Private Manning arbitration

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Re: Private Manning arbitration

Unread post by Anroth » Tue Oct 08, 2013 9:43 pm

After what happened with the author who was notable as a man before they had a sex change, I am surprised anyone could get worked up over wikipedias arse backwards approach to article naming.

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Re: Private Manning arbitration

Unread post by Vigilant » Wed Oct 09, 2013 4:10 am

Hard to argue with this guy.
Would someone be kind enough to explain the inconsistency of how one can still be sanctioned when the findings that these sanctions are based on do not pass? Especially if one of your colleagues insists that that a single statement isn't sufficient evidence? The fact that you're having problems notifying the accused editors almost two months after the fact would be somewhat farcical in a Keystone Kops sorta way were it not for the irrational insistence on holding those people accountable for essentially meaningless thought-crimes. Add to that the fact that if one person proposed something the general public regarded as ridiculous and political, they should expect ridiculous and political discourse to follow. Sorry, people get offended...it's a fact of life. But if they don't want to get burned they shouldn't touch the oven...and they sure as hell shouldn't be starting fires. But to start a fire and hold other people accountable for the consequences...it's quite frankly stupid. Years ago there was a big blowup over whether Armenia was in Europe or Asia...and it became bitter and offensive...but every time the debate started, it was intentional provocation. This entire imbroglio started likely for similar reasons...it was a political statement and a provocative one at that. The fact that this entire process is inconsistent and lacking credibility because of the flaws is alarming. If it were up to me, close it off move on. I received a notice inviting me to comment, I commented...I pointed to policy and gave my opinion. I don't care if you disagree with my opinion or if someone's feelings were hurt. Too bad. I could care less about someone nursing wounds and saying "you're bad" because no one wants to let them have their way. I'm shocked you all have wasted two months over what I consider bullshit. And it's bullshit I forgot about two months ago. I apologize if you see that I have contempt for this process and this nonsense. Seriously, if you can't see how much of a waste of time this is, I feel bad for you...but that's not my problem...and two months later, I'd appreciate it if you'd move on like most of us already have and not waste my time any further with this nonsense. I have better things to do, and have been doing them, until yesterday when someone decided to notify me two months later. --ColonelHenry (talk) 02:59, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
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Re: Private Manning arbitration

Unread post by Tarc » Wed Oct 09, 2013 7:39 pm

Vigilant wrote:Hard to argue with this guy.
It is quite ridiculous for a finding-of-fact to fail and a topic-ban to pass, I agree. But his "I didn't know nuttin about no case!" shtick is equally so. He was notified on the 15th; he manually archived most of his talk page on the 28th. Around the next time my landlord usually sends the rent reminder, I'll make sure just let the mail gather for that week and then toss it out unseen. Surely she'll understand. :fool:
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Re: Private Manning arbitration

Unread post by Vigilant » Wed Oct 09, 2013 10:38 pm

Ooooh, tarc getting spanked by der Jimmmbo
Tarc, your conduct in this matter has been reprehensible. Adding yet another personal attack (the sarcastic remark 'genius') is not helpful.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 12:10, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
I'm sure you're feeling ashamed and chagrined right now.
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Re: Private Manning arbitration

Unread post by Mancunium » Wed Oct 09, 2013 10:56 pm

Vigilant wrote:Ooooh, tarc getting spanked by der Jimmmbo
Tarc, your conduct in this matter has been reprehensible. Adding yet another personal attack (the sarcastic remark 'genius') is not helpful.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 12:10, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
I'm sure you're feeling ashamed and chagrined right now.
Maybe Jimbo is like Tarc, and will someday reveal that he has been conducting a "social experiment" by pretending to be a douchebag for the last 40 years.
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Re: Private Manning arbitration

Unread post by Vigilant » Wed Oct 09, 2013 11:03 pm

Mancunium wrote:
Vigilant wrote:Ooooh, tarc getting spanked by der Jimmmbo
Tarc, your conduct in this matter has been reprehensible. Adding yet another personal attack (the sarcastic remark 'genius') is not helpful.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 12:10, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
I'm sure you're feeling ashamed and chagrined right now.
Maybe Jimbo is like Tarc, and will someday reveal that he has been conducting a "social experiment" by pretending to be a douchebag for the last 40 years.
The long con is the best con.
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Re: Private Manning arbitration

Unread post by Cla68 » Wed Oct 09, 2013 11:54 pm

Vigilant wrote:
Mancunium wrote:
Vigilant wrote:Ooooh, tarc getting spanked by der Jimmmbo
Tarc, your conduct in this matter has been reprehensible. Adding yet another personal attack (the sarcastic remark 'genius') is not helpful.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 12:10, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
I'm sure you're feeling ashamed and chagrined right now.
Maybe Jimbo is like Tarc, and will someday reveal that he has been conducting a "social experiment" by pretending to be a douchebag for the last 40 years.
The long con is the best con.
You mean, if Jimbo suddenly came out and said, "Guess what! I always intended Wikipedia as a troll. I never imagined that people would take it as seriously as they did. Guys, why don't you find a life? It was intended as a JOKE to indirectly attract people to BOMIS. LOL!"

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Re: Private Manning arbitration

Unread post by Tarc » Thu Oct 10, 2013 8:20 pm

Vigilant wrote:Ooooh, tarc getting spanked by der Jimmmbo
Tarc, your conduct in this matter has been reprehensible. Adding yet another personal attack (the sarcastic remark 'genius') is not helpful.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 12:10, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
I'm sure you're feeling ashamed and chagrined right now.
Jimbo was just sipping one last drop of Josh Gorand's kool-aid here, I'll give him a pass for now.

But onto far more amusing things; flip-flopper #1 has stepped to the plate, and his name is NewYorkBrad.

:applause:
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Re: Private Manning arbitration

Unread post by Vigilant » Thu Oct 10, 2013 8:53 pm

Tarc wrote:
Vigilant wrote:Ooooh, tarc getting spanked by der Jimmmbo
Tarc, your conduct in this matter has been reprehensible. Adding yet another personal attack (the sarcastic remark 'genius') is not helpful.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 12:10, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
I'm sure you're feeling ashamed and chagrined right now.
Jimbo was just sipping one last drop of Josh Gorand's kool-aid here, I'll give him a pass for now.

But onto far more amusing things; flip-flopper #1 has stepped to the plate, and his name is NewYorkBrad.

:applause:
That's what you get for committing Lèse_majesté (T-H-L).

I stand by my previous comparison of en.wp to the Westboro_Baptist_Church (T-H-L).

Until they kick Gerard to the curb for being a giant douche, they can go pound sand
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Re: Private Manning arbitration

Unread post by EricBarbour » Thu Oct 10, 2013 9:49 pm

Vigilant wrote:
Tarc wrote:But onto far more amusing things; flip-flopper #1 has stepped to the plate, and his name is NewYorkBrad.
That's what you get for committing Lèse_majesté (T-H-L).
"We are not amused"

Hey, Ira:
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Re: Private Manning arbitration

Unread post by Zoloft » Fri Oct 11, 2013 12:19 am

Tarc wrote:
Vigilant wrote:Ooooh, tarc getting spanked by der Jimmmbo
Tarc, your conduct in this matter has been reprehensible. Adding yet another personal attack (the sarcastic remark 'genius') is not helpful.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 12:10, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
I'm sure you're feeling ashamed and chagrined right now.
Jimbo was just sipping one last drop of Josh Gorand's kool-aid here, I'll give him a pass for now.

But onto far more amusing things; flip-flopper #1 has stepped to the plate, and his name is NewYorkBrad.

:applause:
Newyorkbrad wrote: ...in a single-buttock fashion
<_<

He... used... a euphemism... for "half-assed."

:blink:

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Re: Private Manning arbitration

Unread post by Wer900 » Fri Oct 11, 2013 1:16 am

None of this matters.

David Gerard needs an Okeyes-style defrocking.
Obvious civility robots are obvious

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Re: Private Manning arbitration

Unread post by Vigilant » Fri Oct 11, 2013 1:56 am

Wer900 wrote:None of this matters.

David Gerard needs an Okeyes-style defrocking.
He needs to be rogered with a prize winning leek.
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Re: Private Manning arbitration

Unread post by Zoloft » Fri Oct 11, 2013 1:57 am

Vigilant wrote:
Wer900 wrote:None of this matters.

David Gerard needs an Okeyes-style defrocking.
He needs to be rogered with a prize winning leek.
That's a maneuver known as 'The Welsh Hurrah.'

There really should be a Wikipedia article on that.

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Re: Private Manning arbitration

Unread post by The Joy » Fri Oct 11, 2013 2:48 am

Tarc wrote:
Vigilant wrote:Ooooh, tarc getting spanked by der Jimmmbo
Tarc, your conduct in this matter has been reprehensible. Adding yet another personal attack (the sarcastic remark 'genius') is not helpful.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 12:10, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
I'm sure you're feeling ashamed and chagrined right now.
Jimbo was just sipping one last drop of Josh Gorand's kool-aid here, I'll give him a pass for now.

But onto far more amusing things; flip-flopper #1 has stepped to the plate, and his name is NewYorkBrad.

:applause:
Why is this site's name removed from his speech? Is WP:BADSITES de facto policy now?
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Re: Private Manning arbitration

Unread post by EricBarbour » Fri Oct 11, 2013 3:35 am

The Joy wrote:
Tarc wrote:But onto far more amusing things; flip-flopper #1 has stepped to the plate, and his name is NewYorkBrad.
Why is this site's name removed from his speech? Is WP:BADSITES de facto policy now?
Silence, knave! The Great Hebrew Pumpkin speaketh, however incoherently!

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Re: Private Manning arbitration

Unread post by Vigilant » Fri Oct 11, 2013 4:13 am

EricBarbour wrote:
The Joy wrote:
Tarc wrote:But onto far more amusing things; flip-flopper #1 has stepped to the plate, and his name is NewYorkBrad.
Why is this site's name removed from his speech? Is WP:BADSITES de facto policy now?
Silence, knave! The Great Hebrew Pumpkin speaketh, however incoherently!
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Re: Private Manning arbitration

Unread post by Silent Editor » Fri Oct 11, 2013 4:17 am

Tarc wrote:
Vigilant wrote:Ooooh, tarc getting spanked by der Jimmmbo
Tarc, your conduct in this matter has been reprehensible. Adding yet another personal attack (the sarcastic remark 'genius') is not helpful.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 12:10, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
I'm sure you're feeling ashamed and chagrined right now.
Jimbo was just sipping one last drop of Josh Gorand's kool-aid here, I'll give him a pass for now.

But onto far more amusing things; flip-flopper #1 has stepped to the plate, and his name is NewYorkBrad.

:applause:
So it's worse to say bad things if you don't mean them, than if you do mean them? :blink:

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Re: Private Manning arbitration

Unread post by The Joy » Fri Oct 11, 2013 4:41 am

EricBarbour wrote:
The Joy wrote:
Tarc wrote:But onto far more amusing things; flip-flopper #1 has stepped to the plate, and his name is NewYorkBrad.
Why is this site's name removed from his speech? Is WP:BADSITES de facto policy now?
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Re: Private Manning arbitration

Unread post by Randy from Boise » Fri Oct 11, 2013 4:56 am

Silent Editor wrote:
Tarc wrote:
Vigilant wrote:Ooooh, tarc getting spanked by der Jimmmbo
Tarc, your conduct in this matter has been reprehensible. Adding yet another personal attack (the sarcastic remark 'genius') is not helpful.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 12:10, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
I'm sure you're feeling ashamed and chagrined right now.
Jimbo was just sipping one last drop of Josh Gorand's kool-aid here, I'll give him a pass for now.

But onto far more amusing things; flip-flopper #1 has stepped to the plate, and his name is NewYorkBrad.

:applause:
So it's worse to say bad things if you don't mean them, than if you do mean them? :blink:
A guy honking his car horn to avert a wreck or because he is legitimately pissed off at the bad driving of others is one thing. A dolt laying on his horn merely because he likes its sound is quite another. One is excusable, the other needs to be ticketed for noise pollution....

RfB

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Re: Private Manning arbitration

Unread post by Silent Editor » Fri Oct 11, 2013 5:50 am

Randy from Boise wrote:
Silent Editor wrote:
Tarc wrote:
Vigilant wrote:Ooooh, tarc getting spanked by der Jimmmbo
Tarc, your conduct in this matter has been reprehensible. Adding yet another personal attack (the sarcastic remark 'genius') is not helpful.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 12:10, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
I'm sure you're feeling ashamed and chagrined right now.
Jimbo was just sipping one last drop of Josh Gorand's kool-aid here, I'll give him a pass for now.

But onto far more amusing things; flip-flopper #1 has stepped to the plate, and his name is NewYorkBrad.

:applause:
So it's worse to say bad things if you don't mean them, than if you do mean them? :blink:
A guy honking his car horn to avert a wreck or because he is legitimately pissed off at the bad driving of others is one thing. A dolt laying on his horn merely because he likes its sound is quite another. One is excusable, the other needs to be ticketed for noise pollution....

RfB
But if there is no bad driving at all?

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Re: Private Manning arbitration

Unread post by Vigilant » Sat Oct 12, 2013 12:49 am

Ho ho!
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... =576782824
David Gerard restricted in use of tools

14.2) David Gerard (talk · contribs) is indefinitely prohibited from using his administrator permissions (i) on pages relating to transgender people or issues and (i) in situations involving such pages. This restriction may be first appealed after six months have elapsed, and every six months thereafter.

Support:

Proposed, in addition to the above and not as an alternative. It is quite apparent that David's lack of objectivity about these issues has been problematic. It is therefore appropriate to formalise our expectation that he restrain himself to the role of "involved editor", and not take administrative actions, in future disputes that are similar to this one. AGK [•] 22:25, 11 October 2013 (UTC)
A last chance stab in the eye. I love it!
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Re: Private Manning arbitration

Unread post by everyking » Sat Oct 12, 2013 1:57 am

Vigilant wrote:Ho ho!
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... =576782824
David Gerard restricted in use of tools

14.2) David Gerard (talk · contribs) is indefinitely prohibited from using his administrator permissions (i) on pages relating to transgender people or issues and (i) in situations involving such pages. This restriction may be first appealed after six months have elapsed, and every six months thereafter.

Support:

Proposed, in addition to the above and not as an alternative. It is quite apparent that David's lack of objectivity about these issues has been problematic. It is therefore appropriate to formalise our expectation that he restrain himself to the role of "involved editor", and not take administrative actions, in future disputes that are similar to this one. AGK [•] 22:25, 11 October 2013 (UTC)
A last chance stab in the eye. I love it!
He richly deserves to be desysopped. But something has to be done, and this is at least better than a mere admonishment.

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Re: Private Manning arbitration

Unread post by Vigilant » Tue Oct 15, 2013 11:45 pm

Ah look, it stuck at 7-3.

Gerard indefinitely restricted in his use of tools on transgender articles.

That effectively emasculates Gerard.
Fuck up again and it's into the lion's den, Davie boy.
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Re: Private Manning arbitration

Unread post by Vigilant » Tue Oct 15, 2013 11:58 pm

Cheeky devil!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_ ... jest.C3.A9
Lèse-majesté

I unwatched this page a week ago, but my inner Pacinois just too much to ignore those new-fangled ping notifications.

Let's lay a few things out here. I made statements in this case which in my mind if I was an outside party listening to them, I would say "that's prejudiced to transgender people and their supporters. Knowing that the makeup of the Arb Committee (and honestly, the make up of the average Wikpedian) is generally of the free culture, small-l libertarian bent; the champions of individual liberty and the laissez-faire style of governing, I wanted to see if they had they ability to step out of that and actually recognize the fact that people do not have the right to discriminate against others, even if that contradicts the cherished "individual liberty" belief.

Obviously, they don't.

If I had kept my mouth shut...and quite honestly near the end of dealing with the vile behavior of Josh Gorand, I was sorely tempted to do so...then nothing would have happened here at all. The finding-of-fact would have failed, and the topic-ban would have failed. But I'd rather have a minority think this was "just trolling" than for a majority to think I was actually a bigot. Any day.

So now where are we at? A topic ban from a topic that I never edited before, and 2 petulant calls for a ban from all BLPs. The latter is especially rich, as I'm pretty sure Arbcom cannot simply make up punishments without a corresponding finding of fact to show just how I have harmed BLPs in general in the past.

What we can conclude from all this is twofold; a person is free to express prejudiced points-of-view in this project as long as they are expressed civilly. Also, the supposedly august body of the project is fundamentally incapable of judging the merits of a complex social topic such as transgenderism, or really any LGBT topic for that matter. Noses are buried too far into arcane Wiki alphabet soup of policies, guidelines, and rules. There was a blindness here to the simple question of "if a man expresses a wish to be the woman that she always believed she was inside, and reliable sources acknowledge that, should the Wikipedia follow suit?"

The answer should have been simple; "yes". That Arbcom missed this small but important tree within the forest is to their everlasting shame.

I am guilty of Lèse-majesté here, nothing more.

Your resignations should be on Jimbo's virtual desk in the morning. Tarc (talk) 22:22, 15 October 2013 (UTC)
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Re: Private Manning arbitration

Unread post by EricBarbour » Wed Oct 16, 2013 12:11 am

Vigilant wrote:Gerard indefinitely restricted in his use of tools on transgender articles.

That effectively emasculates Gerard.
Fuck up again and it's into the lion's den, Davie boy.
Fear not, lad, he's got plenty of admin sockpuppets.....

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Re: Private Manning arbitration

Unread post by Wer900 » Wed Oct 16, 2013 12:23 am

EricBarbour wrote:
Vigilant wrote:Gerard indefinitely restricted in his use of tools on transgender articles.

That effectively emasculates Gerard.
Fuck up again and it's into the lion's den, Davie boy.
Fear not, lad, he's got plenty of admin sockpuppets.....
Examples? I am not doubting your assertion but I would like more detail.

Regarding your book, do you think that this case is a chapter worth writing? It's already millions of bytes long, and even if there is much heat and little light it does seem like a semi-watershed moment (David Gerard restricted at least in name, Baseball Bugs restricted, two Arbitrators resigning). You might want to do a section on Wiki-PR, and given the involvement of the ArbCom in that, one cannot help but wonder if David Gerard is benefitting in some way. A connection would be unproven at this point, but worth investigating.
Obvious civility robots are obvious

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Re: Private Manning arbitration

Unread post by EricBarbour » Wed Oct 16, 2013 12:36 am

Wer900 wrote:Examples? I am not doubting your assertion but I would like more detail.
Sorry, not in public. Don't want him killing off any socks. Want them to fester.
Regarding your book, do you think that this case is a chapter worth writing? It's already millions of bytes long, and even if there is much heat and little light it does seem like a semi-watershed moment (David Gerard restricted at least in name, Baseball Bugs restricted, two Arbitrators resigning). You might want to do a section on Wiki-PR, and given the involvement of the ArbCom in that, one cannot help but wonder if David Gerard is benefitting in some way. A connection would be unproven at this point, but worth investigating.
In passing, if at all. I do not think this is a "big deal". Gerard has survived far bigger attempts to rein him in.
Wiki-PR will be mentioned in the paid-editing chapter, since they were especially stupid/arrogant.

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Re: Private Manning arbitration

Unread post by Randy from Boise » Wed Oct 16, 2013 1:59 am

Final Decision.

A somewhat less horrible final decision than the tentative final decision of a week ago in that they gave Mr. Gerard a light whack on the butt. Not enough, but something... Also good to get Tarc mentioned, although I would have made it a loud admonishment for trolling...

Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Manning naming dispute closed link

This arbitration case has been closed and the final decision is available at the link above. The following remedies have been enacted:

Hitmonchan (T-C-L) is indefinitely topic-banned from all pages relating to any transgender topic or individual, broadly construed.

IFreedom1212 (T-C-L) is indefinitely topic-banned from all pages relating to any transgender topic or individual, broadly construed.

Tarc (T-C-L) is indefinitely topic-banned from all pages relating to any transgender topic or individual, broadly construed.

Josh Gorand (T-C-L) is indefinitely topic-banned from all pages relating to any transgender topic or individual, broadly construed.

Baseball Bugs (T-C-L) is indefinitely topic-banned from all pages relating to any transgender topic or individual, broadly construed. He is also topic banned from all pages (including biographies) related to leaks of classified information, broadly construed.

David Gerard (T-C-L) is admonished for acting in a manner incompatible with the community's expectations of administrators (see #David Gerard's use of tools).

David Gerard (T-C-L) is indefinitely prohibited from using his administrator permissions (i) on pages relating to transgender people or issues and (ii) in situations involving such pages. This restriction may be first appealed after six months have elapsed, and every six months thereafter.

The standard discretionary sanctions adopted in Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Sexology for (among other things) "all articles dealing with transgender issues" remain in force. For the avoidance of doubt, these discretionary sanctions apply to any dispute regarding the proper article title, pronoun usage, or other manner of referring to any individual known to be or self-identifying as transgender, including but not limited to Chelsea/Bradley Manning. Any sanctions imposed should be logged at the Sexology case, not this one.

All editors, especially those whose behavior was subject to a finding in this case, are reminded to maintain decorum and civility when engaged in discussions on Wikipedia, and to avoid commentary that demeans any other person, intentionally or not.
For the Arbitration Committee, Rschen7754 6:31 pm, Today (UTC−7)
Still an absolutely pointless waste of time, in the final analysis.

RfB

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Re: Private Manning arbitration

Unread post by Wer900 » Wed Oct 16, 2013 2:04 am

Please, Eric, transfer this to the book wiki as an original archive, even if you don't use it in your book. If any new developments happen this case could be oversighted; we cannot allow it to disappear from history, though.
Obvious civility robots are obvious

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Re: Private Manning arbitration

Unread post by Tarc » Wed Oct 16, 2013 2:58 am

Vigilant wrote:Cheeky devil!
Indeed. I did give credit to you for the "Lèse-majesté" line though, when I first dropped it on NYB on my talk page.

So, yea, topic-banned from a topic that I had virtually no input into before this. Boy, I sure feel chagrined now. :dubious: It was curious to see 2 (Fuchs, Courcelles) broach the idea of an all-encompassing BLP topic ban. I'm not well-versed in the history of Arbcom cases past, but popping ban proposals out of thin air with no supporting evidence of what one is claiming seems a bit novel.

So how :popcorn: -worthy is the next Arbcom election gonna be? Maybe I should run.
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Re: Private Manning arbitration

Unread post by TungstenCarbide » Wed Oct 16, 2013 2:59 am

Tarc wrote:.. So how -worthy is the next Arbcom election gonna be? Maybe I should run.
you'd be ideally suited
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Re: Private Manning arbitration

Unread post by Zoloft » Wed Oct 16, 2013 3:56 am

TungstenCarbide wrote:
Tarc wrote:.. So how -worthy is the next Arbcom election gonna be? Maybe I should run.
you'd be ideally suited
I believe the 'hasten-the-day' crowd here would uniformly line up behind you, except for those you have offended. So, at least one vote.

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Re: Private Manning arbitration

Unread post by Poetlister » Wed Oct 16, 2013 11:31 am

Vigilant wrote:That effectively emasculates Gerard.
You really have to be careful with your usage of metaphors. :D
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Re: Private Manning arbitration

Unread post by EricBarbour » Wed Oct 16, 2013 11:40 pm

Wer900 wrote:Please, Eric, transfer this to the book wiki as an original archive, even if you don't use it in your book. If any new developments happen this case could be oversighted; we cannot allow it to disappear from history, though.
The arbitration pages, or this thread?

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Re: Private Manning arbitration

Unread post by Wer900 » Thu Oct 17, 2013 12:56 am

EricBarbour wrote:
Wer900 wrote:Please, Eric, transfer this to the book wiki as an original archive, even if you don't use it in your book. If any new developments happen this case could be oversighted; we cannot allow it to disappear from history, though.
The arbitration pages, or this thread?
Arbitration pages, undoubtedly. I am not fearful for the survival of this site; backups for this can be made elsewhere.
Obvious civility robots are obvious

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Re: Private Manning arbitration

Unread post by EricBarbour » Thu Oct 17, 2013 2:09 am

Wer900 wrote:Arbitration pages, undoubtedly. I am not fearful for the survival of this site; backups for this can be made elsewhere.
Okay. There are a few arb pages that I wish I had copies of.....

You might mention to the sysops that keeping clean backups of the WO database, preferably in multiple hands, would be a really good idea.

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Re: Private Manning arbitration

Unread post by Zoloft » Thu Oct 17, 2013 3:11 am

EricBarbour wrote:
Wer900 wrote:Arbitration pages, undoubtedly. I am not fearful for the survival of this site; backups for this can be made elsewhere.
Okay. There are a few arb pages that I wish I had copies of.....

You might mention to the sysops that keeping clean backups of the WO database, preferably in multiple hands, would be a really good idea.
I have backups at multiple locations, including this one, which is ultimately under a second set of hands' control. More would be nice.

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Re: Private Manning arbitration

Unread post by The Devil's Advocate » Mon Oct 21, 2013 3:48 am

Looks like someone is not pleased with Gerard's incredibly mild sanction and is banging on ArbCom's door.

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Re: Private Manning arbitration

Unread post by EricBarbour » Mon Oct 21, 2013 4:13 am

The Devil's Advocate wrote:Looks like someone is not pleased with Gerard's incredibly mild sanction and is banging on ArbCom's door.
What, do I have to list Gerard's numerous past abuses? Again??

Ever looked at Adam Cuerden's RFA? It's comical.
Adam Cuerden (talk · contribs) - Er, well. I... think I could be a good admin, and believe I can be trusted with the power. But, er, I dunno, I'm a bit shy about even asking for the request, and try to avoid conflict beyond disagreements of opinion as much as possible - usually by attempting the whole "A civil word turns away wrath" method, and trying to negotiate and defuse situations. I guess that's probably a good thing... Ugh. I really hate writing about myself. Always seems rude to push yourself forward too much, and yet, I would like to help. Eh, I'll leave it up to the community to decide. Adam Cuerden talk 13:57, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Candidate, please indicate acceptance of the nomination here:

(I, of course, accept my own nomination.) Adam Cuerden talk 18:15, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
Plus, why is he helping Gerard, when they were fighting on Foundation-l a few months ago? Bribery?

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Re: Private Manning arbitration

Unread post by Randy from Boise » Mon Oct 21, 2013 7:03 am

EricBarbour wrote:
The Devil's Advocate wrote:Looks like someone is not pleased with Gerard's incredibly mild sanction and is banging on ArbCom's door.
What, do I have to list Gerard's numerous past abuses? Again??

Ever looked at Adam Cuerden's RFA? It's comical.
Adam Cuerden (talk · contribs) - Er, well. I... think I could be a good admin, and believe I can be trusted with the power. But, er, I dunno, I'm a bit shy about even asking for the request, and try to avoid conflict beyond disagreements of opinion as much as possible - usually by attempting the whole "A civil word turns away wrath" method, and trying to negotiate and defuse situations. I guess that's probably a good thing... Ugh. I really hate writing about myself. Always seems rude to push yourself forward too much, and yet, I would like to help. Eh, I'll leave it up to the community to decide. Adam Cuerden talk 13:57, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Candidate, please indicate acceptance of the nomination here:

(I, of course, accept my own nomination.) Adam Cuerden talk 18:15, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
Plus, why is he helping Gerard, when they were fighting on Foundation-l a few months ago? Bribery?
Politics makes strange bedfellows, as they say. AC was one of the very involved Warriors For Truth, Righteousness, and the Fundamental Human Right to Be Able to Change a Gender and a Wikipedia Article with a News Conference™ and he's just looking out for a teammate...

About 50% of the Administrators that won their buttons in 2004-2006 would never pass today. Maybe fewer than that. Of course, they tend to be the very same ones who make the current RFA process so unpleasant...

RfB

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Re: Private Manning arbitration

Unread post by Vigilant » Mon Oct 21, 2013 4:49 pm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia ... ion_report

Whining and crying.
Nice to see a WMF employee, Steven_Walling (T-C-L), publicly advocating to overturn an ARBCOM decision.

Get your house in order, WMF.
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Re: Private Manning arbitration

Unread post by Hex » Wed Oct 23, 2013 1:16 pm

Phil Sandifer (T-C-L) has posted a long piece on his blog about the arbitration and Cla68, whom he comes down upon heavily. There's an update at the end from today, showing a nastygram he's just received from AGK for mentioning Cla's real life details.

Oh - I didn't know. He's quit the project. No wonder he wasn't worried about posting the AGK email. Well, there goes another one of the project's oldest remaining editors.
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Re: Private Manning arbitration

Unread post by Mason » Wed Oct 23, 2013 2:36 pm

Hex wrote:Phil Sandifer (T-C-L) has posted a long piece on his blog about the arbitration and Cla68, whom he comes down upon heavily. There's an update at the end from today, showing a nastygram he's just received from AGK for mentioning Cla's real life details.

Oh - I didn't know. He's quit the project. No wonder he wasn't worried about posting the AGK email. Well, there goes another one of the project's oldest remaining editors.
Hard to argue with this bit:
Phil Sandifer wrote:In its determination to avoid creating any top-down editorial structure, Wikipedia has instead repeatedly embraced a system of rules designed to eliminate thought from the decision making process as much as possible.

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Re: Private Manning arbitration

Unread post by TungstenCarbide » Wed Oct 23, 2013 3:46 pm

Hex wrote:Well, there goes another one of the project's oldest remaining editors.
meh, I was an admin long before he made his first edit. He's always been a loud, self-rigorous jerk.
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Re: Private Manning arbitration

Unread post by Hex » Wed Oct 23, 2013 4:16 pm

I met a traveller from an antique land
Who said: "Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert. Near them on the sand,
Half sunk, a shattered visage lies, whose frown
And wrinkled lip and sneer of cold command
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
The hand that mocked them and the heart that fed.
And on the pedestal these words of merit:
'My name is TungstenCarbide, King of Kings:
Meh, I was an admin long before he made his first edit.'
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
The lone and level sands stretch far away."
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Re: Private Manning arbitration

Unread post by DanMurphy » Wed Oct 23, 2013 4:38 pm

UPDATE 10/23: So, I woke up to find this in my e-mail box:

Please contact the Arbitration Committee to explain why you have posted personal, non-public information about another contributor on your personal blog. This blog post has direct ramifications on the project, and may put you in gross violation of the project's norms and policies.

For the Arbitration Committee,

Anthony (AGK)
Ooooh... Sounds like we gotta baddass over here!

On the other hand, Sandifer sounds like a paranoid little lefty git.
The reason why I did this should be straightforward and obvious: it's in the public interest to know that employees of the US Military are attempting to covertly influence the tone and direction of Wikipedia's coverage of Chelsea Manning. I am not attempting to assert some sort of conspiracy - I'm sure that Ainsworth was acting on his own initiative, and that it's merely that his values align with those of his employer. However this does not change the fact that he is employed by the institution currently imprisoning Chelsea Manning and denying her medically necessary treatment for gender dysphoria, and that he is hypocritically trying to influence Wikipedia's coverage of this from behind a pseudonym while decrying other people for their conflicts of interest.

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Re: Private Manning arbitration

Unread post by Triptych » Wed Oct 23, 2013 5:35 pm

DanMurphy wrote:
UPDATE 10/23: So, I woke up to find this in my e-mail box:

Please contact the Arbitration Committee to explain why you have posted personal, non-public information about another contributor on your personal blog. This blog post has direct ramifications on the project, and may put you in gross violation of the project's norms and policies.

For the Arbitration Committee,

Anthony (AGK)
Ooooh... Sounds like we gotta baddass over here!
That's AGK the Policy Theorist, Arbcom's finest legal mind. I looked at Phil Sandifer's Wikipedia talkpage and AGK was there commanding him specifically to use the Wikipedia email function to contact Arbcom, despite putting the email address right there too. I wonder A) why AGK wouldn't use the email function himself to contact Sandifer instead, and B) why the accentuation on using the email function as opposed to emailing directly.
DanMurphy wrote:
On the other hand, Sandifer sounds like a paranoid little lefty git.
The reason why I did this should be straightforward and obvious: it's in the public interest to know that employees of the US Military are attempting to covertly influence the tone and direction of Wikipedia's coverage of Chelsea Manning.
Yeah, that is pretty lame. Cla68 said naught but his opinion among the many editors, right? Sandifer is hamming it up with this "covertly influence" jazz.
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Re: Private Manning arbitration

Unread post by Mason » Wed Oct 23, 2013 5:49 pm

Triptych wrote:I wonder A) why AGK wouldn't use the email function himself to contact Sandifer instead, and B) why the accentuation on using the email function as opposed to emailing directly.
ArbCom prefers ordering other people to do things they could easily do themselves (e.g. start an email conversation.) It's one of the less subtle ways in which they remind people of their status as the de facto government.

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Re: Private Manning arbitration

Unread post by The Devil's Advocate » Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:45 pm

A whole lot of spin in that blog post. I like how Gerard's conduct was trivialized as protecting the page when he knows some trans people, while Cla68 is lambasted for commenting on the case because he is one of millions working for the U.S. military. That Gerard was actively arguing with people about the title, while using his administrative powers to block any attempt at undoing his friend's action to the point of reverting another administrative action goes unmentioned. Some more transparent spin is present in his quoting of the arbitration case. He says he is not cherry-picking the best because he provided links to the diffs, but he clearly did cherry-pick even just comparing the diffs to the quotes, without considering how he left out such choice comments as "Any editor moving the article to Bradley Manning should be blocked instantly for BLP violation and sexual harrassment of the subject" and "Either Wikipedia allows transphobic bigotry or it doesn't. I hope it doesn't. So far as I can tell, you and several others hope it does." Furthermore, Sandifer neglects to mention how all the comments mentioned come from exactly two editors who made such comments repeatedly, while nearly all the other comments were one-off remarks.

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