they're waiting for most of their former comrades to pass away so that they don't have to worry any longer about embarrasing them by presenting them in ways that might not be completely flattering. Right now is that time for WWII and the Korean War as the remaining survivors of those conflicts near the ends of their lives. In about 10-20 more years and we should start to see more stuff like that about the Vietnam War.

For example, Rex Barber, the pilot who should have gotten credit for shooting down Yamamoto instead of Lanphier never really tried to publicly dispute Lanphier's claims until late in his life.

Again, most of this information will be in books, not the Internet.

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Re: Biographies of two WWII self-promoters

Unread post by EricBarbour » Mon Dec 15, 2014 12:34 am

Cla68 wrote:Again, most of this information will be in books, not the Internet.
How dare you!?!? Dead trees are dead, The Internet Is Magic, it can't possibly be wrong, etc. etc.

Insert further angry-nerd paraphrasing here.

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Re: Biographies of two WWII self-promoters

Unread post by Ross McPherson » Mon Dec 15, 2014 1:31 am

Cla68 wrote:One thing I've noticed is that veterans will often wait until they are in their 70s or 80s before they release memoirs containing blunt truths about what they actually saw or experienced in their wars. They do so, IMO, because they're waiting for most of their former comrades to pass away so that they don't have to worry any longer about embarrasing them by presenting them in ways that might not be completely flattering.
At what age will Wikipedians start telling the truth? That is an environment where your avatar can get blow to smithereens by bullshit grenades, so of course they rely on their buddies. Cross your buddies in the front line and you end up with a bullshit bayonet up the arse. They should all get medals for the wasted years.
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Re: Biographies of two WWII self-promoters

Unread post by Poetlister » Mon Dec 15, 2014 11:07 am

I see that Cla68 was reverted and then our friend Volunteer Marek reinstated the edit. :popcorn:
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Re: Biographies of two WWII self-promoters

Unread post by eagle » Thu Dec 18, 2014 11:32 am

Ross McPherson wrote:At what age will Wikipedians start telling the truth? That is an environment where your avatar can get blow to smithereens by bullshit grenades, so of course they rely on their buddies. Cross your buddies in the front line and you end up with a bullshit bayonet up the arse. They should all get medals for the wasted years.
I believe that there will be a generational change at Wikipedia. In 2005-08, Wikipedia was the "in" thing to do if you were an Internet Pioneer. So, it attracted a large number of male high school and college students. Many of these people have moved on in their careers -- to Internet startups or to conventional jobs. The next Wikipedian recruiting ground will be retired people like DGG (T-C-L). There are a number of retired academics that want to branch out from the academic grind and to be useful and productive.

One would hope that retired people generally have more maturity and human decency than the 2005-08 trend setters, although it is possible that the toxic climate has already chased away many of the decent ones. It would be interesting to watch this trend by monitoring the age distribution of Wikipedia administrators, Stewarts. Arbcom members, and WMF Board members.

Assuming that he survives to the bitter end, Jimmy Whales will be considered a "senior citizen" before you know it. I hope that the transition from the high school and colllege crowd to the senior crowd will be less painful than some of the other power grabs in WP history. Otherwise, the elders will be posting stories about 1,500 prisoners taken at ANI....

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Re: Biographies of two WWII self-promoters

Unread post by JCM » Thu Dec 18, 2014 4:35 pm

eagle wrote:
Ross McPherson wrote:At what age will Wikipedians start telling the truth? That is an environment where your avatar can get blow to smithereens by bullshit grenades, so of course they rely on their buddies. Cross your buddies in the front line and you end up with a bullshit bayonet up the arse. They should all get medals for the wasted years.
I believe that there will be a generational change at Wikipedia. In 2005-08, Wikipedia was the "in" thing to do if you were an Internet Pioneer. So, it attracted a large number of male high school and college students. Many of these people have moved on in their careers -- to Internet startups or to conventional jobs. The next Wikipedian recruiting ground will be retired people like DGG (T-C-L). There are a number of retired academics that want to branch out from the academic grind and to be useful and productive.

One would hope that retired people generally have more maturity and human decency than the 2005-08 trend setters, although it is possible that the toxic climate has already chased away many of the decent ones. It would be interesting to watch this trend by monitoring the age distribution of Wikipedia administrators, Stewarts. Arbcom members, and WMF Board members.

Assuming that he survives to the bitter end, Jimmy Whales will be considered a "senior citizen" before you know it. I hope that the transition from the high school and colllege crowd to the senior crowd will be less painful than some of the other power grabs in WP history. Otherwise, the elders will be posting stories about 1,500 prisoners taken at ANI....
Actually, retirees are actively a current recruiting grounds for wikipedia. Personally, I agree that, in general, as the number of articles and length of articles becomes such that it becomes increasingly difficult, or at least time consuming, to find all articles which directly relate to a given topic and what they say already, let alone trying to develop any single article already fairly well-established, will take a lot of time and effort. Retirees or people who otherwise have no particularly strong real-time commitments would be much better able to spend that time than the younger kids of the early years who were in a position to basically start an article from scratch and not have to worry as much about finding duplicate or possibly even conflicting content elsewhere, or the article already extant under another title, or other things.

At Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Editor Retention (T-H-L) a while ago someone mentioned that senior citizens are very active in the Czech wikipedia, and indicate that there is already at https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants: ... _Wikipedia a project set up specifically for that purpose.

There are both upsides and downsides to the graying of the editor population. In some instances, it makes it less likely that some of the younger and rather brasher editors who sometimes have exaggerated opinions about themselves or are perhaps dedicated SPA editors will demonstrate the often counterproductive behavior that alienates others and makes editing in some topic areas harder. That can be a good thing. I remember in the Falun Gong arbcom cases one younger editor basically acted like an obnoxious idiot and drove away other editors. The downside is that many of the older editors will have, in some cases, even more long-term and sometimes intransigent opinions regarding matters of religion and politics, among other topics, and may well see editing as being a way of preserving their opinions for posterity. Editors with such motivation can be just as disruptive, because they are less interested in building an encyclopedia than using it to promote and memorialize their own beliefs. And retired males, whose thinking processes become much less elastic after they hit 55 or so, will be particularly bad in that regard.
Last edited by JCM on Thu Dec 18, 2014 5:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Biographies of two WWII self-promoters

Unread post by Vigilant » Thu Dec 18, 2014 4:46 pm

I can't wait for the Fox News watching, Sun City West residents to hit wikipedia...Never mind, most of them can't really use computers and are still on AoL.
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Re: Biographies of two WWII self-promoters

Unread post by Ross McPherson » Thu Dec 18, 2014 8:00 pm

eagle wrote:...I believe that there will be a generational change at Wikipedia. In 2005-08, Wikipedia was the "in" thing to do if you were an Internet Pioneer. So, it attracted a large number of male high school and college students. Many of these people have moved on in their careers -- to Internet startups or to conventional jobs. The next Wikipedian recruiting ground will be retired people like DGG (T-C-L). There are a number of retired academics that want to branch out from the academic grind and to be useful and productive...One would hope that retired people generally have more maturity and human decency than the 2005-08 trend setters, although it is possible that the toxic climate has already chased away many of the decent ones.
I’m not convinced that age matters in that environment. Sycophancy and bullying are opposite sides of the only coin that has currency there and Gramps can be as rich as Little Johnny in that department. It isn’t as if the fists and boots are real.
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Re: Biographies of two WWII self-promoters

Unread post by Cla68 » Thu Dec 18, 2014 10:58 pm

Retirees editing topics in their area of personal interest or related to their careers would be ideal for building Wikipedia. There used to be a number of older gentlemen very active in the military history project group. I believe most of them have given up and left. The problem is WP's administration, I think. People of that age have higher expectations of how human beings should treat each other, the decorum and professionalism that site administrators should have, and the level of attentitiveness and competency that should be constantly on display by WP's leadership. Since all of those qualities are so obviously lacking in WP, older editors go find something better to do with their time. Most of the ones who stick around are activists using WP to further their personal socio-political agendas.

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Re: Biographies of two WWII self-promoters

Unread post by Notvelty » Thu Dec 18, 2014 11:09 pm

Cla68 wrote:
EricBarbour wrote:I've looked around for further examples of people pumping up their military careers and the "facts" ending up on WP, with not much luck.

If only Randy Everette had kept his "Medal of Honor liars" website up. But of course, he just had to yank it down, because people on WP were using it to "out" him. Or something.
http://www.nightscribe.com/Military/medal_of_honor.htm
One thing I've noticed is that veterans will often wait until they are in their 70s or 80s before they release memoirs containing blunt truths about what they actually saw or experienced in their wars. They do so, IMO, because they're waiting for most of their former comrades to pass away so that they don't have to worry any longer about embarrasing them by presenting them in ways that might not be completely flattering.
There is that. But unfortunately, that age is also the time at which stories, exaggerated over the years, start to get mixed up with fact.
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Re: Biographies of two WWII self-promoters

Unread post by Cla68 » Thu Dec 18, 2014 11:50 pm

Notvelty wrote:
Cla68 wrote:
EricBarbour wrote:I've looked around for further examples of people pumping up their military careers and the "facts" ending up on WP, with not much luck.

If only Randy Everette had kept his "Medal of Honor liars" website up. But of course, he just had to yank it down, because people on WP were using it to "out" him. Or something.
http://www.nightscribe.com/Military/medal_of_honor.htm
One thing I've noticed is that veterans will often wait until they are in their 70s or 80s before they release memoirs containing blunt truths about what they actually saw or experienced in their wars. They do so, IMO, because they're waiting for most of their former comrades to pass away so that they don't have to worry any longer about embarrasing them by presenting them in ways that might not be completely flattering.
There is that. But unfortunately, that age is also the time at which stories, exaggerated over the years, start to get mixed up with fact.
I think sometimes that happens, but mainly from what I've seen they type up their journals or diaries into a manuscript earlier in their life, then sit on it until they're older before taking it to an editor. Some of them pass away before their manuscripts get professionally edited, and their families sometimes donate their unpublished memoirs to veterans or historical organizations. Some of those unpublished manuscripts have very good information and are sometimes used as sources for historical studies or books.

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Re: Biographies of two WWII self-promoters

Unread post by Notvelty » Thu Dec 18, 2014 11:53 pm

Cla68 wrote:
Notvelty wrote:
Cla68 wrote:
EricBarbour wrote:I've looked around for further examples of people pumping up their military careers and the "facts" ending up on WP, with not much luck.

If only Randy Everette had kept his "Medal of Honor liars" website up. But of course, he just had to yank it down, because people on WP were using it to "out" him. Or something.
http://www.nightscribe.com/Military/medal_of_honor.htm
One thing I've noticed is that veterans will often wait until they are in their 70s or 80s before they release memoirs containing blunt truths about what they actually saw or experienced in their wars. They do so, IMO, because they're waiting for most of their former comrades to pass away so that they don't have to worry any longer about embarrasing them by presenting them in ways that might not be completely flattering.
There is that. But unfortunately, that age is also the time at which stories, exaggerated over the years, start to get mixed up with fact.
I think sometimes that happens, but mainly from what I've seen they type up their journals or diaries into a manuscript earlier in their life, then sit on it until they're older before taking it to an editor. Some of them pass away before their manuscripts get professionally edited, and their families sometimes donate their unpublished memoirs to veterans or historical organizations. Some of those unpublished manuscripts have very good information and are sometimes used as sources for historical studies or books.
Did Lanphier's journal say that he shot down Yamamoto?
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Re: Biographies of two WWII self-promoters

Unread post by JCM » Fri Dec 19, 2014 12:42 am

Cla68 wrote:I think sometimes that happens, but mainly from what I've seen they type up their journals or diaries into a manuscript earlier in their life, then sit on it until they're older before taking it to an editor. Some of them pass away before their manuscripts get professionally edited, and their families sometimes donate their unpublished memoirs to veterans or historical organizations. Some of those unpublished manuscripts have very good information and are sometimes used as sources for historical studies or books.
Knowing this isn't the place to say this, probably, I remember years ago a now retired editor bought the unpublished manuscript of an old Virginia US senator at a regional book sale and put it on the net so she could use it as a source in the biography she was writing about that person. I wonder how many of the families think about putting the manuscripts on the net, where more people might be able to access them than could at local veterans or historical organizations. Having myself recently seen what happened to a lot of books donated to a seminary library, specifically the fact that the books were given away to anyone who wanted them because they weren't particularly useful for the library, I think that might wind up being a bit better place for them. At least on some internet site somewhere there is a better chance that someone might be able to access them.

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Re: Biographies of two WWII self-promoters

Unread post by Ross McPherson » Fri Dec 19, 2014 2:02 am

Cla68 wrote:Retirees editing topics in their area of personal interest or related to their careers would be ideal for building Wikipedia. There used to be a number of older gentlemen very active in the military history project group. I believe most of them have given up and left. The problem is WP's administration, I think. People of that age have higher expectations of how human beings should treat each other, the decorum and professionalism that site administrators should have, and the level of attentitiveness and competency that should be constantly on display by WP's leadership. Since all of those qualities are so obviously lacking in WP, older editors go find something better to do with their time. Most of the ones who stick around are activists using WP to further their personal socio-political agendas.
Your veteran buddies must have thought Wikipedia was the encyclopaedia to end all encyclopaedias. They soon found out it was just another Vietnam.
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Re: Biographies of two WWII self-promoters

Unread post by Cla68 » Fri Dec 19, 2014 2:28 pm

Notvelty wrote:
Cla68 wrote:
Notvelty wrote:
Cla68 wrote:
EricBarbour wrote:I've looked around for further examples of people pumping up their military careers and the "facts" ending up on WP, with not much luck.

If only Randy Everette had kept his "Medal of Honor liars" website up. But of course, he just had to yank it down, because people on WP were using it to "out" him. Or something.
http://www.nightscribe.com/Military/medal_of_honor.htm
One thing I've noticed is that veterans will often wait until they are in their 70s or 80s before they release memoirs containing blunt truths about what they actually saw or experienced in their wars. They do so, IMO, because they're waiting for most of their former comrades to pass away so that they don't have to worry any longer about embarrasing them by presenting them in ways that might not be completely flattering.
There is that. But unfortunately, that age is also the time at which stories, exaggerated over the years, start to get mixed up with fact.
I think sometimes that happens, but mainly from what I've seen they type up their journals or diaries into a manuscript earlier in their life, then sit on it until they're older before taking it to an editor. Some of them pass away before their manuscripts get professionally edited, and their families sometimes donate their unpublished memoirs to veterans or historical organizations. Some of those unpublished manuscripts have very good information and are sometimes used as sources for historical studies or books.
Did Lanphier's journal say that he shot down Yamamoto?
Yes. Lanphier's personal memoirs had a number of puzzling claims, including that he strangled a Japanese soldier to death on Guadalcanal in hand-to-hand combat after the Japanese had evacuated the island. From what I read, he wrote this memoir soon after WWII ended, but it was never published, as far as I know.

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Re: Biographies of two WWII self-promoters

Unread post by Poetlister » Fri Dec 19, 2014 9:15 pm

Cla68 wrote:Retirees editing topics in their area of personal interest or related to their careers would be ideal for building Wikipedia.
I agree there. They will generally have different interests from their grandchildren, so may well fill in many of the innumerable holes in coverage.
"The higher we soar the smaller we appear to those who cannot fly" - Nietzsche

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Re: Biographies of two WWII self-promoters

Unread post by eagle » Sat Dec 20, 2014 8:15 pm

JCM wrote:And retired males, whose thinking processes become much less elastic after they hit 55 or so, will be particularly bad in that regard.
Respectfully, I find this assertion to be a bit troubling. I agree that as people age, their memory become less accurate and more selective. I also can accept that belief systems can become more entrenched. However, I have not seen any evidence of "thinking processes become much less elastic after they hit 55 or so"....

I'm not trying to pick a fight, but I would hate WO to spread a misconception that is not based in fact. Thanks.

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Re: Biographies of two WWII self-promoters

Unread post by eagle » Sat Dec 20, 2014 8:22 pm

Vigilant wrote:I can't wait for the Fox News watching, Sun City West residents to hit wikipedia...Never mind, most of them can't really use computers and are still on AoL.
Was not that one of the big intended audiences for Conservapedia? :D Actually, there are many retired academics who remain close to their pre-retirement academic stomping grounds.

I think it is much easier to train a retired person to edit Wikipedia than it is to train an immature Wikipedia administrator to be a decent human being.

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Re: Biographies of two WWII self-promoters

Unread post by JCM » Sat Dec 20, 2014 8:26 pm

eagle wrote:
JCM wrote:And retired males, whose thinking processes become much less elastic after they hit 55 or so, will be particularly bad in that regard.
Respectfully, I find this assertion to be a bit troubling. I agree that as people age, their memory become less accurate and more selective. I also can accept that belief systems can become more entrenched. However, I have not seen any evidence of "thinking processes become much less elastic after they hit 55 or so"....

I'm not trying to pick a fight, but I would hate WO to spread a misconception that is not based in fact. Thanks.
Good point. I base this on something I heard on a radio news show from a male of that age some time ago - the fact that the gentleman involved acknowledged he was, basically, criticizing himself at the time is why it has always stuck in my memory. And maybe a better way to phrase it would be that they become less open to new ideas. I assume, from the location in which it was stated, that it is true, although I believe the individual himself also said that such is not always true, particularly in those human males who have led more actively thoughtful lives, and especially those who have spent time trying to understand the different thinking of others. I regret to say that not being entirely sure how to best phrase a search of the net for material to support it, I haven't found anything directly addressing it, but I have to assume that, given where the source came from, that at least at the time it was considered accurate.

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Re: Biographies of WWII self-promoters

Unread post by EricBarbour » Sun Dec 21, 2014 12:36 am

Moved thread to a more suitable place.

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Re: Biographies of WWII self-promoters

Unread post by Poetlister » Sun Dec 21, 2014 12:29 pm

I suppose you can quote the old adage "you can't teach an old dog new tricks". It may be harder for the average elderly person to learn new things than for younger people. However, it's wrong to throw all elderly people on the scrap heap; we can find people from Isaac Newton and Alfred Tennyson to Ralph Vaughan Williams who did impressive things in their full maturity.
"The higher we soar the smaller we appear to those who cannot fly" - Nietzsche

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