Fram recommended for desyop at ANI

Kumioko · Unread post by **Kumioko** » Tue Mar 06, 2018 8:36 pm

I just noticed that Jaguar (T-C-L) submitted an ANI request to desysop Fram (T-C-L). I'm glad to see it and he brought up a lot of good points. Not surprisingly, it was closed as out of process because, the community only has the authority to promote people to admin, not demote them. For that, they must go to Arbcom, who are all admins and are unlikely to do anything, especially since Fram has probably submitted more winning arbcom cases than anyone. Jaguar also seems to have "retired" from editing. It's hard to say if they will actually stick with that since many have a reputation for leaving and coming back, myself included, but Fram has a long history of pushing editors out, forcing them to quit, banning them, running them through the arbcom gauntlet, etc.

I myself hope that someone goes through the motions of submitting it to the actual arbcom for review but even if they did, it would probably be denied on sight and even if they accepted it they would find some way to weasel out of banning him.

mynameisnotdave · Unread post by **mynameisnotdave** » Tue Mar 06, 2018 8:55 pm

Kumioko wrote:I just noticed that Jaguar (T-C-L) submitted an ANI request to desysop Fram (T-C-L). I'm glad to see it and he brought up a lot of good points. Not surprisingly, it was closed as out of process because, the community only has the authority to promote people to admin, not demote them. For that, they must go to Arbcom, who are all admins and are unlikely to do anything, especially since Fram has probably submitted more winning arbcom cases than anyone. Jaguar also seems to have "retired" from editing. It's hard to say if they will actually stick with that since many have a reputation for leaving and coming back, myself included, but Fram has a long history of pushing editors out, forcing them to quit, banning them, running them through the arbcom gauntlet, etc.

I myself hope that someone goes through the motions of submitting it to the actual arbcom for review but even if they did, it would probably be denied on sight and even if they accepted it they would find some way to weasel out of banning him.

Correction: it's been re-opened, but Jaguar is receiving a lot of stick for it. The reason why it was re-opened is due to IAR -- if there is consensus for a desysop, then ArbCom would be mad not to accept it.

Jaguar · Unread post by **Jaguar** » Tue Mar 06, 2018 8:56 pm

I never wanted to return to Wikipedia. My motivation was at an all time low and I truly felt uplifted when I stopped editing. I felt like a fool to come back to the cultists, but when I saw Fram was being his usual obnoxious self I couldn't just sit there that time. By all means they need to revoke his admin privileges. He doesn't have the temperament to keep them. It's sad that his behaviour is synonymous with that of Wikipedia itself.

I don't know what to do. The sensible thing would be to never edit again, which I'll gladly do. Unlike most of the cultists I've broken free from my addiction and saw how horribly masochist the place is. Why was the desysop request met with such vitriol? I can't say I'm surprised, but it's still baffling.

mynameisnotdave · Unread post by **mynameisnotdave** » Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:00 pm

Jaguar wrote:I never wanted to return to Wikipedia. My motivation was at an all time low and I truly felt uplifted when I stopped editing. I felt like a fool to come back to the cultists, but when I saw Fram was being his usual obnoxious self I couldn't just sit there that time. By all means they need to revoke his admin privileges. He doesn't have the temperament to keep them. It's sad that his behaviour is synonymous with that of Wikipedia itself.

I don't know what to do. The sensible thing would be to never edit again, which I'll gladly do. Unlike most of the cultists I've broken free from my addiction and saw how horribly masochist the place is. Why was the desysop request met with such vitriol? I can't say I'm surprised, but it's still baffling.

As soon you have made it personal you have lost. That's why you're getting the crap thrown back at you. Not annoyed with you -- this is probably our first interaction with each other, but that's what it is.

Jaguar · Unread post by **Jaguar** » Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:10 pm

mynameisnotdave wrote: As soon you have made it personal you have lost. That's why you're getting the crap thrown back at you. Not annoyed with you -- this is probably our first interaction with each other, but that's what it is.

Thanks. Making it personal wasn't my intention, though perhaps I could have used better language when presenting those diffs. I don't have anything against Fram personally, in fact his behaviour has been quite parodic in the past sometimes I laughed at the disputes he got himself into.

I feel like I have nothing to lose. I made the decision to leave permanently last month, and I will genuinely leave Wikipedia alone. The reason why I left was more to do with RL matters—I really haven't had the energy to write articles with the same zeal that I had two years ago (though my disillusionment with Wikipedia is no secret). If I take this to ArbCom I run the risk of getting shot down again, but Jayron's support gave me hope. He was a former arb, no? If there is a chance that Fram can be desysopped, I'll take it.

mynameisnotdave · Unread post by **mynameisnotdave** » Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:26 pm

Jaguar wrote:
mynameisnotdave wrote: As soon you have made it personal you have lost. That's why you're getting the crap thrown back at you. Not annoyed with you -- this is probably our first interaction with each other, but that's what it is.
Thanks. Making it personal wasn't my intention, though perhaps I could have used better language when presenting those diffs. I don't have anything against Fram personally, in fact his behaviour has been quite parodic in the past sometimes I laughed at the disputes he got himself into.

I feel like I have nothing to lose. I made the decision to leave permanently last month, and I will genuinely leave Wikipedia alone. The reason why I left was more to do with RL matters—I really haven't had the energy to write articles with the same zeal that I had two years ago (though my disillusionment with Wikipedia is no secret). If I take this to ArbCom I run the risk of getting shot down again, but Jayron's support gave me hope. He was a former arb, no? If there is a chance that Fram can be desysopped, I'll take it.

Whatever floats your boat. The fact you have come out of retirement just to do this seems disingenuous, and that's already been stated to you by Black Kite, in a way. I would support a case, but I have said in the request against Dr. Blofeld and Ritchie -- it would probably be declined due to lack of past dispute resolution. I pointed to the fact that we could give Fram an informal warning of 'can you please consider how your behaviour is affecting other people' and then if he did not improve, it would be taken to ArbCom.

I don't think it is a good idea for you to come out of retirement just to do this. If you have thoughts of leaving, then remember that Fram is just a bloke on the internet and then hopefully leave it from there. I'm sure he's a lovely guy in real life, as is everyone else, but we somehow cope with only using 8% of our communication inventory (words only) -- wait, no, we don't cope

Someone else can deal with it. That may be my favourite phrase in my attempt for people to get out of stressful situations. But yeah, ask yourself whether you should just get on with your life (not trying to goad you, I'm being serious).

Kumioko · Unread post by **Kumioko** » Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:52 pm

mynameisnotdave wrote:
Kumioko wrote:I just noticed that Jaguar (T-C-L) submitted an ANI request to desysop Fram (T-C-L). I'm glad to see it and he brought up a lot of good points. Not surprisingly, it was closed as out of process because, the community only has the authority to promote people to admin, not demote them. For that, they must go to Arbcom, who are all admins and are unlikely to do anything, especially since Fram has probably submitted more winning arbcom cases than anyone. Jaguar also seems to have "retired" from editing. It's hard to say if they will actually stick with that since many have a reputation for leaving and coming back, myself included, but Fram has a long history of pushing editors out, forcing them to quit, banning them, running them through the arbcom gauntlet, etc.

I myself hope that someone goes through the motions of submitting it to the actual arbcom for review but even if they did, it would probably be denied on sight and even if they accepted it they would find some way to weasel out of banning him.
Correction: it's been re-opened, but Jaguar is receiving a lot of stick for it. The reason why it was re-opened is due to IAR -- if there is consensus for a desysop, then ArbCom would be mad not to accept it.

I think reopening it is the right decision and aside from my feelings that desysopping Fram is justified, here is why: Historically the community has been complaining about the inability to demote admins and RFC and suggestions to allow them to do it has failed. What should happen is that the community has the discussion and see if there is support. If there does seem to be support, then Arbcom should accept the case and review it or, preferably, act on the communities wishes. The community has the ability to promote admins and they should be allowed to demote them as well if they lose the confidence in the individual. To argue that the mob can ban a long term dedicated member of the community, but can't be trusted to demote an admin is complete nonsense. If the admins and the arbcom don't trust the community to desysop a bad admin, then they don't respect the community and any other decision that the community has decided to do, including bans.

Kumioko · Unread post by **Kumioko** » Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:55 pm

mynameisnotdave wrote:
Jaguar wrote:I never wanted to return to Wikipedia. My motivation was at an all time low and I truly felt uplifted when I stopped editing. I felt like a fool to come back to the cultists, but when I saw Fram was being his usual obnoxious self I couldn't just sit there that time. By all means they need to revoke his admin privileges. He doesn't have the temperament to keep them. It's sad that his behaviour is synonymous with that of Wikipedia itself.

I don't know what to do. The sensible thing would be to never edit again, which I'll gladly do. Unlike most of the cultists I've broken free from my addiction and saw how horribly masochist the place is. Why was the desysop request met with such vitriol? I can't say I'm surprised, but it's still baffling.
As soon you have made it personal you have lost. That's why you're getting the crap thrown back at you. Not annoyed with you -- this is probably our first interaction with each other, but that's what it is.

I kinda agree with this. It's easy to get interested in and start caring for a subject but one of the reasons that guys like Fram are so successful in the project is they do not care about it's success, they do not care about the community and they do not care about improving the encyclopedia. They care about manipulating the rules to get what they want. In Fram's case, I firmly believe Fram likes the debate itself. He likes to dig for evidence and the create the case of something and argue it. He doesn't do anything else accept that really, and unfortunately he is fairly good at it. I personally think they are a lawyer IRL, but it's hard to say.

Unread post by **Midsize Jake** » Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:04 pm

mynameisnotdave wrote:Whatever floats your boat. The fact you have come out of retirement just to do this seems disingenuous, and that's already been stated to you by Black Kite, in a way.

I suspect the more appropriate term there would be "a trifle vindictive." It's not "disingenuous" unless he comes back from retirement, tells everyone "I want to be a super-happy ultra-productive editor and spend all my time working on content!" and then concentrates solely on getting Mr. Fram's administrative privileges revoked.

In any event, vindictiveness (to any degree) is hardly something that established Wikipedia types are unfamiliar with, much less incapable of handling. The fact is, Mr. Jaguar managed to come up with a list of 50 diffs as evidence of Mr. Fram's unpleasant behavior, and Mr. Fram just shrugged it off, as if to say "yeah, any little pissant can come up with a list of 50 diffs showing my unpleasant behavior, who gives a shit?" And that's probably how they'll handle it, too.

For the record, here's a permalink to the AN/I thread in question. Personally, I'm just hoping that if there is an Arbcom case against Mr. Fram, it will finally resolve the question of whether or not he named himself after the company that makes oil filters, or simply came up with the term on his own.

Bezdomni · Unread post by **Bezdomni** » Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:04 pm

Kumioko, you forgot the h/t to the Crow and to supply the links.

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... =829107597

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia ... op_of_Fram

One of the diffs in the second (temporary) link above sent me down memory lane to read the entry on the Gendarmerie of Haiti (T-H-L) again.

And all that aggressive cursing reminds me of Cassianto & Joefromrandb. Isn't it part of ArbCom's remit to supervise as the children wash their mouths out with soap before returning to the Community smelling all fresh & clean? Maybe NYBrad will comment here on how ArbCom's got the best soap.

edit: I see Jake added the permanent link just above...

Kumioko · Unread post by **Kumioko** » Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:21 pm

I hope a lot of people comment about it including NYB but frankly I don't really put much stock in his opinions anymore since he advocated outing me to my employer to try to get me fired. I don't really have time for that sort of BS.

Jaguar · Unread post by **Jaguar** » Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:29 pm

It just got closed again. I don't know what to do. I really don't want to be there and don't feel obligated to file an Arbcom request (which I've never done before). But I've been contacted off-wiki by a couple of people thanking me for what I've done, so maybe I'm not alone. I can understand why people think it's annoying that I came out of retirement to take a stab at Fram but the truth is that no-one is more annoyed than I am because of the fact that I came back and subjected myself to one of the worst environments I've experienced online. And the truth is, I was inadvertently involved!

Damn. If I stay away (which I really want to do) I feel like I've wasted time, but if I go ahead and try to take it to arbcom... Will I be a fool to try and change the unchangeable?

Kumioko · Unread post by **Kumioko** » Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:38 pm

Jaguar wrote:It just got closed again. I don't know what to do. I really don't want to be there and don't feel obligated to file an Arbcom request (which I've never done before). But I've been contacted off-wiki by a couple of people thanking me for what I've done, so maybe I'm not alone. I can understand why people think it's annoying that I came out of retirement to take a stab at Fram but the truth is that no-one is more annoyed than I am because of the fact that I came back and subjected myself to one of the worst environments I've experienced online. And the truth is, I was inadvertently involved!

Damn. If I stay away (which I really want to do) I feel like I've wasted time, but if I go ahead and try to take it to arbcom... Will I be a fool to try and change the unchangeable?

I can suggest that you take what you have so far, recraft it with more content and in Arbcom style and submit it there. Search through this site and find the references to Fram for additional information. Look through his talk page archives, look through ANI and arbcom and his contributions. Look for anything that is negative against him but make sure it's valid and there is a lot out there. I would try to focus on the last 12 to 15 months but add in some older ones too to help show a longterm pattern of abuse. Try not to include stuff about me or anyone else that has been banned because they will "justify" his nasty attitude.

No rush, continue to build evidence, continue to reword and develop it and in a couple weeks to a month when you are done drafting it, resubmit. If you do plan to resubmit though, I highly recommend removing the retired template from your page. Even if you don't do any edits, it's not likely to help you win the case against Fram. Contrary to what some might think on wiki, Fram is not a positive editor, they are a drama magnet and all he cares about is the debate and seeing people go down!

Also, just FYI, if it is a well written proposal, even if it loses, it helps to document his problematic behavior making it easier for the next person to deal with him because you have already documented some of it. If Arbcom see's him enough times, it in itself shows a pattern of abuse and they will do something just to make it stop getting submitted.

Black Kite · Unread post by **Black Kite** » Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:23 pm

Midsize Jake wrote:
mynameisnotdave wrote:Whatever floats your boat. The fact you have come out of retirement just to do this seems disingenuous, and that's already been stated to you by Black Kite, in a way.
I suspect the more appropriate term there would be "a trifle vindictive." It's not "disingenuous" unless he comes back from retirement, tells everyone "I want to be a super-happy ultra-productive editor and spend all my time working on content!" and then concentrates solely on getting Mr. Fram's administrative privileges revoked.

Well, that's the point. Some of those "diffs" were simply false, or so wildly out of context that the effect was the same. For example, the Ymblanter one was linked to "I'm an admin, you are not. You may have your own stupid opinion". In reality the diff showed Fram paraphrasing Ymblanter's own quote ("Well, both communities felt confident enough to award me administrator privileges, something which I have not seen you to achieve with either of them. But, as I said, you are certainly entitled to have your opinion on the subject, even if it is completely uninformed and aggressive.") So it wasn't actually anything Fram said at all. There was the LavaBaron one (which Jaguar has now admitted was wrong), the "Fram vs Erik Moeller" one which was unsurprisingly closed as not worth anyone's time, Fram's absolutely correct de-listing of 4 "Good Articles" which weren't (why did you think that was worth listing?) , a "Misuse of tools by Fram" which was rejected at ANI and withdrawn by the filer ... do you see where I'm going with this?

No? Some more - the one titled "Please explain yourself more clearly, as I'm very close to taking this kind of editing to WP:ANI to get you blocked" was Fram - entirely correctly - telling an editor who appeared to think that sourcing was optional that he wouldn't block them himself (involved) but would go to ANI (the editor in question is now, unsurprisingly, indeffed as they carried on doing ... what Fram told them not to). Another one is an AfD (which was on a Gibraltar subject and inevitably blitzed by Prioryman and the rest of the Gibraltar rent-a-crowd) from six years ago on an article created by Dr Blofeld, which is really interesting given the current request at ArbCom brought by Fram regarding Dr.B. Actually, that's a really, really big coincidence, isn't it? Especially given Jaguar's "I've been contacted off-wiki by a couple of people thanking me for what I've done".

If you *genuinely* wanted to bring the topic of Fram's behaviour up (and I quite admit he can be difficult sometimes), throwing 29 pieces of shit at a wall and hoping one of them sticks is not the way to go about it, especially when a good percentage of them miss the wall completely. Lazy, disingenous *and* vindictive, IMO. Also, posting "if there's a chance Fram could be desysopped, I'll take it" here may not have been the brightest move ever.

Kumioko · Unread post by **Kumioko** » Wed Mar 07, 2018 1:00 am

I was banned from editing Wikipedia due to a couple editors taking comments and actions out of context to get what they wanted. I know quite well about how cherry picking statements out of context can be used against editors within Wikipedia's own policies.

Fram is, quite frankly a detriment to the Wikipedia community and he is personally responsible for losing countless editors and contributing to the toxic environment. The faster he is expelled from the community the better if you or anyone else wants Wikipedia to improve.

Anroth · Unread post by **Anroth** » Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:25 am

Black Kite wrote: If you *genuinely* wanted to bring the topic of Fram's behaviour up (and I quite admit he can be difficult sometimes), throwing 29 pieces of shit at a wall and hoping one of them sticks is not the way to go about it, especially when a good percentage of them miss the wall completely. Lazy, disingenous *and* vindictive, IMO. Also, posting "if there's a chance Fram could be desysopped, I'll take it" here may not have been the brightest move ever.

Well quite. And there was zero chance of that happening. Even the best (or worst depending on your opinion) case scenario with a full arbcom case would some sort of slap on the wrist for not being nice to everyone. They are not about to de-sysop Fram on *anything* that was posted there.

Kumioko · Unread post by **Kumioko** » Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:45 am

Anroth wrote:
Black Kite wrote: If you *genuinely* wanted to bring the topic of Fram's behaviour up (and I quite admit he can be difficult sometimes), throwing 29 pieces of shit at a wall and hoping one of them sticks is not the way to go about it, especially when a good percentage of them miss the wall completely. Lazy, disingenous *and* vindictive, IMO. Also, posting "if there's a chance Fram could be desysopped, I'll take it" here may not have been the brightest move ever.
Well quite. And there was zero chance of that happening. Even the best (or worst depending on your opinion) case scenario with a full arbcom case would some sort of slap on the wrist for not being nice to everyone. They are not about to de-sysop Fram on *anything* that was posted there.

You're right of course, it has to be written up there in Wikipedia terminology and in their forum. You're also very right that the case will be lost, however, it could also be a win in the sense that it will bring him before the arbcom and then if it happens again, it will be much easier to show a pattern of abuse.

Black Kite · Unread post by **Black Kite** » Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:04 pm

Kumioko wrote:
Anroth wrote:
Black Kite wrote: If you *genuinely* wanted to bring the topic of Fram's behaviour up (and I quite admit he can be difficult sometimes), throwing 29 pieces of shit at a wall and hoping one of them sticks is not the way to go about it, especially when a good percentage of them miss the wall completely. Lazy, disingenous *and* vindictive, IMO. Also, posting "if there's a chance Fram could be desysopped, I'll take it" here may not have been the brightest move ever.
Well quite. And there was zero chance of that happening. Even the best (or worst depending on your opinion) case scenario with a full arbcom case would some sort of slap on the wrist for not being nice to everyone. They are not about to de-sysop Fram on *anything* that was posted there.
You're right of course, it has to be written up there in Wikipedia terminology and in their forum. You're also very right that the case will be lost, however, it could also be a win in the sense that it will bring him before the arbcom and then if it happens again, it will be much easier to show a pattern of abuse.

Eh? It *was* written up exactly as such an ANI posting should be. If it had been 29 diffs which had shown a pattern of abuse then that's one thing. But most of them didn't. I also suspect that a case based on such flimsy evidence wouldn't actually be accepted.

mynameisnotdave · Unread post by **mynameisnotdave** » Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:42 pm

Well anyway, Fram has written up an apology (diff). We'll wait to see if this is a sorry makes action, or it becomes Joefromrandb version two.

I accept the apology nonetheless.

Kumioko · Unread post by **Kumioko** » Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:06 pm

mynameisnotdave wrote:Well anyway, Fram has written up an apology (diff). We'll wait to see if this is a sorry makes action, or it becomes Joefromrandb version two.

I accept the apology nonetheless.

Fram plays the political game on EnWP pretty well, I can see right though his apology for what it is. He knows there was some valid complaints within the noise and is mitigating that. His apology isn't sincere, it's just being done to soothe some souls in the chance that someone does take the time to go to Arbcom or continue to compile evidence against him. He can come back later and say he apologized after some self reflection and use that to take some of the heat off. Regardless though, there isn't an ounce of sincerity in it.

Jaguar · Unread post by **Jaguar** » Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:44 pm

I don't know what to make of it. Maybe he realised there was an actual chance of him being desysoped and it hit home hard. He's pissed a lot of people off over the years but still, I've never seen him apologise before. Is it a facade or a glimmer of hope?

Kumioko · Unread post by **Kumioko** » Wed Mar 07, 2018 11:50 pm

Yeah I think he knew that it wasn't desysop worthy but as I stated above there was enough there to start casting some doubts on his competency and mark it as a way point in a future documentation of a pattern of abuse. So for him, it's better to eat a little crow so he can use it later. Much as I hate the guy, they are a strategic thinker and expert debater and the things they do generally are like chess moves, setting up pieces for future moves and countermoves. They way Fram participates in the Wikipedia community is very much MMORPGish. It's a game to him and manipulating the community and Wikipedia policy is how he plays the game. In many ways, Fram is doing a better job of destroying Wikipedia than most of us, he is doing it as an admin and from within, using their own rules to eliminate the editors with the highest edit counts and the most dedication to the project (such as myself, Magioladits, Rich F, etc.).

Ming · Unread post by **Ming** » Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:20 am

Casting doubt on Fram's competency isn't going to happen. He makes mistakes, and they get straightened out, but a great deal of the issue around him is that he's a stickler in areas where a lot of people wish he would be sloppier. The more actionable issue is that he's both abrasive and prickly.

Kumioko · Unread post by **Kumioko** » Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:59 am

Ming wrote:Casting doubt on Fram's competency isn't going to happen. He makes mistakes, and they get straightened out, but a great deal of the issue around him is that he's a stickler in areas where a lot of people wish he would be sloppier. The more actionable issue is that he's both abrasive and prickly.

Not at once, no, but as with many others on Wikipedia his confidence can be eroded, he can be goaded and gauled and eventually enough of those prickly and abrasive incidents will add up. Don't think of it as a single incident, it will take time.

Poetlister · Unread post by **Poetlister** » Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:00 pm

The issue isn't his own confidence. It's the trust that others have in him. Arbcom and the other powers that be have to assume that by and large the admins are dependable people so at the end of the day they don't like undependable ones. Some admins are powerful enough to get away with almost anything, but I doubt that Fram is one of them.

Kumioko · Unread post by **Kumioko** » Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:02 pm

Poetlister wrote:The issue isn't his own confidence. It's the trust that others have in him. Arbcom and the other powers that be have to assume that by and large the admins are dependable people so at the end of the day they don't like undependable ones. Some admins are powerful enough to get away with almost anything, but I doubt that Fram is one of them.

I'll be honest I don't even think Fram is one of those people who would stick around if they started getting a lot of heat. I think they would just retire and leave because they have become so accustomed to getting away with whatever they want it wouldn't be fun for them anymore.

MjolnirPants · Unread post by **MjolnirPants** » Fri Mar 09, 2018 12:23 am

I just had a run-in with Fram and the outpouring of support via email was a little overwhelming... I'm used to getting emailed a lot, but today my phone was just beeping at me non stop. I don't know why all of them emailed me (most of the emails were words that should have been said on wiki), but in some cases, it was clear that they either didn't want to feed the drama (i.e. they've given up on fixing it) or they were afraid their support would earn them a black mark of some sort.

I don't know what everyone's problem is with Fram, but I get the impression it's a different incident for everyone. That... Probably says something.

Kumioko · Unread post by **Kumioko** » Fri Mar 09, 2018 12:47 am

MjolnirPants wrote:I just had a run-in with Fram and the outpouring of support via email was a little overwhelming... I'm used to getting emailed a lot, but today my phone was just beeping at me non stop. I don't know why all of them emailed me (most of the emails were words that should have been said on wiki), but in some cases, it was clear that they either didn't want to feed the drama (i.e. they've given up on fixing it) or they were afraid their support would earn them a black mark of some sort.

I don't know what everyone's problem is with Fram, but I get the impression it's a different incident for everyone. That... Probably says something.

Yep, it was the same with me when I got banned. A lot of people didn't agree but there was a large amount that feared retaliation so they just kept quite. Part of me felt good about the emails but it was also a little frustrating that only the bad admins and editors can voice their opinions on Wiki without fear and the others are just to weak to do anything about it.

MjolnirPants · Unread post by **MjolnirPants** » Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:25 am

Kumioko wrote:
MjolnirPants wrote:I just had a run-in with Fram and the outpouring of support via email was a little overwhelming... I'm used to getting emailed a lot, but today my phone was just beeping at me non stop. I don't know why all of them emailed me (most of the emails were words that should have been said on wiki), but in some cases, it was clear that they either didn't want to feed the drama (i.e. they've given up on fixing it) or they were afraid their support would earn them a black mark of some sort.

I don't know what everyone's problem is with Fram, but I get the impression it's a different incident for everyone. That... Probably says something.
Yep, it was the same with me when I got banned. A lot of people didn't agree but there was a large amount that feared retaliation so they just kept quite. Part of me felt good about the emails but it was also a little frustrating that only the bad admins and editors can voice their opinions on Wiki without fear and the others are just to weak to do anything about it.

That's why WP:DGAF ought to be expanded to include the "stop worrying about consequences" variation, and then made into a policy. I'm a tree-hugging, bleeding heart, card-carrying liberal who actually owns an SJW shirt with the punisher logo on it, and I'm currently the one of the most hated editors among my "fellow" liberals because I dared to suggest that maybe we should write our Trump articles (and to be clear: I hate the racist shitbird and would laugh if some sharpshooter canoed his head) from the point of view of "this is what Trump's done and said" instead of "this is what Trump's done and said that's racist". And I'm not exaggerating about the hate, either.

Damn, but I do love that smiley...
And I'm probably mediocre at best when it comes to the ability to truly not give a fuck. So I don't know what everyone else's excuses are.

Compared to that, speaking out against an admin doing a bad job ought to be the easiest thing in the world. I mean, those discussions always go one of three ways: Obvious support, obvious opposition, or holy-fucking-shit-we've-written-more-about-this-than-we've-written-about-US-politics-and-we-still-haven't-found-a-consensus. That's because they have momentum. So all it would take is just a few people who "don't want to get involved" to say something that the rest of them can agree with or expound on, and suddenly there's a flood of people all expressing their opinions.

Alex Shih · Unread post by **Alex Shih** » Fri Mar 09, 2018 3:01 am

Welcome, MjolnirPants!

MjolnirPants · Unread post by **MjolnirPants** » Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:29 am

Alex Shih wrote:Welcome, MjolnirPants!

Speaking of admins doing a bad job...

I'm kidding, of course.

Apologies for confusing you with Anarchyte (by suggesting you were new to the bit) at ANI a week or two ago, by the way. I was on a lot of medicine and said a lot of stupid things that weekend. tbh, I don't remember if I already apologized or not, but I'm too lazy to check so...

Alex Shih · Unread post by **Alex Shih** » Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:17 am

MjolnirPants wrote:
Alex Shih wrote:Welcome, MjolnirPants!
Speaking of admins doing a bad job...

I'm kidding, of course.

Apologies for confusing you with Anarchyte (by suggesting you were new to the bit) at ANI a week or two ago, by the way. I was on a lot of medicine and said a lot of stupid things that weekend. tbh, I don't remember if I already apologized or not, but I'm too lazy to check so...

I had to check to see what you were talking about. About the tendentious editing account, I enjoy not taking myself seriously so I enjoyed your mop-fu comment. I don't mind being confused with Anarchyte anyway

MjolnirPants · Unread post by **MjolnirPants** » Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:00 pm

Alex Shih wrote:I don't mind being confused with Anarchyte anyway

I wouldn't mind it, either, to be honest. He was the other half of one of the longest collaborations I've had on a single article, and was a joy to work with.

mynameisnotdave · Unread post by **mynameisnotdave** » Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:02 pm

Cleanup in aisle thread.

Unread post by **tarantino** » Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:18 pm

mynameisnotdave wrote:Cleanup in aisle thread.

Done. You wikipedians should take your off-topic bickering back to wikipedia.

mynameisnotdave · Unread post by **mynameisnotdave** » Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:23 pm

tarantino wrote:
mynameisnotdave wrote:Cleanup in aisle thread.
Done. You wikipedians should take your off-topic bickering back to wikipedia.

Cheers, milk and biscuits mod.

MjolnirPants · Unread post by **MjolnirPants** » Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:56 pm

For the record, and to anyone who actually cares: My run-in with Fram ended amicably enough. But they managed to give me a bad impression of themselves. As I said in reply to one of the more understandable emails I got; his comments went back and forth between reading as reasonable comments and reading as the rantings of someone who was about to explode in self-righteous indignation. I'm fairly convinced that were it not for the recent attempt to take his mop away at ANI and the almost overwhelming support there, Fram would have tried to invoke the bit to win the discussion.

As it was, several others who took Fram's 'side' made good points, so I gave a little in the end. But the most disappointing thing about that whole situation was that, even though I'd clearly hinted to all involved that there was a way to turn that discussion into an actual improvement to the site, nobody gave a flying fuck. Everybody was too interested in bickering over the legality (in both a literal and a WP policy sense) of two edits of mine. Nobody aligned against me was even interested enough in improving the project to remove the (non-article) content in question, even though I'd stated at least twice that I wouldn't revert anyone who did, and ended up doing it myself in the end.

So yeah, a whole ANI thread's worth of bickering, and it was the guy who'd supposedly broken the law and WP policy who was the only one showing an interest in fixing or improving anything. Considering that the guy in question was me, and I have a fairly low opinion of my own earnestness, industriousness and usefulness to a project like WP, that reflect pretty badly upon the rest of the involved parties.

lonza leggiera · Unread post by **lonza leggiera** » Sat Mar 10, 2018 12:46 pm

MjolnirPants wrote:For the record, and to anyone who actually cares: My run-in with Fram ended amicably enough. But they managed to give me a bad impression of themselves. As I said in reply to one of the more understandable emails I got; his comments went back and forth between reading as reasonable comments and reading as the rantings of someone who was about to explode in self-righteous indignation. I'm fairly convinced that were it not for the recent attempt to take his mop away at ANI and the almost overwhelming support there, Fram would have tried to invoke the bit to win the discussion.

As it was, several others who took Fram's 'side' made good points, so I gave a little in the end. But the most disappointing thing about that whole situation was that, even though I'd clearly hinted to all involved that there was a way to turn that discussion into an actual improvement to the site, nobody gave a flying fuck. Everybody was too interested in bickering over the legality (in both a literal and a WP policy sense) of two edits of mine. Nobody aligned against me was even interested enough in improving the project to remove the (non-article) content in question, even though I'd stated at least twice that I wouldn't revert anyone who did, and ended up doing it myself in the end.

So yeah, a whole ANI thread's worth of bickering, and it was the guy who'd supposedly broken the law and WP policy who was the only one showing an interest in fixing or improving anything. Considering that the guy in question was me, and I have a fairly low opinion of my own earnestness, industriousness and usefulness to a project like WP, that reflect pretty badly upon the rest of the involved parties.

For the curious, I presume this and this are parts of the said run-in.

MjolnirPants · Unread post by **MjolnirPants** » Sun Mar 11, 2018 3:37 am

lonza leggiera wrote:For the curious, I presume this and this are parts of the said run-in.

Yup. Here's a permalink to where most of it went down. There were a few trailing comments spread around various user pages, but nothing too important. I will say that Fram thanked me for the edit that finally removed the link, which was nice.