James Heilman removed from WMF board

[thekohser]

It is me, or has the amount of posting to Jimmy's Wikipedia user talk page dried up a bit? That would be the first sign if the community in general were turning away from him. Or does the volume of posting there come and go in waves?

We could apply for a WMF grant to study this, you know.

[Anthonyhcole]

It is me, or has the amount of posting to Jimmy's Wikipedia user talk page dried up a bit? That would be the first sign if the community in general were turning away from him. Or does the volume of posting there come and go in waves? [...] I said at one point (in a case that arose from his user talk page) that his user talk page is really not fit for purpose, and distracts from the proper venues that should be used at Wikipedia.

I spent five years trying to engage with the man there and have given up. As you imply, he really is worse than useless. He's an opportunity cost.

FWIW, some former (and I guess present) arbs have long been uncomfortable with Jimmy's 'role', if you knew where to look and what to look for.

Diffs? Arbs are the nearest thing we have to en.Wikipedia community leaders. (I know that's not their role but until en.Wikipedia actually organises politically they're the nearest we've got. They have or have had the proven respect of a significant number of volunteers.) An arb asking Jimmy to resign from the board and stop calling himself "spokesperson for the community" would at least be heard, if not heeded.

[Vigilant]

It is me, or has the amount of posting to Jimmy's Wikipedia user talk page dried up a bit? That would be the first sign if the community in general were turning away from him. Or does the volume of posting there come and go in waves? [...] I said at one point (in a case that arose from his user talk page) that his user talk page is really not fit for purpose, and distracts from the proper venues that should be used at Wikipedia.

I spent five years trying to engage with the man there and have given up. As you imply, he really is worse than useless. He's an opportunity cost.

FWIW, some former (and I guess present) arbs have long been uncomfortable with Jimmy's 'role', if you knew where to look and what to look for.

Diffs? Arbs are the nearest thing we have to en.Wikipedia community leaders. (I know that's not their role but until en.Wikipedia actually organises politically they're the nearest we've got. They have or have had the proven respect of a significant number of volunteers.) An arb asking Jimmy to resign from the board and stop calling himself "spokesperson for the community" would at least be heard, if not heeded.

I think he'd be heard the same way an AGM-88 hears radar.

[Anthonyhcole]

It is me, or has the amount of posting to Jimmy's Wikipedia user talk page dried up a bit? That would be the first sign if the community in general were turning away from him. Or does the volume of posting there come and go in waves? [...] I said at one point (in a case that arose from his user talk page) that his user talk page is really not fit for purpose, and distracts from the proper venues that should be used at Wikipedia.

I spent five years trying to engage with the man there and have given up. As you imply, he really is worse than useless. He's an opportunity cost.

FWIW, some former (and I guess present) arbs have long been uncomfortable with Jimmy's 'role', if you knew where to look and what to look for.

Diffs? Arbs are the nearest thing we have to en.Wikipedia community leaders. (I know that's not their role but until en.Wikipedia actually organises politically they're the nearest we've got. They have or have had the proven respect of a significant number of volunteers.) An arb asking Jimmy to resign from the board and stop calling himself "spokesperson for the community" would at least be heard, if not heeded.

I think he'd be heard the same way an AGM-88 hears radar.

Maybe Jimmy wouldn't hear but Jimmy's not the audience. The community would hear her, and it's they who have the power.

[Vigilant]

It is me, or has the amount of posting to Jimmy's Wikipedia user talk page dried up a bit? That would be the first sign if the community in general were turning away from him. Or does the volume of posting there come and go in waves? [...] I said at one point (in a case that arose from his user talk page) that his user talk page is really not fit for purpose, and distracts from the proper venues that should be used at Wikipedia.

I spent five years trying to engage with the man there and have given up. As you imply, he really is worse than useless. He's an opportunity cost.

FWIW, some former (and I guess present) arbs have long been uncomfortable with Jimmy's 'role', if you knew where to look and what to look for.

Diffs? Arbs are the nearest thing we have to en.Wikipedia community leaders. (I know that's not their role but until en.Wikipedia actually organises politically they're the nearest we've got. They have or have had the proven respect of a significant number of volunteers.) An arb asking Jimmy to resign from the board and stop calling himself "spokesperson for the community" would at least be heard, if not heeded.

I think he'd be heard the same way an AGM-88 hears radar.

Jimmy's not the audience. The community would hear her, and it's they who have the power.

What power, exactly, do you think the community has over Jimmy Wales?

[Anthonyhcole]

It is me, or has the amount of posting to Jimmy's Wikipedia user talk page dried up a bit? That would be the first sign if the community in general were turning away from him. Or does the volume of posting there come and go in waves? [...] I said at one point (in a case that arose from his user talk page) that his user talk page is really not fit for purpose, and distracts from the proper venues that should be used at Wikipedia.

I spent five years trying to engage with the man there and have given up. As you imply, he really is worse than useless. He's an opportunity cost.

FWIW, some former (and I guess present) arbs have long been uncomfortable with Jimmy's 'role', if you knew where to look and what to look for.

Diffs? Arbs are the nearest thing we have to en.Wikipedia community leaders. (I know that's not their role but until en.Wikipedia actually organises politically they're the nearest we've got. They have or have had the proven respect of a significant number of volunteers.) An arb asking Jimmy to resign from the board and stop calling himself "spokesperson for the community" would at least be heard, if not heeded.

I think he'd be heard the same way an AGM-88 hears radar.

Jimmy's not the audience. The community would hear her, and it's they who have the power.

What power, exactly, do you think the community has over Jimmy Wales?

The power they exercised over Arnnon Geshuri and Lila Tretikov.

[Vigilant]

The community would hear her, and it's they who have the power.

What power, exactly, do you think the community has over Jimmy Wales?

The power they exercised over Arnnon Geshuri and Lila Tretikov.

Neither one of those were Jimmy.
Both were relatively newcomer outsiders.

I think you underestimate Jimmy's protectiveness of Jimmy.
I also think you overestimate how much traction you'd get against Jimmy.
People like Gerard Meijssen and Smallboner and Coretheapple exist in large part to bask in Jimmy's glow.

[Anthonyhcole]

Neither one of those were Jimmy.
Both were relatively newcomer outsiders.

True

I think you underestimate Jimmy's protectiveness of Jimmy.
I also think you overestimate how much traction you'd get against Jimmy.

Nope. It won't be the almost unanimous clamour that we heard for Lila's and Arnnon's removal. It doesn't need to be.

I'm not sure now is the time, though. As I said above, I suspect the community is suspending judgement. If a whole bunch of respected community leaders resolutely agitated for his removal because of his despicable treatment of James - that might be a tipping point. I just don't know. And neither do you.

[Vigilant]

Neither one of those were Jimmy.
Both were relatively newcomer outsiders.

True

I think you underestimate Jimmy's protectiveness of Jimmy.
I also think you overestimate how much traction you'd get against Jimmy.

Nope. It won't be the almost unanimous clamour that we heard for Lila's and Arnnon's removal. It doesn't need to be.

I'm not sure now is the time, though. As I said above, I suspect the community is suspending judgement. If a whole bunch of respected community leaders resolutely agitated for his removal because of his despicable treatment of James - that might be a tipping point. I just don't know. And neither do you.

True.
We're just speculating here.

I think we can easily rank things as more or less likely to oust Jimmy from his nasty perch.

I don't think one arb denouncing him will get over the activation threshold.
If the rest of the board denounced him, that would probably do it.

I thought a whole bunch of well respected community leaders already tried that and he just lied and ignored you guys...
Did I miss something?

[Anthonyhcole]

I thought a whole bunch of well respected community leaders already tried that and he just lied and ignored you guys...
Did I miss something?

I don't remember that happening.

However, if it's in their hearts, now would be an appropriate time for such people to voice their revulsion. It may not dislodge him immediately, but it would loosen his grip for the next time his bullying, duplicity and self-interestedness are exposed.

[Vigilant]

I thought a whole bunch of well respected community leaders already tried that and he just lied and ignored you guys...
Did I miss something?

I don't remember that happening.

However, if it's in their hearts, now would be an appropriate time for such people to voice their revulsion. It may not dislodge him immediately, but it would loosen his grip for the next time his bullying, duplicity and self-interestedness are exposed.

If anything could start to save wikipedia, removing Jimmy from the reins of power would be it.

I'd start with the founder flag, reserved board seat and eliminating him as a faux appeal of last resort.

[Vigilant]

And now it's explicit.
https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/w ... 84010.html

In my personal opinion and recollection, two of the points raised above are
on-target:

1) Several staff, including myself, explicitly sought out Board members
whom they did not view as a directly loyal conduit to Lila, precisely
because they feared retribution from them/her.

2) The whistleblower policy was indeed insufficient because even very
serious ethical complaints raised did not rise to the level of strict
illegality.

We can do better.

Jake Orlowitz (Ocaasi)

Note that Jimmy was not one of those approached as WMF employees don't trust him.

[Vigilant]

AHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA

So dumb!
https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/w ... 84011.html

without referring to issues in the past, I think that a constructive way to
improve our governance would be to consider how our policies (including the
whistleblower policy) are adequate for all possible scenarios organizations
of our size and type may encounter.

One of the things that I personally would definitely like to discuss and
consider would be the staff liaison to the Board, present at the Board
meetings to some extent.

best,

dj

("pundit", current trustee)

Who would the staff representative be appointed by?
How would you make sure they weren't the target of retribution?

This problem has been solved by the Fortune 1000.
Use what they've put in place.
Or try to figure it out on your own like every other damn thing at the WMF.

Resign.
You are all in over your head.

[Poetlister]

I said at one point (in a case that arose from his user talk page) that his user talk page is really not fit for purpose, and distracts from the proper venues that should be used at Wikipedia.

Everyone knows that it's there and is a popular venue for discussions. Due to inertia, it may well retain that status for a long time. It's more likely (though not certain) that he'll see something there than if it were on the Village Pump or some other drama board, which may or may not be an advantage.

[SB_Johnny]

However, if it's in their hearts, now would be an appropriate time for such people to voice their revulsion. It may not dislodge him immediately, but it would loosen his grip for the next time his bullying, duplicity and self-interestedness are exposed.

Dude, just jump off the fence and start an RfC on meta. The iron is starting to cool, so do it before it's too late, or else wait indefinitely for someone else to get publicly humiliated and maybe people will do something about it next time.

[Anthonyhcole]

I'd start with [...] eliminating him as a faux appeal of last resort.

There is so much vocal bitterness about ArbCom on en.Wikipedia that you would probably have to hand that role to someone else, rather than simply abolish it, to leave people with at least the sense there is an independent appeal option.

[...] Resign.
You are all in over your head.

Dariusz ("pundit") appears to be an honourable man. I'd be very disappointed to see him go.

Dude, just jump off the fence and start an RfC on meta. The iron is starting to cool, so do it before it's too late, or else wait indefinitely for someone else to get publicly humiliated and maybe people will do something about it next time.

A premature RFC can be a serious long-term setback to an RFC's goal. There may be enough evidence to justify, in the minds of a majority at meta, his removal from the board, and it may just take a succinct, well-made case in the form of a prominent essay to put them in the mood. Or perhaps they're waiting for one more slip of Jimmy's mask. I really don't know. But I'm not seeing the necessary groundswell to justify an RFC right now.

[Vigilant]

Darius may be a very nice guy.

He's just incompetent as a WMF board member.

[Anthonyhcole]

Darius may be a very nice guy.

He's just incompetent as a WMF board member.

They all need tailored training. He knows that, and seems to be the board member pushing for that. For community-selected trustees, independence, intelligence, integrity and a good understanding of Wikipedia/Wikidata are a high enough hurdle. The rest can be learned through good, targeted training.

The structural problem that has evolved and hardened over Jimmy's tenure is institutionalised slackness. Dariusz is pushing against that. James was pushing against that.

[Vigilant]

An interesting post.
https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/w ... 84032.html

The funny and sad part is that these 'suggestions' are all bog standard in the real world.
Only in wiki land would these be mysterious practices.

The entire board is incompetent and should resign.

[Kumioko]

I said at one point (in a case that arose from his user talk page) that his user talk page is really not fit for purpose, and distracts from the proper venues that should be used at Wikipedia.

Everyone knows that it's there and is a popular venue for discussions. Due to inertia, it may well retain that status for a long time. It's more likely (though not certain) that he'll see something there than if it were on the Village Pump or some other drama board, which may or may not be an advantage.

@Carcharoth, you know, the Arbitration committee has a lot of influence with the community and with the WMF. I would bet that if the Arbcom started an RFC to remove Jimbo's admin rights/appeal rights (that he has stated multiple times he planned to give up anyway and didn't) you would almost certainly get a massive support. Would it pass? Maybe not. Would the WMF honor it? Maybe not. But at this point, it's worth trying because Jimbo really is a time sync and a liability and should have moved on long ago.

[Kelly Martin]

Carcharoth, you know, the Arbitration committee has a lot of influence with the community and with the WMF.

How can Carcharoth know this when it's evidently not even remotely true? The ArbCom has only limited influence with the community and virtually none with the WMF.

[thekohser]

...Jimbo really is a time sync and a liability and should have moved on long ago.

Couldn't agree with you more. I'll just point out as a friendly note and possible learning opportunity, that the phrase is actually "time sink".

[lilburne]

...Jimbo really is a time sync and a liability and should have moved on long ago.

Couldn't agree with you more. I'll just point out as a friendly note and possible learning opportunity, that the phrase is actually "time sink".

You've both miss spelled arsehole.

[Poetlister]

Curiously, this e-mail to the Wikimedia Mailing List does not seem to have been made public. At least, Google can;t find it.

To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>, Jimmy
Wales <jimmywales@ymail.com>, Geoff Brigham <gbrigham@wikimedia.org>
Subject: [Wikimedia-l] “For Cause”
Message-ID:
<CAF1en7UMYgDz7S6wXrdrRwZ4=vCA0bqN2Vsyh-DqhNuodGDpWA@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

Following my removal from the WMF board, Jimmy Wales publicly stated

“But in this case, it isn't relevant as this was a removal for cause.--Jimbo
Wales <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jimbo_Wales> (talk
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#top>) 08:54, 30
December 2015 (UTC)”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk ... rchive_201

If I was removed “for cause” by my fellow board members I would like to
request a written statement outlining what this cause was. In a Dec 30th,
2015 personal email JW touched on two potential reasons but they are
unfounded. If these are indeed the reasons I was removed, I feel a public
discussion would be useful.

If JW was not speaking in an official capacity and I was not removed “for
cause”, I would like to request a statement from the board to that effect.

Sincerely
--
James Heilman
MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian

[The Adversary]

Curiously, this e-mail to the Wikimedia Mailing List does not seem to have been made public. At least, Google can;t find it.
<snip: quote>

link

Also, Asme writes here:

Then without further delay, his reappointment should happen ASAP. I don’t understand why it should go back to the community for reelection when it was a Board decision to remove him. The Board should simply apologize and reinstate James Hellman now.

I guess the board though they could just remove the community elected representative...and that would be it ..

[Vigilant]

Uh oh! Someone with balls on wikimedia-l

[Zoloft]

Uh oh! Someone with balls on wikimedia-l

Todd Allen toddmallen at gmail.com
Sun May 8 03:20:51 UTC 2016

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Denny,

I appreciate that you've put forth this account. That's in no way facetious
or just a pretext, I am actually very glad to see someone speak to this.

I'd like, however, to suggest what would actually begin the process of
healing, since that's your intent. Most of us knew at least more or less
what James was accused of.

First, James needs to be restored to the Board, or at very least, his
restoration needs to be passed as a referendum to the community. Since
you've now posted your side, there's no reason that the community, rather
than the Board, shouldn't decide on James' trusteeship. That needs to
happen now, not at the next election, and it should have happened to start
with.

Second, the Board needs to resolve never to remove a community trustee
except by a successful recall referendum to the community. The Board should
never, under any circumstances, remove a community trustee without consent
of the community that elected them. That was unacceptable and must never
happen again. There will be no "healing" without a promise that it will not.

Third, the "founder" seat needs to be eliminated. Jimmy would be, of
course, eligible to run for a community seat or be appointed to an expert
seat, but he shouldn't be a "member for life". Alternatively, the "founder"
seat could be made into an advisory, non-voting position.

And finally, while this part is optional, it wouldn't hurt for the Board to
increase the number of community elected ( and not "recommended", elected)
seats to a majority. While there's room for "expert" appointed seats and
chapter selected seats (and no, chapter selected seats are NOT community
selected seats), the community should be in control and have a majority,
and the others should be an advisory minority. The community has always
been in charge of WMF projects, and this should continue to be the case.

If you want to actually start the healing process, rather than deflect, at
the very least the first three things need to be done. If you want to
regain trust, all of them need to be. The community needs to be in charge.

Todd

[The Adversary]

Uh oh! Someone with balls on wikimedia-l

<snip: interesting stuff>

....T.M.A. is also known as Seraphimblade (T-C-L), previously on arb.com. In short: a guy who has actually been elected to positions on WP (unlike Jimbo....)

[Poetlister]

....T.M.A. is also known as Seraphimblade (T-C-L), previously on arb.com. In short: a guy who has actually been elected to positions on WP (unlike Jimbo....)

Yes, but a most unpleasant, vindictive sort of person. Jimbo isn't that bad.

[Vigilant]

....T.M.A. is also known as Seraphimblade (T-C-L), previously on arb.com. In short: a guy who has actually been elected to positions on WP (unlike Jimbo....)

Yes, but a most unpleasant, vindictive sort of person. Jimbo isn't that bad.

Wash your mouth out with soap.

[thekohser]

I am amused to see that the WMF wonders out loud whether it is "doable to have an election during summer months".

If it's the heat and humidity they're worried about, couldn't they get some WikiSlaves to learn how to waft palm fronds next to the election committee members?

[Poetlister]

....T.M.A. is also known as Seraphimblade (T-C-L), previously on arb.com. In short: a guy who has actually been elected to positions on WP (unlike Jimbo....)

Yes, but a most unpleasant, vindictive sort of person. Jimbo isn't that bad.

Wash your mouth out with soap.

I know it's hard to believe that there are worse people than Jimbo in the world.

[HRIP7]

Uh oh! Someone with balls on wikimedia-l

Another interesting tidbit from Wikimedia-l, courtesy of Pete Forsyth:

By the way, I think the WMF board may have successfully obscured the fact that Jimmy Wales' role has actually *increased* in recent months, not decreased: board minutes that took a long time to publish revealed that he was the first (and to my knowledge only) person selected as a Trustee of the new Endowment. I haven't seen this discussed anywhere.

I guess Pete is referring to the Establishment of Endowment resolution:

Further resolved, that the Board of Trustees hereby approves the following initial member of the advisory board for the Tides Endowment Fund: Jimmy Wales;

[thekohser]

This has a ring of truth to it.

But then this nails it on the head.

[thekohser]

I remember back in late March 2015, Heilman was contemplating interfering with other people's livelihoods, by "reporting" them to sites like Elance and Fiverr.

Is it ironic or hypocritical, that only four months later, Doc James was paying another editor to do his dirty work on Wikipedia?

[thekohser]

They literally are still pulling the same shit as when Beaudette hired Q2 Consulting (his former employer) for a research project, without any competitive bid.

It's like they are incapable of learning from past fiascoes.

Just in case anyone was wondering how Q2 Consulting is doing, it appears they closed up shop shortly after October 2016, which was the last time their website was in working condition for Wayback Machine captures.

Anyone who wants the full story about Q2 and the WMF from 11 years ago, can read about it here.

[Zoloft]

James Heilman being a current WMF Board member means irony is dead.

[Vigilant]

James Heilman being a current WMF Board member means irony is dead.

Well, he seems to have learned his place.

[Zoloft]

James Heilman being a current WMF Board member means irony is dead.

Well, he seems to have learned his place.

I remember he was all about transparency.