Biographies of murdered persons

For discussions on privacy implications, including BLP issues
User avatar
Peter Damian
Habitué
Posts: 4201
kołdry
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 8:14 pm
Wikipedia User: Peter Damian
Wikipedia Review Member: Peter Damian
Location: London
Contact:

Biographies of murdered persons

Unread post by Peter Damian » Thu Sep 06, 2012 10:39 am

An unfortunate event recently (I'd appreciate it if those who know about it don't bring it up here) led me to a whole nest of articles about people who have been killed. Some examples in this search http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?tit ... ext=Search

There are some ghouls on Wikipedia who, presumably not having made it into journalism in the usual way, i.e. getting training, leading to paid employment, relieve their frustrated ambitions on the great encyclopedia that anyone can edit. There are many issues connected with this.

1. Having an article on Wikipedia is different from being written about in the tabloid press. Google ranking reflect current newsworthiness, which it soon loses once interest dies away. But the Wikipedia article always remains, forever, top of the search.

2. Sometimes the Wikipedia ghouls find pictures of the deceased. See e.g. this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Jill-Lyn_Euto . Have the relatives consented to this? Were they consulted? Sometimes the photos were issued by the police for identifying missing persons. Not for the purposes of illustrating Wikipedia.

3. There are sometimes there are public interest issues. But nearly all these articles go beyond the issue, and include a detailed biography.See e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Ian_Tomlinson . Given the public interest issue, i.e. presumed police brutality, why is there all this other stuff on there that is unrelated to the issue of interest? E.g. there is a whole section on Tomlinson life and supposed alcoholism, that he is a Millwall supporter and so on. Or this one http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Joanna_Yeates . Why is there an extensive biography?

3. Often there is no public interest issue. E.g. this article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_ ... ls-Westley is simply there due to the horrific manner of the killing. It may be of interest to the readers of the very lowest kind of publication, but what is it doing in an encyclopedia? Do the relatives of the person know the article is there? Were they ever asked? Or how about this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_ ... awn_Hirons "Although her official Death Certificate shows her first name as Brenda, she was most commonly known as Dawn at work and in private."

4. The ghouls have formed a mutual support club where they 'keep' an AfD. Obviously few other editors know of its existence. So, when it is a keep at 4-1, they say there is 'overwhelming consensus', and that 'the community' wants the article. Ahem, what community?

5. A lot of these articles seem to be about promoting some cause http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_ ... dner-Quinn . Hard to know who wrote them or why, but the key question is why they are in an 'encyclopedia'.

5. Closing administrators do not seem to understand the principles of fair use of photos, of 'Wikipedia is not news' and so on. Pretty much all the articles I have looked at are in violation of one policy or another. For example, there is a policy that 'breaking news', much of which is pure tabloid speculation, should not be included
οὐκ ἀγαθὸν πολυκοιρανίη: εἷς κοίρανος ἔστω

User avatar
thekohser
Majordomo
Posts: 13406
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:07 pm
Wikipedia User: Thekohser
Wikipedia Review Member: thekohser
Actual Name: Gregory Kohs
Location: United States
Contact:

Re: Biographies of murdered persons

Unread post by thekohser » Thu Sep 06, 2012 12:13 pm

Another not-surprising case of Wikipedia being used as a platform to be exploited by the editors, not as a service to readers. And of "policies and guidelines" not being executed in an evenhanded manner.

That said, I think there's something to be said (considering the history of newspaper and television content, right on back to the Books of Judges and Joshua in the Bible) that "the people" are drawn to stories of the gruesome, so it's not altogether shameful that Wikipedia can't resist either.
"...making nonsensical connections and culminating in feigned surprise, since 2006..."

dogbiscuit
Retired
Posts: 2723
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 11:32 pm
Wikipedia User: tiucsibgod

Re: Biographies of murdered persons

Unread post by dogbiscuit » Thu Sep 06, 2012 1:33 pm

thekohser wrote:That said, I think there's something to be said (considering the history of newspaper and television content, right on back to the Books of Judges and Joshua in the Bible) that "the people" are drawn to stories of the gruesome, so it's not altogether shameful that Wikipedia can't resist either.
...and is thus the excuse for taking a low or no moral standpoint.

I think this is all very Star Trek - the premise in TNG is that the human condition is to strive to be better people. This, of course, is shown to be fiction.
Time for a new signature.

User avatar
Tarc
Habitué
Posts: 1568
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 1:31 am
Wikipedia User: Tarc

Re: Biographies of murdered persons

Unread post by Tarc » Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:03 pm

I find murder of...articles to be the most irritating type of AfD to participate in. All the keepers do is tally up the newspaper articles and claim the magic "significant coverage in reliable sources" threshold to be reached.

Oh, and try to get a murder article deleted from a battleground topic? Good luck, brother.

* Nava Applebaum (T-H-L) - Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Nava Applebaum (T-H-L)
"The world needs bad men. We keep the other bad men from the door."

User avatar
Hersch
Retired
Posts: 3719
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 12:09 am
Wikipedia User: Herschelkrustofsky
Wikipedia Review Member: Herschelkrustofsky

Re: Biographies of murdered persons

Unread post by Hersch » Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:10 pm

Peter Damian wrote:See e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Ian_Tomlinson . Given the public interest issue, i.e. presumed police brutality, why is there all this other stuff on there that is unrelated to the issue of interest?
:iknowiknow: Because SlimVirgin wrote the article?
“If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing.”
Malcolm X


User avatar
Randy from Boise
Been Around Forever
Posts: 12080
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 2:32 am
Wikipedia User: Carrite
Wikipedia Review Member: Timbo
Actual Name: Tim Davenport
Nom de plume: T. Chandler
Location: Boise, Idaho

Re: Biographies of murdered persons

Unread post by Randy from Boise » Thu Sep 06, 2012 4:42 pm

thekohser wrote:Another not-surprising case of Wikipedia being used as a platform to be exploited by the editors, not as a service to readers. And of "policies and guidelines" not being executed in an evenhanded manner.

That said, I think there's something to be said (considering the history of newspaper and television content, right on back to the Books of Judges and Joshua in the Bible) that "the people" are drawn to stories of the gruesome, so it's not altogether shameful that Wikipedia can't resist either.
The old TV adage is "If It Bleeds, It Leads."

I wish the energy dedicated to converting minor news matters at WP was channeled elsewhere, towards more productive things. Not much chance of that happening, though... People will work on what they want to work on, after all, and flitting around current newspaper stories on the web to produce pages that generate lots of ephemeral page views is what stokes some people's fire, apparently.

I don't see this propensity as a minor failing of WP, just a minor annoyance.

RfB

User avatar
thekohser
Majordomo
Posts: 13406
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:07 pm
Wikipedia User: Thekohser
Wikipedia Review Member: thekohser
Actual Name: Gregory Kohs
Location: United States
Contact:

Re: Biographies of murdered persons

Unread post by thekohser » Thu Sep 06, 2012 5:47 pm

Randy from Boise wrote:People will work on what they want to work on, after all, and flitting around current newspaper stories on the web to produce pages that generate lots of ephemeral page views is what stokes some people's fire, apparently.
The exception, of course, being a biographical article about Carolyn Doran. People are not allowed to work on that.
"...making nonsensical connections and culminating in feigned surprise, since 2006..."

User avatar
DanMurphy
Habitué
Posts: 3136
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2012 11:58 pm
Wikipedia User: Dan Murphy
Wikipedia Review Member: DanMurphy

Re: Biographies of murdered persons

Unread post by DanMurphy » Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:12 pm

Looking to spice up the tragic death of a young woman (hit by a speeding car) for your encyclopediaing? You can call it the Lee Zeitouni affair. (It's no Lavon affair -- a terrible article on a worthy topic).

User avatar
Vigilant
Sonny, I've got a whole theme park full of red delights for you.
Posts: 31484
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2012 8:16 pm
Wikipedia User: Vigilant
Wikipedia Review Member: Vigilant

Re: Biographies of murdered persons

Unread post by Vigilant » Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:24 pm

thekohser wrote:
Randy from Boise wrote:People will work on what they want to work on, after all, and flitting around current newspaper stories on the web to produce pages that generate lots of ephemeral page views is what stokes some people's fire, apparently.
The exception, of course, being a biographical article about Carolyn Doran. People are not allowed to work on that.
Or Jeff Merkey
Hello, John. John, hello. You're the one soul I would come up here to collect myself.

User avatar
Tarc
Habitué
Posts: 1568
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 1:31 am
Wikipedia User: Tarc

Re: Biographies of murdered persons

Unread post by Tarc » Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:48 pm

I'm honestly quite surprised that the photographs at the center of the Nikki Catsouras photographs controversy (T-H-L) are not actually in the article. Not that I think they should be, but rather it seems like the sort of thing that the fair-use crowd would fight for.

Note: I strongly suggest you do not google for the images themselves.
"The world needs bad men. We keep the other bad men from the door."

User avatar
HRIP7
Denizen
Posts: 6953
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 2:05 am
Wikipedia User: Jayen466
Wikipedia Review Member: HRIP7
Actual Name: Andreas Kolbe
Location: UK

Re: Biographies of murdered persons

Unread post by HRIP7 » Fri Sep 07, 2012 3:46 am

Tarc wrote:I'm honestly quite surprised that the photographs at the center of the Nikki Catsouras photographs controversy (T-H-L) are not actually in the article. Not that I think they should be, but rather it seems like the sort of thing that the fair-use crowd would fight for.

Note: I strongly suggest you do not google for the images themselves.
I recall there was a big controversy at the time about providing external links to the images. In the end, consensus was against it.

User avatar
piku
Critic
Posts: 121
Joined: Fri May 25, 2012 3:30 pm
Wikipedia User: Pieter Kuiper
Wikipedia Review Member: pietkuip

Re: Biographies of murdered persons

Unread post by piku » Fri Sep 07, 2012 2:54 pm

Peter Damian wrote:2. Sometimes the Wikipedia ghouls find pictures of the deceased. See e.g. this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Jill-Lyn_Euto . Have the relatives consented to this? Were they consulted? Sometimes the photos were issued by the police for identifying missing persons. Not for the purposes of illustrating Wikipedia.
Not to mention the copyright of the photographers. Death of Lisa McPherson (T-H-L) is illustrated with a photo credited to her estate.

I made a deletion request http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commo ... 11-big.jpg - Cirt provided the OTRS ticket for photos of this adherent of scientology. But it seems that permissions were given by others than the photographers.

EricBarbour
 
Posts: 10891
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 11:32 pm
Location: hell

Re: Biographies of murdered persons

Unread post by EricBarbour » Fri Sep 07, 2012 9:13 pm

piku wrote:I made a deletion request http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commo ... 11-big.jpg
That's a top-grade example of Cirt doing his obsessive-compulsive act. He's the "best"/worst.
If anyone ever successfully sues the WMF, it will probably be as a result of the activities of Cirt, or someone similar.

User avatar
The Joy
Habitué
Posts: 2606
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 6:20 am
Wikipedia Review Member: The Joy

Re: Biographies of murdered persons

Unread post by The Joy » Thu Sep 13, 2012 6:14 am

Tarc wrote:I'm honestly quite surprised that the photographs at the center of the Nikki Catsouras photographs controversy (T-H-L) are not actually in the article. Not that I think they should be, but rather it seems like the sort of thing that the fair-use crowd would fight for.

Note: I strongly suggest you do not google for the images themselves.
An IP tried to get links to the photos on the article, but he was overruled by the consensus at the time on moral grounds.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Nikki ... rsy#Photos
"In the long run, volunteers are the most expensive workers you'll ever have." -Red Green

"Is it your thesis that my avatar in this MMPONWMG was mugged?" -Moulton

User avatar
Peter Damian
Habitué
Posts: 4201
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 8:14 pm
Wikipedia User: Peter Damian
Wikipedia Review Member: Peter Damian
Location: London
Contact:

Re: Biographies of murdered persons

Unread post by Peter Damian » Tue Oct 16, 2012 1:35 pm

Another sick article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_of_Amanda_Todd currently under discussion.

The delete votes are even more insensitive than the keeps.
Delete Delete this page, this girl has had no significant impact on the world and therefore doesn't deserve her on wikipedia page. I mean, everyone dies every day, so why is she so special? 75.90.125.189 (talk) 02:39, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
οὐκ ἀγαθὸν πολυκοιρανίη: εἷς κοίρανος ἔστω

User avatar
DanMurphy
Habitué
Posts: 3136
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2012 11:58 pm
Wikipedia User: Dan Murphy
Wikipedia Review Member: DanMurphy

Re: Biographies of murdered persons

Unread post by DanMurphy » Tue Oct 16, 2012 1:47 pm

The place is repulsive. What they need is a simple directive. "No encyclopedia articles written about 'events' until at minimum one year later." This they will never do.

User avatar
Sweet Revenge
Gregarious
Posts: 538
Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2012 5:42 pm

Re: Biographies of murdered persons

Unread post by Sweet Revenge » Tue Oct 16, 2012 2:05 pm

And see our little friend Activism1234 (since renamed hisself after he got slammed around ANI for his username) voting "Strong keep". Why? Because he wants to have precedent for lengthy articles on every single Israeli child killed by Palestinians.
Strong keep - for reasons above, plus this article is properly referenced and the media coverage on this topic is extensive. There are similar articles on suicides, this is a notable one. --Jethro B (T-C-L) 00:49, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

User avatar
lilburne
Habitué
Posts: 4446
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 6:18 pm
Wikipedia User: Nastytroll
Wikipedia Review Member: Lilburne

Re: Biographies of murdered persons

Unread post by lilburne » Tue Oct 16, 2012 3:07 pm

They have been inserting little memes in everybody's mind
So Google's shills can shriek there whenever they're inclined

EricBarbour
 
Posts: 10891
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 11:32 pm
Location: hell

Re: Biographies of murdered persons

Unread post by EricBarbour » Tue Oct 16, 2012 8:26 pm

I'll bet you guys didn't know that Amanda's Facebook bully has a Wikipedia account.

He was "doxed" by Anonymous yesterday. I'll let you find that yourselves. Bonus: he was a Facebook employee.

dogbiscuit
Retired
Posts: 2723
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 11:32 pm
Wikipedia User: tiucsibgod

Re: Biographies of murdered persons

Unread post by dogbiscuit » Tue Oct 16, 2012 11:19 pm

The group claims that he is a 32-year-old from British Columbia, but MailOnline has chosen not to identify him for legal reasons.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z29VUbqBAF
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
Ahem... the Google search suggests that the MailOnline had originally chosen to name him.("XXXXXX a 30 year old former Facebook employee").
Time for a new signature.

User avatar
DanMurphy
Habitué
Posts: 3136
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2012 11:58 pm
Wikipedia User: Dan Murphy
Wikipedia Review Member: DanMurphy

Re: Biographies of murdered persons

Unread post by DanMurphy » Tue Oct 16, 2012 11:29 pm

If he's that old it's rather shocking. The account made less than 10 visible edits to Wikipedia. The one I looked at was to change the name of a mayor in a Canadian town I'd never heard of to "Adolf Hitler." I would have assumed a young teenage boy.

User avatar
thekohser
Majordomo
Posts: 13406
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:07 pm
Wikipedia User: Thekohser
Wikipedia Review Member: thekohser
Actual Name: Gregory Kohs
Location: United States
Contact:

Re: Biographies of murdered persons

Unread post by thekohser » Thu Oct 18, 2012 12:21 pm

EricBarbour wrote:I'll bet you guys didn't know that Amanda's Facebook bully has a Wikipedia account.

He was "doxed" by Anonymous yesterday. I'll let you find that yourselves. Bonus: he was a Facebook employee.
How is his employment by Facebook proven? Reason I ask...
Soon after the publication of information from Anonymous, its validity began to crumble. On Monday afternoon — a day before most outlets picked up the story about Maxson — CKNW in Vancouver reported that the address Anonymous had published was not Maxson’s. The woman who lived there had called the police, and asked that people stop sending her threats.

Seeing the crack in Anonymous’s case, we got in touch with Facebook to find out if Kody Maxson had ever worked for the social network. As suspected, he hadn’t.

“This is absolutely NOT true,” a Facebook spokeswoman told Digital Trends via email this morning. “No individual with that name works or has ever worked at Facebook.” During a follow-up phone conversation, she exclaimed that Facebook “doesn’t even have an office in British Columbia,” and couldn’t understand why anyone would take the Anonymous dox seriously. She thanked us for getting in touch — nobody else, it seems, tried to sort out this particular detail.

So now we knew both Maxson’s alleged address and employment information were incorrect. We called the phone number provided in the Pastebin doc. It didn’t work — shocker.
"...making nonsensical connections and culminating in feigned surprise, since 2006..."

User avatar
Tarc
Habitué
Posts: 1568
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 1:31 am
Wikipedia User: Tarc

Re: Biographies of murdered persons

Unread post by Tarc » Thu Oct 18, 2012 4:32 pm

thekohser wrote:
EricBarbour wrote:I'll bet you guys didn't know that Amanda's Facebook bully has a Wikipedia account.

He was "doxed" by Anonymous yesterday. I'll let you find that yourselves. Bonus: he was a Facebook employee.
How is his employment by Facebook proven? Reason I ask...
Soon after the publication of information from Anonymous, its validity began to crumble. On Monday afternoon — a day before most outlets picked up the story about Maxson — CKNW in Vancouver reported that the address Anonymous had published was not Maxson’s. The woman who lived there had called the police, and asked that people stop sending her threats.

Seeing the crack in Anonymous’s case, we got in touch with Facebook to find out if Kody Maxson had ever worked for the social network. As suspected, he hadn’t.

“This is absolutely NOT true,” a Facebook spokeswoman told Digital Trends via email this morning. “No individual with that name works or has ever worked at Facebook.” During a follow-up phone conversation, she exclaimed that Facebook “doesn’t even have an office in British Columbia,” and couldn’t understand why anyone would take the Anonymous dox seriously. She thanked us for getting in touch — nobody else, it seems, tried to sort out this particular detail.

So now we knew both Maxson’s alleged address and employment information were incorrect. We called the phone number provided in the Pastebin doc. It didn’t work — shocker.
A think a few lightbulbs out are finally flickering on in realization that the "Anonymous" angle is not quite what it was claimed to be.
"The world needs bad men. We keep the other bad men from the door."

dogbiscuit
Retired
Posts: 2723
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 11:32 pm
Wikipedia User: tiucsibgod

Re: Biographies of murdered persons

Unread post by dogbiscuit » Thu Oct 18, 2012 4:36 pm

Tarc wrote: A think a few lightbulbs out are finally flickering on in realization that the "Anonymous" angle is not quite what it was claimed to be.
But it's crowd-sourced, it must be right - all those experts are wrong. Stupid woman doesn't know what goes on in her own house.
Time for a new signature.

User avatar
DanMurphy
Habitué
Posts: 3136
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2012 11:58 pm
Wikipedia User: Dan Murphy
Wikipedia Review Member: DanMurphy

Re: Biographies of murdered persons

Unread post by DanMurphy » Thu Oct 18, 2012 5:58 pm

dogbiscuit wrote:
Tarc wrote: A think a few lightbulbs out are finally flickering on in realization that the "Anonymous" angle is not quite what it was claimed to be.
But it's crowd-sourced, it must be right - all those experts are wrong. Stupid woman doesn't know what goes on in her own house.
Notice that the traditional journalist, working carefully and methodically gets it right (the reddit creepshot guy). The crowd-sourcers' get it wrong. (Again, just looking at the wikipedia account it smells like a 13-year-old boy).

EricBarbour
 
Posts: 10891
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 11:32 pm
Location: hell

Re: Biographies of murdered persons

Unread post by EricBarbour » Thu Oct 18, 2012 9:34 pm

Again, you have to read the book We Are Anonymous so you can get the full effect. Anon has always been semi-competent
to incompetent, they have always been dishonest, they have repeatedly published "information" that they knew to be wrong, but
covered it up and proceeded as if it were correct.

I would not be surprised if "Maxson" or whatever, the guy who harassed Amanda Todd on Facebook, turned out to actually
work for Facebook, possibly as a subcontractor or volunteer. And Facebook is lying about his connection to them. Funny, how
both corporations, and anti-corporate protest groups, commonly use similar dishonest methods to achieve their goals.

User avatar
Tarc
Habitué
Posts: 1568
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 1:31 am
Wikipedia User: Tarc

Re: Biographies of murdered persons

Unread post by Tarc » Fri Oct 19, 2012 12:56 pm

EricBarbour wrote:Again, you have to read the book We Are Anonymous so you can get the full effect. Anon has always been semi-competent
to incompetent, they have always been dishonest, they have repeatedly published "information" that they knew to be wrong, but
covered it up and proceeded as if it were correct.

I would not be surprised if "Maxson" or whatever, the guy who harassed Amanda Todd on Facebook, turned out to actually
work for Facebook, possibly as a subcontractor or volunteer. And Facebook is lying about his connection to them. Funny, how
both corporations, and anti-corporate protest groups, commonly use similar dishonest methods to achieve their goals.
Eric, the way you speak about any of this reminds me of the way congressmen in the 90's spoke of the "Information Superhighway". Please...stop.
"The world needs bad men. We keep the other bad men from the door."

Post Reply