Rupert Sheldrake's BLP conspiracy

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Rupert Sheldrake's BLP conspiracy

Unread post by Mancunium » Sun Nov 10, 2013 1:36 pm

Pseudoscientist Rupert Sheldrake Is Not Being Persecuted, And Is Not Like Galileo
New Republic, 8 November 2013 link
Rupert Sheldrake is a pseudoscientist who has made his name promoting various kinds of woo, including telepathy (including in dogs!), immaterial minds, and his crazy idea of “morphic resonance,” a Jung-ian theory in which all of nature participates in some giant collective memory. (He was once a real scientist, trained in biochemistry and cell biology at Cambridge, but somewhere went off the rails.)

[...]

Last summer someone decided to fix Sheldrake’s Wikipedia article, which, edited by his supporters, had been promoting Sheldrake’s woo in violation of Wikipedia policy on fringe science and pseudoscience. Perhaps you don’t know about this policy, but you can read about it at the link. It begins like this:

"When discussing topics that reliable sources say are pseudoscientific or fringe theories, editors should be careful not to present the pseudoscientific fringe views alongside the scientific or academic consensus as though they are opposing but still equal views. While pseudoscience may in some cases be significant to an article, it should not obfuscate the description or prominence of the mainstream views."

It’s a pretty good policy, and prevents people like Sheldrake and his deluded supporters from editing Wikipedia articles to give unwarranted credibility to their pseudoscience. And that policy allowed the rationalists to come in and clean up Sheldrake’s page, which they did.

Sheldrake eventually noticed his new, non-woo-spouting page, and responded in October on his own blog (“Science set free”) with a paranoid post called “Wikipedia under threat”. A sample:

"This summer, soon after the TED controversy, a commando squad of skeptics captured the Wikipedia page about me. They have occupied and controlled it ever since, rewriting my biography with as much negative bias as possible, to the point of defamation. At the beginning of the 'Talk' page, on which editorial changes are discussed, they have posted a warning to editors who do not share their biases: 'A common objection made by new arrivals is that the article presents Sheldrake’s work in an unsympathetic light and that criticism of it is too extensive or violates Wikipedia’s Neutral Point of View policy.'”

If you want some amusement, have a look at the Wikipedia “talk” page on Sheldrake’s bio. It will give you a newfound respect for Wikipedia editors, as the skeptics are over there just trying to ensure, as per Wikipedia policy, that Sheldrake’s pseudoscience is not presented as credible science.

Sheldrake continues his rant on his blog, blaming the editing of his page on the “Guerilla Skeptics on Wikipedia” (GSoW), a group dedicated to policing dubious pseudoscientific claims and giving skeptics themselves decent Wikipedia pages. Sheldrake writes:

The Guerrilla Skeptics are well trained, highly motivated, have an ideological agenda, and operate in teams, contrary to Wikipedia rules. The mastermind behind this organization is Susan Gerbik [sic]. She explains how her teams work in a training video. She now has over 90 guerrillas operating in 17 different languages. The teams are coordinated through secret Facebook pages. They check the credentials of new recruits to avoid infiltration. Their aim is to “control information”, and Ms Gerbik glories in the power that she and her warriors wield. They have already seized control of many Wikipedia pages, deleted entries on subjects they disapprove of, and boosted the biographies of atheists.

The “ideological agenda” here, though, is simply this: false or unsupported claims should not be presented as credible. If that’s an agenda, I’m all for it.

But Sheldrake is dead wrong in his accusations. The person who did most of the woo-removing edits of Sheldrake’s page, not a member of GSoW, has posted an article decisively refuting the claim that there is a Guerrilla Skeptic “conspiracy” to debunk Sheldrake. Tim Farley of Skeptical Software tools has investigated the edits thoroughly and confirmed that no Guerrilla Skeptics seem to have been involved. Farley also checked with the GSoW boss, Ms. Gerbic, who denies involvement. Farley concludes:

" . . . the central claim, that Guerrilla Skeptics are controlling Sheldrake’s bio, is demonstrably false. It is a classic conspiracy theory. I asked Susan Gerbic directly, and she confirmed that Sheldrake’s bio was not on their current project list. But you don’t need Susan’s word, just search for the name 'Sheldrake' at the project blog and you find only a post about a related article, and no indication they had worked on Sheldrake’s bio. (Believe me, they’re not shy about showing off their work – it’s part of their outreach efforts)."

Look in the editing history of the people actually editing Sheldrake’s article, and you’ll find only cursory overlap with articles the Guerrilla Skeptics have bragged about editing.

So Sheldrake and Weiler et. al. are actually complaining about the wrong thing entirely! Instead of floating conspiracy theories about the Guerrilla Skeptics, they should be studying the Wikipedia rules and trying to understand why it is their edits keep getting rejected.

Finally, a humorous comment on my own website by “Julie,” a member of the Guerrilla Skeptics on Wikipedia group, denies involvement:

"Hahaha we didn’t touch his page, even with our minds! We have a list of pages we want to edit and Sheldrake isn’t even on it! Maybe that’s the real reason for his tantrum."

Great blog! Brings all the facts together. I had no idea the BBC were involved in criticising us so I just had a rant about their terrible reporting on the program’s Facebook page! I expected more from the Beeb. [More on the BBC below.]

I love the bit about “even with our minds”!

So Sheldrake not only paints himself as a martyr again, but singles out the wrong group for “persecuting” him.

Sadly, now the BBC World Service itself is being played a fool by Sheldrake, as they have put The Woomeister on their station to proclaim his conspiracy theories.

If you go here on the BBC, and listen to the 5-minute interview with Sheldrake (starts 8:02, ends 12:44), you’ll see the sympathetic ear that the BBC interviewer lends to Sheldrake, not questioning his claims in the least.

Much of what Sheldrake says in the interview is untrue, and it’s all in service of telling the world not to believe his Wikipedia page because it was sabotaged by Guerrilla Skeptics, which also is “distorting hundreds of pages on Wikipedia.” That is wrong, and Sheldrake should know better because that segment was broadcast on November 5, three weeks after Farley’s piece was published. Nor does the BBC interviewer talk to the Guerrilla Skeptics, seek any contrary views, or ask Sheldrake any hard questions. The interviewer apparently didn’t investigate this whole issue beforehand. It’s just dreadful reporting. To be fair, the BBC says that they’ll talk about the “reliability of Wikipedia and Sheldrake’s Wikipedia page” this week. If anybody hears that segment, let us know. [Note: the BBC interviewer, Dan Damon, describes himself and his wife as "keen churchgoers."]

But I’m wondering why the BBC gives Sheldrake a voice at all. Why should their readers hear his paranoid rants? Would they allow a creationist to go on the air and argue that mainstream biologists are in a conspiracy to suppress the truth of a young earth and creation ex nihilo? Does a report of a new medical advance need to be “balanced” by the opinion of a homeopath?

Finally, Sheldrake’s American counterpart, Deepak Chopra, has written a piece on his own website decrying Wikipedia skepticism and the persecution of Sheldrake. Indeed, it takes one purveyor of pseudoscience to understand another. In a piece called “The rise and fall of militant skepticism,” Chopra writes:

You can see the results at the Wikipedia entry for Rupert Sheldrake, the British biologist who has served as a lightning rod for militant skeptics for several decades. Intelligent, highly trained, an impeccable thinker, and a true advocate for experimentation and validation, Sheldrake had the temerity to be skeptical about the everyday way that science is conducted. He made his first splash by questioning the accepted assumptions of Darwinian evolution, and most recently he published a cogent, well-received book about the hidden weaknesses in the scientific method, titled Science Set Free. His avowed aim is to expand science beyond its conventional boundaries in the hope that a new path to discovery can be opened up.

But you’d never know it from Sheldrake’s Wikipedia entry, which is largely derogatory and even defamatory, thanks to a concerted attack by a stubborn band of militant skeptics. Since I am close to Sheldrake personally and have Wikipedia woes of my own, it’s not fair for me to offer accusations over the extent to which Wikipedia is under attack. But the skeptics have been caught in the act, which is the pickle they find themselves in, as I mentioned at the outset of this post.

You can read a detailed account in a series of online posts written by Craig Weiler at his blog The Weiler Psi. Confronting the militant pests at Wikipedia resembles taking hold of a tar baby, as Weiler relates in his most recent post, pointedly entitled “Wikipedia: The Only Way to Win Is Not to Play.” The unsavory fact is that skeptics have figured out how to game Wikipedia’s attempts to provide fairness, and we are all the loser for it.

But the real loser is Chopra, whose own lucrative brand of woo is finally exposed as a lot of scientifically-sounding psychobabble.

Steve Novella has written a cogent takedown of the paranoia of both Chopra and Sheldrake on a post on Skepticblog called ”Chopra shoots at skepticism and misses.” Novella also has a few interesting words about whether the idea of God is a testable hypothesis.

There is, I suppose, a form of “militant skepticism” that is so skeptical that it won’t accept anything. But I’m not aware of anyone adhering to that view, except perhaps some postmodernists. Others are skeptical of some things that are, to all reasonable people, demonstrably true (there are some of these folks.) But the critics of Sheldrake and Chopra are not “militant skeptics.” They’re simply people who demand solid evidence for extraordinary claims of psychic phenomena and universal consciousness.

Let’s face it: we’ll never be free of people who lap up the woo of people like Chopra and Shedrake. There’s something about human psychology that is susceptible to this kind of stuff. All we can do is decry it as often as we can, and hope that those on the fence will listen to us. That is what Steve Novella and the Guerrilla Skeptics are doing, and more power to them.
Rupert_Sheldrake (T-H-L)

See also these threads on this forum:

Astrologers reveal Wikipedia's fatal flaw link

Chopra: "The credibility of Wikipedia may be at stake[!]" link
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Re: Rupert Sheldrake's BLP conspiracy

Unread post by Tippi Hadron » Sun Nov 10, 2013 5:19 pm

For unrelated reasons, I recently looked into the history of Barney the barney barney (T-C-L), the number three contributor to Sheldrake's biography in terms of "edits". My findings so far:

The account appears on 13 January 2012. Makes a number of edits to the biography of one Francis Pryor (T-H-L). Already knows how to do redirects, so likely returning user.

Francis Pryor is a British archaeologist and minor UK TV personality, and Barney seems to know a lot about him, including the fact that he was awarded an MBE "for services to tourism" in 1999 (for which he does not provide a source at first, but adds one later that same day).

In 1969, Pryor worked as a technician under archaeologist Doug Tushingham (T-H-L) at the Royal Ontario Museum in Toronto. According to Barney, Tushingham helped fund Pryor's first excavation project in the UK.

Barney goes on to create his first WP article, a biography of Pryor's mentor Tushingham, but keeps it short, including removing the birth date that an SPA ("Proudly Canadian") had inserted. SPA had copy-pasted an obituary, but there was meat in the obit, and the article could be considerably longer. Barney then takes the SPA to ANI for copyright infringement: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... =563717707

On 15 January 2012, Barney creates an article on Sophie Gurney (T-H-L), an artist whose first husband was entomologist M.G.M. Pryor (T-H-L). M.G.M. Pryor is related to Francis Pryor via his grandfather, Walter Marlborough Pryor (T-H-L).

On 17 January 2012, Barney edits the article on Philip Trevelyan (T-H-L), a farmer, film editor and director most noted for his 1971 film "The Moon and the Sledgehammer (T-H-L)" (an article to which Barney also contributed some positive sources). Trevelyan is married to Amy Eleanor Pryor, the youngest daughter of M.G.M. Pryor and his wife Sophie, née Raverat, later Gurney.

I think by now there is some evidence that Barney the barney barney is Francis Pryor or that he has a strong interest in Pryor and his family history. However, there is a Barney Sloane, another presenter of the BBC "Time Team" TV series, and a camera assistant called Barney Carmichael, also on Time Team: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/s ... clnk&gl=uk

Barney does not want to see Francis Pryor associated with mental illness: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia ... ncis_Pryor
Anon adding unreferenced information on alleged diagnosis of mental illness, and the subject working for mental health charity. I note that there is stigma attached to mental illness that there shouldn't be, but this still needs to be referenced, even if we make no value judgement on the effect on his life. I only find a blog post about "Frances Prior" (sic) [39] that doesn't look totally unreliable (it would help if they could spell his name right and not change his gender), and could be perhaps used to source more neutral facts, but doesn't look reliable enough to source this statement. Barney the barney barney (talk) 15:34, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
Could Barney be the return of Brunnian (T-C-L), who flounced off in 2010? See Brunnian's edit to Etton, Cambridgeshire (T-H-L): https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... =260698249
and this one to Maxey, Cambridgeshire (T-H-L): https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... =260698378
– look for Francis Pryor.

Also
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... &limit=500

https://twitter.com/pryorfrancis

http://unbound.co.uk/books/the-lifers-club

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Re: Rupert Sheldrake's BLP conspiracy

Unread post by Poetlister » Mon Nov 11, 2013 8:22 pm

The trouble with the pseudoscience rules is that some proponents genuinely believe that their views are valid if minority scientific theories, so are entitled to due coverage. To be fair, it can sometimes be hard to tell the difference, though not in Sheldrake's case.
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Re: Rupert Sheldrake's BLP conspiracy

Unread post by Mancunium » Sat Nov 23, 2013 6:12 pm

Why didn't someone tell me about the Wall of Text Problem sooner?

Deepak Chopra Responds to Pseudoscience Allegations. Jerry Coyne Fires Back
New Republic, 18 November 2013 link
Earlier this month, The New Republic republished a highly critical blogpost about author Rupert Sheldrake. Jerry Coyne, a University of Chicago professor and the author of Why Evolution is True referred to Sheldrake as a "pseudoscientist" and lampooned the allegation that Sheldrake was being persecuted by "militant skeptics." Coyne's piece also derided Deepak Chopra, the physician and alternative medicine figure who has been one of Sheldrake's defenders. Chopra responded with this letter to the editor—and Coyne, in turn responds to the letter below:

[... I am a scientist ... ]
-Deepak Chopra

[... no, you are aren't ...]
He apparently sees me as part of an establishment bent on silencing his profundities—a group of what he calls “militant skeptics” who have the temerity to purge the woo from his Wikipedia page. Ours is, he says, a “bullying, strident movement,” and in response parades his credentials like thoroughbred horses before a race. In light of his education and honors, how dare we question things like telepathy, minds without bodies, and “quantum consciousness”? [...]
-Jerry Coyne
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Re: Rupert Sheldrake's BLP conspiracy

Unread post by Mancunium » Mon Dec 09, 2013 5:57 pm

Is Our Take on Science Flawed?
OpEdNews, 9 December 2013 link
Envision This! will be interviewing Craig Weller, author of TED, Wikipedia And The Battle for the Internet. We will be speaking to Craig regarding his documentation of the controversy of TED regarding the removal of Rupert Sheldrake and other parapsychology researchers from the TEDx speakers list. The show will air at Wed December 11, 2013 at 8:00pm eastern time. If you are able to listen in, you will have the opportunity to call in and question Craig regarding his work. The url for the show is http://blogtalkradio.com/envision-this.

[...] Craig advocates for an end to "scientism, the belief system in which science and only science has all the answers to everything." He writes, "This regrettable condition acts to preclude their unbiased consideration of phenomena on the cutting edge of science." On this episode with Craig, Merry and Burl will explore how breaking free from this cultural meme of science as an "ism" (the ultimate arbiter of what may be thought and acted upon) can help humankind co-create a more inclusive, less materialistic future. Craig Weiler seeks to convince us that "skepticism is a form of bigotry," the next bigotry that we must confront to evolve into a more open-minded, evidence based culture. We will suggest that Craig is, himself, acting as a skeptic to scientism. Please join us on Wed., December 11, 2013 at 8:00 PM Eastern Time ...
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Re: Rupert Sheldrake's BLP conspiracy

Unread post by The Devil's Advocate » Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:31 pm

Whatever one thinks of Sheldrake's ideas, that does not mean he deserves this kind of treatment. Science Apologist seems to think it is cool to call him a "sometime biologist" as though such a demeaning statement is even remotely appropriate for a biography on a living person. A lot of the debunkers are not fond of the fact the man has actual credentials in the field from a prestigious university and are set on minimizing such details. I imagine if the man croaks sometime soon there will be a bit of cork-popping as they will become free to attack his reputation without worrying about that whole pesky BLP policy.

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Re: Rupert Sheldrake's BLP conspiracy

Unread post by Midsize Jake » Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:54 pm

The Devil's Advocate wrote:Science Apologist seems to think it is cool to call him a "sometime biologist" as though such a demeaning statement is even remotely appropriate for a biography on a living person. A lot of the debunkers are not fond of the fact the man has actual credentials in the field from a prestigious university and are set on minimizing such details.
It's not that demeaning; if you read the rest of the article, it states that he worked in the field for 9 years and then quit because it "does not explain how [differentiation is] established to start with." So Sheldrake himself might prefer to have the "sometime" in there, if only to make it more clear that he's largely rejected the field in favor of all this funky "holistic" stuff he's into now, which of course explains pretty much everything.

Mind you, I'm not saying you're wrong about the motives of the "debunkers." I'm just saying the word does make more sense (and is less offensive) in terms of overall context. And admittedly, most people aren't going to read past the first couple of paragraphs with this guy.

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Re: Rupert Sheldrake's BLP conspiracy

Unread post by The Devil's Advocate » Tue Dec 10, 2013 5:14 am

Midsize Jake wrote:It's not that demeaning; if you read the rest of the article, it states that he worked in the field for 9 years and then quit because it "does not explain how [differentiation is] established to start with." So Sheldrake himself might prefer to have the "sometime" in there, if only to make it more clear that he's largely rejected the field in favor of all this funky "holistic" stuff he's into now, which of course explains pretty much everything.

Mind you, I'm not saying you're wrong about the motives of the "debunkers." I'm just saying the word does make more sense (and is less offensive) in terms of overall context. And admittedly, most people aren't going to read past the first couple of paragraphs with this guy.
He refers to himself as a biologist and eschews the term "parapsychologist" on his official site. That is just one of a series of edits aimed at minimizing or belittling his academic background. Oh they also want to mock him for possibly using hallucinogenic substances.

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Re: Rupert Sheldrake's BLP conspiracy

Unread post by iii » Tue Dec 10, 2013 6:03 am

The Devil's Advocate wrote:He refers to himself as a biologist and eschews the term "parapsychologist" on his official site. That is just one of a series of edits aimed at minimizing or belittling his academic background.
Odd that you would import that evil motive onto me. Is he a biologist? I asked a few biologists. Haven't found one who said they would consider him still active in the field. Of course, the opinions of biologists mean nothing at that website. Is "sometime" the best way to put this? Is there any way to put this?
Oh they also want to mock him for possibly using hallucinogenic substances.
Who's mocking him? I think it makes him rather cool and more understandable if he is supportive of psychedelics. Carl Sagan liked to partake of cannabis, you know. Not sure why you think that's shameful.

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Re: Rupert Sheldrake's BLP conspiracy

Unread post by EricBarbour » Tue Dec 10, 2013 7:50 am

Tippi Hadron wrote:For unrelated reasons, I recently looked into the history of Barney the barney barney (T-C-L), the number three contributor to Sheldrake's biography in terms of "edits".
Thanks. I knew Barney smelled funny. :banana:

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Re: Rupert Sheldrake's BLP conspiracy

Unread post by The Devil's Advocate » Tue Dec 10, 2013 10:12 pm

iii wrote:Odd that you would import that evil motive onto me. Is he a biologist? I asked a few biologists. Haven't found one who said they would consider him still active in the field. Of course, the opinions of biologists mean nothing at that website. Is "sometime" the best way to put this? Is there any way to put this?
Can someone actually cease being a biologist? Did some body revoke his biologist credentials? Of course not, it is just a way to minimize him so as to minimize his recent work.
Who's mocking him? I think it makes him rather cool and more understandable if he is supportive of psychedelics. Carl Sagan liked to partake of cannabis, you know. Not sure why you think that's shameful.
See what "The Red Pen of Doom" said about it.

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Re: Rupert Sheldrake's BLP conspiracy

Unread post by Cla68 » Tue Dec 10, 2013 10:37 pm

In the long term, it's good that Sheldrake is being disparaged on WP by self-appointed defenders of science. It helps further discredit WP as a reliable source of information among the public. If I go to a bio of a controversial scientist and see that somone has added mildly pejorative info such as suggesting he might be on drugs or is a "part-time biologist", it's obvious that WP has no real editorial control or adult supervision.

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Re: Rupert Sheldrake's BLP conspiracy

Unread post by iii » Tue Dec 10, 2013 10:40 pm

The Devil's Advocate wrote:Can someone actually cease being a biologist? Did some body revoke his biologist credentials? Of course not, it is just a way to minimize him so as to minimize his recent work.
Really? You think it impossible to stop being a biologist? Fascinating perspective, but I think it's somewhat unusual.
The Devil's Advocate wrote:
iii wrote:Who's mocking him?
See what "The Red Pen of Doom" said about it.
The Red Pen of Doom wrote:because repeating Sheldrakes self admission of the relevance of Psychedelics to his concepts is somehow an attack? get fucking real.
Is that what you think is "mocking"? I honestly can't tell what you're upset about him saying.

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Re: Rupert Sheldrake's BLP conspiracy

Unread post by Midsize Jake » Wed Dec 11, 2013 1:10 am

The Devil's Advocate wrote:Can someone actually cease being a biologist? Did some body revoke his biologist credentials?
For the second time, if he himself says "I'm leaving the field of biology because it doesn't answer the questions I want answered," then it's appropriate enough to say he's no longer a biologist. You could still say he has a Ph.D. in Biology, but to insist that he's still a "biologist" at that point is actually a bit dubious, and might very well denigrate other biologists who haven't made a point of announcing that they've quit the field.

I'm not saying you couldn't make the argument; you can definitely make a case for it. But it's different from a situation where a Biology professor at a college decides to become a dean or a consultant, or something like that.

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Re: Rupert Sheldrake's BLP conspiracy

Unread post by Ming » Wed Dec 11, 2013 3:53 am

The Devil's Advocate wrote:That is just one of a series of edits aimed at minimizing or belittling his academic background.
Well, it seems to Ming that except for a few of the terrorized outsiders to the conflict, nobody really cares about that for its own sake. The part about his actual scientific accomplishments has been stuck at one short paragraph pretty much forever. What anyone can see is that Sheldrake, like Linus Pauling before him, has developed a bad case of "Yodeling Veterinarian of the Alps": So 85% of the fighting is between the supporters of his out-there ideas, and the Fringe Theory crusaders. His academic background seems to figure in the article on as far as it legitimizes his theories, but Ming would be happy enough for him to stay a biologist-with-no-qualifiers as long as the article is forthright about how his current interests don't have much to do with that.

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Re: Rupert Sheldrake's BLP conspiracy

Unread post by Zoloft » Wed Dec 11, 2013 4:00 am

Ming wrote:... What anyone can see is that Sheldrake, like Linus Pauling before him, has developed a bad case of "Yodeling Veterinarian of the Alps": ...
This. This is why I love this place.

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Re: Rupert Sheldrake's BLP conspiracy

Unread post by The Devil's Advocate » Wed Dec 11, 2013 5:12 am

iii wrote:
The Red Pen of Doom wrote:because repeating Sheldrakes self admission of the relevance of Psychedelics to his concepts is somehow an attack? get fucking real.
Is that what you think is "mocking"? I honestly can't tell what you're upset about him saying.
I was referring to this comment.
Midsize Jake wrote:For the second time, if he himself says "I'm leaving the field of biology because it doesn't answer the questions I want answered," then it's appropriate enough to say he's no longer a biologist. You could still say he has a Ph.D. in Biology, but to insist that he's still a "biologist" at that point is actually a bit dubious, and might very well denigrate other biologists who haven't made a point of announcing that they've quit the field.

I'm not saying you couldn't make the argument; you can definitely make a case for it. But it's different from a situation where a Biology professor at a college decides to become a dean or a consultant, or something like that.
Maybe you missed me mentioning it the first time around, but he actually still considers himself a biologist. It is more that his critics do not consider him a "true biologist" because of his ideas.

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Re: Rupert Sheldrake's BLP conspiracy

Unread post by Midsize Jake » Wed Dec 11, 2013 7:56 am

The Devil's Advocate wrote:Maybe you missed me mentioning it the first time around, but he actually still considers himself a biologist.
I didn't miss you mentioning it, I simply didn't consider it all that compelling an argument. Sure, it might be nice for him if they didn't put qualifiers on the word "biologist" there, but it would also be nice for me if people didn't put qualifiers like "occasionally" on the term "unstoppable sex mo-sheen" when writing about my own personal background. (Yeah, I know it's not the same thing... so sue me.)

By the way, has Sheldrake ever asked that the article on him be deleted, or even hinted at it as a desirable outcome? Frankly, he should.

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Re: Rupert Sheldrake's BLP conspiracy

Unread post by iii » Wed Dec 11, 2013 11:53 am

The Devil's Advocate wrote:
iii wrote:
The Red Pen of Doom wrote:because repeating Sheldrakes self admission of the relevance of Psychedelics to his concepts is somehow an attack? get fucking real.
Is that what you think is "mocking"? I honestly can't tell what you're upset about him saying.
I was referring to this comment.
That also doesn't seem like a "mocking" comment. Care to clarify?

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Re: Rupert Sheldrake's BLP conspiracy

Unread post by Poetlister » Wed Dec 11, 2013 8:52 pm

Cla68 wrote:In the long term, it's good that Sheldrake is being disparaged on WP by self-appointed defenders of science. It helps further discredit WP as a reliable source of information among the public. If I go to a bio of a controversial scientist and see that somone has added mildly pejorative info such as suggesting he might be on drugs or is a "part-time biologist", it's obvious that WP has no real editorial control or adult supervision.
You should read some stuff by Ben Goldacre (T-H-L), a qualified medical doctor. He has far nastier things to say about people, published in newspapers and books with full editorial control and adult supervision.
"The higher we soar the smaller we appear to those who cannot fly" - Nietzsche

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Re: Rupert Sheldrake's BLP conspiracy

Unread post by Mason » Sat Dec 14, 2013 1:48 am

The Devil's Advocate wrote:...that whole pesky BLP policy.
LOL, like you give a shit about BLP.
The Devil's Advocate wrote:He is a 60-something homeless guy with an addiction problem whose spent a quarter of his life in jail for minor offenses. I am pretty sure the brightest parts of his day involve some person saying "you're that guy on the Internet!" and asking to take a picture with him or get his autograph.--The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 04:20, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
Go ahead, pull the other one.

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Re: Rupert Sheldrake's BLP conspiracy

Unread post by The Devil's Advocate » Sat Dec 14, 2013 7:19 am

Mason wrote:
The Devil's Advocate wrote:...that whole pesky BLP policy.
LOL, like you give a shit about BLP.
The Devil's Advocate wrote:He is a 60-something homeless guy with an addiction problem whose spent a quarter of his life in jail for minor offenses. I am pretty sure the brightest parts of his day involve some person saying "you're that guy on the Internet!" and asking to take a picture with him or get his autograph.--The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 04:20, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
Go ahead, pull the other one.
I give a great deal of shit about living people, probably more than you do, I imagine. Dead ones too. Some of you lot just have your heads stuck so far up your asses that all you see is your own shit. Can't possibly imagine how someone can disagree with you on something like this and not be a psychopath right? Granted, tone and emotion does not carry well on the Internet so it is easier for you to just assume whatever the hell you want of a person based on your own preconceptions rather than empathize with them.

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Re: Rupert Sheldrake's BLP conspiracy

Unread post by The Adversary » Sat Dec 14, 2013 7:36 am

The Devil's Advocate wrote:
Mason wrote:
The Devil's Advocate wrote:...that whole pesky BLP policy.
LOL, like you give a shit about BLP.
The Devil's Advocate wrote:He is a 60-something homeless guy with an addiction problem whose spent a quarter of his life in jail for minor offenses. I am pretty sure the brightest parts of his day involve some person saying "you're that guy on the Internet!" and asking to take a picture with him or get his autograph.--The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 04:20, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
Go ahead, pull the other one.
I give a great deal of shit about living people, probably more than you do, I imagine. Dead ones too. <redacted> Can't possibly imagine how someone can disagree with you on something like this and not be a psychopath right? Granted, tone and emotion does not carry well on the Internet so it is easier for you to just assume whatever the hell you want of a person based on your own preconceptions rather than empathize with them.
If anyone used that language in my presence in RL, I would just stand up and walk away. (Trust me; I´ve done it many times.)
I don´t see why I should tolerate such language here.

Mods: is there somehow I can "not see" the posts of TDA?

<edit>
Found it! Now I get "This post was made by The Devil's Advocate who is currently on your ignore list. Display this post."
Much better.

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Re: Rupert Sheldrake's BLP conspiracy

Unread post by Midsize Jake » Sat Dec 14, 2013 7:56 am

The Devil's Advocate wrote:Some of you lot just have your heads stuck so far up your asses that all you see is your own shit. Can't possibly imagine how someone can disagree with you on something like this and not be a psychopath right?
Temper! :angryfire:

These could be mere cultural differences, actually. In Henry Earl's case, someone with a more cosmopolitan or upper-class upbringing could easily have seen the article as an appalling affront to the subject's basic human dignity, whether or not said subject actually enjoys (enjoyed?) the added notoriety. The BLP policy, flawed though it is, does not direct Wikipedians to simply fulfill the subject's wishes in all respects, nor should it - the result would be even worse than Facebook, content-wise. (Obviously there should be a means for subjects to opt out of BLP articles altogether, but the WP folks are obviously never going to agree to something that might mean them losing their collective revenge-fantasies any time soon.)

It's probably hard to accept that there is no right or wrong answer, and this is true in more cases than (I suspect) most Wikipedians are willing to admit - including both of the cases in question. As always, the real problem is that Wikipedians have arrogated unto themselves the right to determine these answers without having any legitimacy with which to do so, and Google makes them difficult to ignore.

None of this should be taken to mean that the rest of us don't think you're a psychopath, though.

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Re: Rupert Sheldrake's BLP conspiracy

Unread post by Lukeno94 » Sat Dec 14, 2013 10:06 am

I most certainly haven't had an upper-class upbringing, and I still see the Henry Earl case as a vile example of demonizing someone. Then again, I was brought up with the knowledge that tabloid newspapers are also vile, so...

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Re: Rupert Sheldrake's BLP conspiracy

Unread post by Ming » Sat Dec 14, 2013 4:05 pm

Midsize Jake wrote:In Henry Earl's case, someone with a more cosmopolitan or upper-class upbringing could easily have seen the article as an appalling affront to the subject's basic human dignity, whether or not said subject actually enjoys (enjoyed?) the added notoriety. The BLP policy, flawed though it is, does not direct Wikipedians to simply fulfill the subject's wishes in all respects, nor should it - the result would be even worse than Facebook, content-wise.
The Earl case is hardly like the Sheldrake case. Sheldrake is a publicity hound, and I suspect he really wants a Wikipedia article written according to his design rather how all others who are aware of him assess his theories. Earl is being made a spectacle. Ming insists that he is exactly the sort of person that the moral considerations of the BLP policy are supposed to be protecting. The inevitable problem is that WP, as with all online projects, is heavily populated with Asperger-ish clods who are incapable of formulating real moral thinking about interactions with other people, so the mere fact that he's stuck in the paper as a piece of freak show news means that we have to participate too.

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Re: Rupert Sheldrake's BLP conspiracy

Unread post by Hex » Sat Dec 14, 2013 4:27 pm

Ming wrote:WP, as with all online projects, is heavily populated with Asperger-ish clods who are incapable of formulating real moral thinking about interactions with other people
Well put.
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Yes, but in the end it wouldn't be an encyclopedia. It would be a wiki. -- WardCunningham (Jan 2001)

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Re: Rupert Sheldrake's BLP conspiracy

Unread post by Mason » Sat Dec 14, 2013 7:03 pm

Ming wrote:The Earl case is hardly like the Sheldrake case. Sheldrake is a publicity hound, and I suspect he really wants a Wikipedia article written according to his design rather how all others who are aware of him assess his theories. Earl is being made a spectacle. Ming insists that he is exactly the sort of person that the moral considerations of the BLP policy are supposed to be protecting. The inevitable problem is that WP, as with all online projects, is heavily populated with Asperger-ish clods who are incapable of formulating real moral thinking about interactions with other people, so the mere fact that he's stuck in the paper as a piece of freak show news means that we have to participate too.
:applause:

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Re: Rupert Sheldrake's BLP conspiracy

Unread post by SB_Johnny » Sat Dec 14, 2013 9:42 pm

Mason wrote:
Ming wrote:The Earl case is hardly like the Sheldrake case. Sheldrake is a publicity hound, and I suspect he really wants a Wikipedia article written according to his design rather how all others who are aware of him assess his theories. Earl is being made a spectacle. Ming insists that he is exactly the sort of person that the moral considerations of the BLP policy are supposed to be protecting. The inevitable problem is that WP, as with all online projects, is heavily populated with Asperger-ish clods who are incapable of formulating real moral thinking about interactions with other people, so the mere fact that he's stuck in the paper as a piece of freak show news means that we have to participate too.
:applause:
A blog post to that effect would be a coup on the one hand, but adding to the problem on the other. Huh.
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Re: Rupert Sheldrake's BLP conspiracy

Unread post by The Devil's Advocate » Sun Dec 15, 2013 9:57 am

Ming wrote:The Earl case is hardly like the Sheldrake case. Sheldrake is a publicity hound, and I suspect he really wants a Wikipedia article written according to his design rather how all others who are aware of him assess his theories. Earl is being made a spectacle. Ming insists that he is exactly the sort of person that the moral considerations of the BLP policy are supposed to be protecting. The inevitable problem is that WP, as with all online projects, is heavily populated with Asperger-ish clods who are incapable of formulating real moral thinking about interactions with other people, so the mere fact that he's stuck in the paper as a piece of freak show news means that we have to participate too.
The moral considerations of the BLP policy are supposed to protect everyone. Sheldrake trying to publicize ideas certain people find detestable does not mean he should not be protected.

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Re: Rupert Sheldrake's BLP conspiracy

Unread post by Pen » Sun Dec 15, 2013 11:59 am

I really think you lot should take 60 seconds to google sociopath.

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Re: Rupert Sheldrake's BLP conspiracy

Unread post by Ming » Sun Dec 15, 2013 1:53 pm

The Devil's Advocate wrote:
Ming wrote:The Earl case is hardly like the Sheldrake case. Sheldrake is a publicity hound, and I suspect he really wants a Wikipedia article written according to his design rather how all others who are aware of him assess his theories. Earl is being made a spectacle. Ming insists that he is exactly the sort of person that the moral considerations of the BLP policy are supposed to be protecting. The inevitable problem is that WP, as with all online projects, is heavily populated with Asperger-ish clods who are incapable of formulating real moral thinking about interactions with other people, so the mere fact that he's stuck in the paper as a piece of freak show news means that we have to participate too.
The moral considerations of the BLP policy are supposed to protect everyone. Sheldrake trying to publicize ideas certain people find detestable does not mean he should not be protected.
Protected from exactly what? Publicizing his novel ideas is what the article is about, one way or the other; the endless pettifogging fight over "former" biologist is powered by the reality that he's now a professional scientific heretic. Ming personally believes that he's right to be skeptical about the whole "dark matter/energy" hack in cosmology, but Ming has a lot of company in that, and he doesn't think that there would be much surprise if those notions were eventually replaced by something concrete. After that, though, the dominant tune is the old woo-woo song of "scientists are blinded by their dogmas" which inevitably leads to a weakening or abandonment of scientific method, with the equally inevitable result of endorsing classic pre/pseudo-scientific ideas. In his case, the most argued one at the moment is this sympathetic telepathy of pets reading their owners, which is an extremely ancient idea.

The arguments over BLP issues are at present a proxy for the real fight of whether Wikipedia endorses his "heresies". Things have taken the typical path of endless wrangling over the (in Ming's opinion pathetically sketchy) proof of his ideas, and a ridiculous emphasis on the two or three people who think he may have something in one or the other of his unorthodox ideas, to the point of placing at least one person who clearly thinks Sheldrake's ideas are unfounded among his supporters by picking at a few phrases and ignoring the rest. This is typical stuff for a pseudoscientific notion that acquires a following; the difference perhaps is that Sheldrake's ideas, unlike astrology or various other much more widely known and followed systems, do not attract enough attention to make scientists want to put a great effort into a positive refutation.

The supposed BLP issues cannot be straightened out because it's to the advantage of Sheldrake's supporters to confound them with the pseudoscience issues. The way that they go on and on is also typical for these subjects. The only way this thing is going to make progress is for his most verbose supporters to be at least topic-banned.

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Re: Rupert Sheldrake's BLP conspiracy

Unread post by iii » Sun Dec 15, 2013 3:40 pm

Ming wrote:Ming personally believes that he's right to be skeptical about the whole "dark matter/energy" hack in cosmology, but Ming has a lot of company in that, and he doesn't think that there would be much surprise if those notions were eventually replaced by something concrete.
Sheldrake's attempt at critiquing those concepts does not rise to the level of being recognizable as fact-based commentary. It's much closer to rumor mongering and magical thinking. (Perpetual motion? Seriously, is this the nineteenth century?) In thousands of papers in the peer-reviewed literature, there are crowds of competent physicists and astronomers who actively struggle with the evidence and theories surrounding the dark sector. As far as I can tell, Sheldrake is completely oblivious to the existence of this community. If he himself weren't so obscure, his commentary on those ideas would be insulting.

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Re: Rupert Sheldrake's BLP conspiracy

Unread post by Ming » Wed Dec 18, 2013 3:47 pm

Things are not looking so good for Barleybannocks (T-C-L) in AE Land.
Last edited by Zoloft on Wed Dec 18, 2013 9:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: fix URL

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Re: Rupert Sheldrake's BLP conspiracy

Unread post by 560wasbullied » Wed Dec 18, 2013 7:39 pm

iii wrote:
Ming wrote:Ming personally believes that he's right to be skeptical about the whole "dark matter/energy" hack in cosmology, but Ming has a lot of company in that, and he doesn't think that there would be much surprise if those notions were eventually replaced by something concrete.
Sheldrake's attempt at critiquing those concepts does not rise to the level of being recognizable as fact-based commentary. It's much closer to rumor mongering and magical thinking.
Not really. It's akin to philosophy. it's a bit disingenuous to take someone who is exploring philosophical concepts such as pan psychism or the extended mind, both valid academic philosophical ideas discussed often and hanging a pseudoscience hat on them for doing so. Why don't they go over to David Chalmers wiki page and accuse him of pseudoscience?

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Re: Rupert Sheldrake's BLP conspiracy

Unread post by Midsize Jake » Wed Dec 18, 2013 8:12 pm

560wasbullied wrote:Not really. It's akin to philosophy. it's a bit disingenuous to take someone who is exploring philosophical concepts such as pan psychism or the extended mind, both valid academic philosophical ideas discussed often and hanging a pseudoscience hat on them for doing so.
I believe you're addressing a different point here. The posters above were referring to Sheldrake's attempt to draw equivalence between his field and that of modern cosmology, under the assumption that he's doing this because much of it posits the existence of things (such as dark matter, etc.) which cannot currently be demonstrated to exist or not exist in a way that would absolutely satisfy everyone.

Sheldrake's own ideas regarding the "extended mind," and whether or not they are philosophical in nature, are a separate issue.
Why don't they go over to David Chalmers wiki page and accuse him of pseudoscience?
That's actually a good question, but I suspect it's because the whole notion of mind-body dualism has fallen into its own convention, one that sets it apart from science per se because it isn't really a practical concept. Whereas, mental telepathy would obviously be an extremely practical thing if it could be made to actually work... So, Chalmers gets a pass while folks like Sheldrake do not.

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Re: Rupert Sheldrake's BLP conspiracy

Unread post by Ming » Wed Dec 18, 2013 8:24 pm

Midsize Jake wrote:
Why don't they go over to David Chalmers wiki page and accuse him of pseudoscience?
That's actually a good question, but I suspect it's because the whole notion of mind-body dualism has fallen into its own convention, one that sets it apart from science per se because it isn't really a practical concept. Whereas, mental telepathy would obviously be an extremely practical thing if it could be made to actually work... So, Chalmers gets a pass while folks like Sheldrake do not.
There's also the fact that Chalmers admits that his views are atypical for the field, unlike Sheldrake who is saying that everyone else is definitely wrong.

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Re: Rupert Sheldrake's BLP conspiracy

Unread post by 560wasbullied » Fri Dec 20, 2013 10:36 pm

Ming wrote:
Midsize Jake wrote:
Why don't they go over to David Chalmers wiki page and accuse him of pseudoscience?
That's actually a good question, but I suspect it's because the whole notion of mind-body dualism has fallen into its own convention, one that sets it apart from science per se because it isn't really a practical concept. Whereas, mental telepathy would obviously be an extremely practical thing if it could be made to actually work... So, Chalmers gets a pass while folks like Sheldrake do not.
There's also the fact that Chalmers admits that his views are atypical for the field, unlike Sheldrake who is saying that everyone else is definitely wrong.
to be fair tho - Sheldrake is saying reductionism is 'flawed' while Chalmers does not critique reductionism at all. Everything about consciousness is 'given a pass' philosophically speaking, at least it should be as long as we understand there is a distinction. And Chalmers is not really given a pass either, lol you can find a lot of discussion forums where he gets called worse than sheldrake. They just cant to after him on Wikipedia because no one would take it seriously academically. Sheldrake is the one who gets a pass, because his philosophical works get held in the light of science.

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Re: Rupert Sheldrake's BLP conspiracy

Unread post by Ming » Thu Dec 26, 2013 11:06 pm

...aaaaand another topic ban goes out, this time to Alonzo Green (T-C-L): https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... =587454235

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Re: Rupert Sheldrake's BLP conspiracy

Unread post by The Devil's Advocate » Fri Dec 27, 2013 12:31 am

Congrats to the debunkers on their ongoing success in systematically eliminating their opposition. That will teach those uppity fringers not to fuck with your efforts to attack and discredit all those whose views you detest.

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Re: Rupert Sheldrake's BLP conspiracy

Unread post by iii » Fri Dec 27, 2013 11:52 pm

560wasbullied wrote:Why don't they go over to David Chalmers wiki page and accuse him of pseudoscience?
Because he's not doing pseudoscience (yet). His anti-physicalist proposals are always kept on the level of the strictly skeptical with respect to the one area which he actually has considerable expertise (cognitive science). To the extent that no one knows the answer to the questions he is asking, he keeps himself on firm empirical ground. Paul Davies and Michio Kaku play a similar game in physics and cosmology. Additionally, Chalmers' attempted revival of panpsychism is kept on the basis of strictly non-empirical claims which is to say that he is only proposing that his idea cannot be excluded rather than proposing he has evidence for his idea. He definitely runs the risk of falling off the wagon, but he always somehow manages to pull himself back on board just as you think he's going to tumble off.

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Re: Rupert Sheldrake's BLP conspiracy

Unread post by Cla68 » Sat Dec 28, 2013 1:16 am

The Devil's Advocate wrote:Congrats to the debunkers on their ongoing success in systematically eliminating their opposition. That will teach those uppity fringers not to fuck with your efforts to attack and discredit all those whose views you detest.
Don't be surprised to continue to see GeorgeWilliamHerbert, MastCell, and NuclearWarfare selectively get involved with AE cases involving science topics. Also, don't be surprised to see JzG continue to abuse his admin privileges in an attempt to keep the world safe from ideas he doesn't approve of.

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