Another WMF employee, er, admin, bites the dust

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Re: Another WMF employee, er, admin, bites the dust

Unread post by Zoloft » Mon Sep 21, 2015 2:05 am

unwanted wrote:
Dennis Brown wrote:
unwanted wrote:
Dennis Brown wrote:... so I ramped it up with a personal attack and no one seemed to mind, proving the bias against Eric (2nd time I've done that).
Proving a bias against Eric? Only from the perspective of someone that believes that content creation forgives all misbehaviour. The only reason I never blocked you for crap like that was because I knew in advance that the block would persist for milliseconds at best.
If your first reaction is to instantly block someone (anyone) for a singular, isolated uncivil/NPA comment, then the problem isn't the person making the comment. The block button is easier than dialog, but seldom as effective.
Why on earth would you consider this instance of supporting a disruptive editor to be "singular"? I would think "chronic" would be a more accurate description. But yes, you've illustrated the problem: most people would say "Dennis Brown only used naughty words once, so that didn't merit a block", and few would look at the situation more deeply and say "Dennis Brown supports disruptive editors and prolongs conflicts, generally making it more difficult for productive editors to edit".
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Re: Another WMF employee, er, admin, bites the dust

Unread post by Vigilant » Mon Sep 21, 2015 4:31 am

Welcome to our fetid basement, Kww.
Hello, John. John, hello. You're the one soul I would come up here to collect myself.

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Re: Another WMF employee, er, admin, bites the dust

Unread post by Moral Hazard » Mon Sep 21, 2015 6:30 am

KWW,
Please respond to discussions of your and Wehwalt's behavior regarding Natalee Holloway.
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Re: Another WMF employee, er, admin, bites the dust

Unread post by Dennis Brown » Mon Sep 21, 2015 6:49 am

unwanted wrote:
Dennis Brown wrote:
unwanted wrote:
Dennis Brown wrote:... so I ramped it up with a personal attack and no one seemed to mind, proving the bias against Eric (2nd time I've done that).
Proving a bias against Eric? Only from the perspective of someone that believes that content creation forgives all misbehaviour. The only reason I never blocked you for crap like that was because I knew in advance that the block would persist for milliseconds at best.
If your first reaction is to instantly block someone (anyone) for a singular, isolated uncivil/NPA comment, then the problem isn't the person making the comment. The block button is easier than dialog, but seldom as effective.
Why on earth would you consider this instance of supporting a disruptive editor to be "singular"? I would think "chronic" would be a more accurate description. But yes, you've illustrated the problem: most people would say "Dennis Brown only used naughty words once, so that didn't merit a block", and few would look at the situation more deeply and say "Dennis Brown supports disruptive editors and prolongs conflicts, generally making it more difficult for productive editors to edit".
Perhaps the problem is that you and I define "disruptive" and "productive" differently. In this specific instance, Eric voted against me at RfA, so it would have been easy to hold a grudge. Instead, I took the time to work with him on some projects and got to know him. He is a pain in the ass, and I've told him as much more than a few times. Most of the time, he earns the problems he gets into (which is why you don't see me commenting then), but not always. Too many are quick to judge without actually reading the whole story and just assume he is guilty after reading one or two sentences, because he is the "evil Eric/Malleus". They can't look past the single use of a crude word, they want to play civility cop. Personally, I'm not interested in building the most polite social network, I'm into building a world class encyclopedia. It is already a near impossible task to do with volunteers. Narrowing the field down to just those that are just super nice and polite doesn't make it easier.

And if you think I overlook his problems, you'd be wrong. Chillum just barely beat me to blocking him several months ago. Three days. When others complained, I backed Chillum on Eric's page because it was a proportional block, and the drama died down. Again, it is easy to assume if you don't have the whole story. I can respect an editor's good qualities even while abhorring some of their behaviors. I just try to not overreact and get block happy over it. So to say "Dennis Brown supports disruptive editors and prolongs conflicts, generally making it more difficult for productive editors to edit" is not only hyperbole, it is demonstrably untrue and blindly simplistic. You can't just draw a line between good guys and bad guys, most of us are somewhere in the grey. This is why people who think in black and white terms have troubles when volunteering at Wikipedia.
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Re: Another WMF employee, er, admin, bites the dust

Unread post by unwanted » Mon Sep 21, 2015 1:17 pm

Dennis Brown wrote:[ It is already a near impossible task to do with volunteers. Narrowing the field down to just those that are just super nice and polite doesn't make it easier.
No, but retaining those that show time and time again that they won't follow policies makes it impossible.

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Re: Another WMF employee, er, admin, bites the dust

Unread post by MMAR » Mon Sep 21, 2015 1:51 pm

Dennis Brown wrote:
unwanted wrote:
Dennis Brown wrote:
unwanted wrote:
Dennis Brown wrote:... so I ramped it up with a personal attack and no one seemed to mind, proving the bias against Eric (2nd time I've done that).
Proving a bias against Eric? Only from the perspective of someone that believes that content creation forgives all misbehaviour. The only reason I never blocked you for crap like that was because I knew in advance that the block would persist for milliseconds at best.
If your first reaction is to instantly block someone (anyone) for a singular, isolated uncivil/NPA comment, then the problem isn't the person making the comment. The block button is easier than dialog, but seldom as effective.
Why on earth would you consider this instance of supporting a disruptive editor to be "singular"? I would think "chronic" would be a more accurate description. But yes, you've illustrated the problem: most people would say "Dennis Brown only used naughty words once, so that didn't merit a block", and few would look at the situation more deeply and say "Dennis Brown supports disruptive editors and prolongs conflicts, generally making it more difficult for productive editors to edit".
Perhaps the problem is that you and I define "disruptive" and "productive" differently. In this specific instance, Eric voted against me at RfA, so it would have been easy to hold a grudge. Instead, I took the time to work with him on some projects and got to know him. He is a pain in the ass, and I've told him as much more than a few times. Most of the time, he earns the problems he gets into (which is why you don't see me commenting then), but not always. Too many are quick to judge without actually reading the whole story and just assume he is guilty after reading one or two sentences, because he is the "evil Eric/Malleus". They can't look past the single use of a crude word, they want to play civility cop. Personally, I'm not interested in building the most polite social network, I'm into building a world class encyclopedia. It is already a near impossible task to do with volunteers. Narrowing the field down to just those that are just super nice and polite doesn't make it easier.

And if you think I overlook his problems, you'd be wrong. Chillum just barely beat me to blocking him several months ago. Three days. When others complained, I backed Chillum on Eric's page because it was a proportional block, and the drama died down. Again, it is easy to assume if you don't have the whole story. I can respect an editor's good qualities even while abhorring some of their behaviors. I just try to not overreact and get block happy over it. So to say "Dennis Brown supports disruptive editors and prolongs conflicts, generally making it more difficult for productive editors to edit" is not only hyperbole, it is demonstrably untrue and blindly simplistic. You can't just draw a line between good guys and bad guys, most of us are somewhere in the grey. This is why people who think in black and white terms have troubles when volunteering at Wikipedia.
Why is it you really poor Wikipedians seem to always want to assume that a critic hasn't fully availed themselves of all the facts? If you're in the critic business, Eric's hard not to miss, but he really got on my radar as one of the chief harassers of LB. Once I started to see prominent Wikipedians describe the guy as the Elephant in the room, and talk in terms of the "Eric Corbett Problem", and saw others repeatedly mention his special status and apparent invincibility in the face of the 'law', then you know what I did? I had a real good read of what he'd been up to outside of the areas I already knew about. It does not make good reading. I wonder, given how busy your life apparently is, how much time have you ever actually devoted to following the guy, watching how he conducts himself in a dispute, from beginning to end?

Even if we didn't know the full story of the horror show that is Eric, and even if he wasn't a member here and didn't continually remind us through that how much of an ass he is, even if I didn't already have lots of personal experience through his activities here as to how much of a spineless coward he is (he's called me a liar on multiple occasions, then disappeared each time as soon as I set him straight with the facts), you've condemned yourself with your own words here - you've clearly let your personal admiration for his content and your personal belief that he's some kind of victim to cloud your judgement as to whether or not you've played an effective enough role as a Wikipedia admin w.r.t his conduct. Indeed, much like Black Kite and Drmies, based on your records of action and inaction, I find the very suggestion that anyone should really consider your relation to Eric as editor-admin rather than something much more biased, as quite ridiculous. Still, as seen with how little attention was paid to Sandstein's evidence re. Black Kite in the AE arb case, on Wikipedia, this sort of relationship and abuse of position isn't really seen as much of a problem.

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Re: Another WMF employee, er, admin, bites the dust

Unread post by MMAR » Mon Sep 21, 2015 1:56 pm

eppur si muove wrote:
MMAR wrote:
Dennis Brown wrote:
Zoloft wrote:
MMAR wrote:...

Greetings Dennis :XD Thanks for finally raising the courage to post, since you've been lurking for a while now, for reasons I suspect I accurately outlined elsewhere (thread locked, sorry) viewtopic.php?f=8&t=6810

...
I have flushed that topic of the trolling and backhanded sass, and have unlocked it, since it mentions Dennis a lot, has now been invoked in this topic, and Dennis has the right of reply.
I appreciate, I had not seen that thread. Real life keeps me busy, so I haven't seen 99% of the site. Full time job, new business, middle of an ugly divorce, I have plenty enough going on. I think I would probably pass on replying there. Everyone has a right to their opinion. I do read some things here, which is how I got the idea to start the article on Susan Brown (professor) . I've started a couple of article that way, always giving credit (see first edit) where it is due. In that respect, I've found the site useful. There are plenty of valid reasons to criticize Wikipedia, and I usually do it there, online, and I even participate in getting real change, so I do more than give it lip service. What I'm not interested in defending myself against those that know nothing about me. If someone feels I'm an ass, I'm fine with that. There is a quote on my user page, it has been there a very long time. It is by DGG, someone who was a mentor to me early on. It is worth reading, and may shed some light. Otherwise, it probably isn't good to highjack this thread with unrelated banter.
Well, there we go. I told everyone you'd not be up for defending your actions here, and what a surprise, it's true. I knew enough about you that you'd obviously decline this opportunity to defend yourself in an environment you can't control. And although you claim you rarely read, I think my theory that you only registered, and only continue to come back, to keep a close eye on threads like viewtopic.php?p=151975 so that you might alter your on Wikipedia conduct to make you look like less of an ass, holds true. Although I don't think 'being an ass' is even a strong enough description for your conduct in that case. You're basically putting Brad through some kind of torture ritual, as punishment for baiting Malik. Not nice. Not nice at all. I hope for your sake that he isn't like you, and his user name isn't is real name, given some to the things that have been said about him on Wikipedia.
He's listed a number of things that most people would regard as higher priority than replying to you. Personally I would regard his watching his twentieth favourite current TV programme as higher priority than replying to you.
Don't worry my Italian friend, nobody is blind to what motivates you to keep popping up like this on certain topics and issues. Your priorities are clear.

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Re: Another WMF employee, er, admin, bites the dust

Unread post by Anroth » Mon Sep 21, 2015 3:20 pm

[popcorn]

-edit- Ooo we have a smiley for that. :popcorn:

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Re: Another WMF employee, er, admin, bites the dust

Unread post by Cla68 » Mon Sep 21, 2015 11:20 pm

Moral Hazard wrote:KWW,
Please respond to discussions of your and Wehwalt's behavior regarding Natalee Holloway.
Welcome to Wikipediocracy, KWW. Now, what WAS the deal with you and the Natalee Holloway article?

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Re: Another WMF employee, er, admin, bites the dust

Unread post by unwanted » Tue Sep 22, 2015 12:44 am

Cla68 wrote:
Moral Hazard wrote:KWW,
Please respond to discussions of your and Wehwalt's behavior regarding Natalee Holloway.
Welcome to Wikipediocracy, KWW. Now, what WAS the deal with you and the Natalee Holloway article?
Neutrality, perhaps? No one knows precisely what JvdS did that night: only a fool would think he was completely uninvolved, but we don't know whether his acts were passive or active, and, if active, precisely how active they were. What we do know is that the Aruban national police, the Kingdom's investigative services, private investigation services, American marines, Kingdom marines, and legions of TV reporters were never able to turn up sufficient evidence to even put him on trial. I've always suspected Paulus van der Sloot had a lot to do with that, but that, again, is something that no one knows. That means the article should never represent JvdS as a known murderer in that case.

Beth strikes me as a tragic figure: hard not to grieve for a woman in that position, but sympathy and grief aside, she did take on an entire country, accusing it of colluding with a murderer, and she eventually took it over the top (with Dr. Phil, CNN, and even the Lifetime Movie Network egging her on). Portraying her as a saint fighting corruption is unreasonable: closer to a woman so beset by grief that she lost all perspective. A substantial percentage of disappearances remain unsolved forever, and no amount of public pressure and fingerpointing will fix that. Aruba did spend over half its police budget for the year working on this case, and it's hard for me not to view that as a good faith effort on their part.

There are numerous other concerns that people have that always struck me as downright silly. No one searching for "Natalee Holloway" is interested in her high-school performance or her 4H participation: the only thing they are looking for is the story of her disappearance and the subsequent hullabaloo.

The bit about Beth's divorce was amazing to me: she got divorced in the middle of the story and changed her name, not to her maiden name, but to the name of her former husband, from whom she remained divorced. There was no implication from any source that she had gotten reinvolved with Dave Holloway, and the divorce was a no-fault divorce (which, in Alabama legalese, is a "complete incompatibility of temperament such that the parties can no longer live together"). So, to help make it clear that Beth's divorce and subsequent odd name change did not involve reinvolvement with Dave (and not committing the WP:OR sin of calling it a "no-fault divorce" when the source did not), the article listed the reason as the source did: a "complete incompatibility of temperament such that the parties can no longer live together". Some of the brain-trusts involved in Wikipedia decided that there must be some horrible reason we would use such language and kept trying to call it a BLP violation. Dealing with such people certainly strained my ability to live within the confines of WP:NPA.

As for my interest? It was a local news story for me, not something happening in a faraway land. The daily stories in the Antillianse Dagblad helped me practice my Dutch comprehension and gave me a counterpoint to the stories in the American press. Jan van der Straten, the Aruban police chief, eventually took over the police force on my island and did a commendable job there. The Aruban police may be a small island police force, but they weren't (and aren't) the Keystone Cops.

The fools that believe that I am in the employ of the Aruban government (or tourist association) are just that: fools.

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Re: Another WMF employee, er, admin, bites the dust

Unread post by Moral Hazard » Tue Sep 22, 2015 8:01 am

Thank you for replying.
Your witness, Eric Barbour.
Moral Hazard wrote:KWW was discussed in a recent thead, which had this contribution from me:
viewtopic.php?p=145840#p145840
Moral Hazard wrote:Kww (T-C-L) abused tools previously, having teamed with Wehwalt (T-C-L) on the Disappearance of Natalee Holloway (T-H-L) (which they entitled Natalee Holloway (T-C-L)).

In early 2015, then-arbitrator KWW was criticized by Anthonyhcole (T-C-L), SandyGeorgia (T-C-L), and others at ANI:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia ... nd_Wehwalt

Wikipediocracy's Eric Barbour accused KWW of possible paid editing (on behalf of Aruba, where Holloway disappeared) in several threads: In my interactions, Wehwalt has been reasonable, but I am sorry to say that otherwise, when he has been bad, he has been very very bad.
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Re: Another WMF employee, er, admin, bites the dust

Unread post by unwanted » Tue Sep 22, 2015 1:13 pm

Moral Hazard wrote:Thank you for replying.
Your witness, Eric Barbour.
Anyone that takes the time to read that should substitute "KWW is suspected of " and "KWW is accused of" as "Eric Barbour imagines that ...". Eric's notion that I am a member of the Aruban Secret Police is lunacy on its face.

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Re: Another WMF employee, er, admin, bites the dust

Unread post by Vigilant » Tue Sep 22, 2015 6:07 pm

unwanted wrote:
Moral Hazard wrote:Thank you for replying.
Your witness, Eric Barbour.
Anyone that takes the time to read that should substitute "KWW is suspected of " and "KWW is accused of" as "Eric Barbour imagines that ...". Eric's notion that I am a member of the Aruban Secret Police is lunacy on its face.
I would imagine the Aruban secret police would have very cool uniforms.
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Re: Another WMF employee, er, admin, bites the dust

Unread post by Poetlister » Wed Sep 23, 2015 9:20 pm

Vigilant wrote:I would imagine the Aruban secret police would have very cool uniforms.
Do secret police have uniforms? Wouldn't that make them a bit, you know, not secret? :blink:
"The higher we soar the smaller we appear to those who cannot fly" - Nietzsche

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Re: Another WMF employee, er, admin, bites the dust

Unread post by Vigilant » Wed Sep 23, 2015 10:56 pm

Poetlister wrote:
Vigilant wrote:I would imagine the Aruban secret police would have very cool uniforms.
Do secret police have uniforms? Wouldn't that make them a bit, you know, not secret? :blink:
Board shorts, flip flops, oakleys and an "I <3 Aruba" TShirt.
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Re: Another WMF employee, er, admin, bites the dust

Unread post by SB_Johnny » Thu Sep 24, 2015 12:23 am

Image
This is not a signature.

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Re: Another WMF employee, er, admin, bites the dust

Unread post by EricBarbour » Sun Oct 18, 2015 10:29 pm

unwanted wrote:Eric's notion that I am a member of the Aruban Secret Police is lunacy on its face.
Image

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Re: Another WMF employee, er, admin, bites the dust

Unread post by Vigilant » Sun Oct 18, 2015 10:33 pm

Nobody is talking about YOU. Nobody.
Hello, John. John, hello. You're the one soul I would come up here to collect myself.

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Re: Another WMF employee, er, admin, bites the dust

Unread post by unwanted » Mon Oct 19, 2015 4:54 am

Vigilant wrote:Nobody is talking about YOU. Nobody.
Actually, on this thread he was the Eric in question. Nice to see his use of verbal skills and subtle reasoning in his response.

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Re: Another WMF employee, er, admin, bites the dust

Unread post by Ross McPherson » Mon Oct 19, 2015 6:41 am

Almost all you admins look like Stasi or NKVD to me. Even ex-admins look like Stasi or NKVD. The best way to deal with the lot of you is just to accept the bullet in the back of the head and be thankful for it.
Thoroughly impartial

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Re: Another WMF employee, er, admin, bites the dust

Unread post by Randy from Boise » Mon Oct 19, 2015 10:32 am

Ross McPherson wrote:Almost all you admins look like Stasi or NKVD to me. Even ex-admins look like Stasi or NKVD. The best way to deal with the lot of you is just to accept the bullet in the back of the head and be thankful for it.
There, there, some ex-Chekists can move on to achieve great things. Take, for example, Vladimir Putin...

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Re: Another WMF employee, er, admin, bites the dust

Unread post by Moral Hazard » Mon Oct 19, 2015 10:52 am

Randy from Boise wrote:
Ross McPherson wrote:Almost all you admins look like Stasi or NKVD to me. Even ex-admins look like Stasi or NKVD. The best way to deal with the lot of you is just to accept the bullet in the back of the head and be thankful for it.
There, there, some ex-Chekists can move on to achieve great things. Take, for example, Vladimir Putin...

RfB
Are you impersonating Louis Farrakhan and his "Hitler was great"?
Professor Timothy D. Snyder, Yale University wrote: As Russian military convoys continue the Russian invasion of Ukraine, Vladimir Putin has chosen to rehabilitate the alliance between Hitler and Stalin that began World War II. Speaking before an audience of Russian historians at the Museum of Modern Russian History, Putin said: “The Soviet Union signed a non-aggression agreement with Germany. They say, ‘Oh, how bad.’ But what is so bad about it, if the Soviet Union did not want to fight? What is so bad?”

In fact, Stalin did want to fight. The August 1939 Molotov-Ribbentrop pact had a secret protocol that divided Eastern Europe between Hitler and Stalin. It led directly to the German-Soviet invasion of Poland the following month that began World War II. In speaking of this agreement, known as the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, as good foreign policy, Putin has violated both a long Soviet taboo and revised his own prior position that the agreement was “immoral.”

"Putin’s New Nostalgia"
Timothy Snyder. The New York Review of Books
http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/20 ... in-hitler/
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Re: Another WMF employee, er, admin, bites the dust

Unread post by Randy from Boise » Mon Oct 19, 2015 8:06 pm

Moral Hazard wrote:
Randy from Boise wrote:
Ross McPherson wrote:Almost all you admins look like Stasi or NKVD to me. Even ex-admins look like Stasi or NKVD. The best way to deal with the lot of you is just to accept the bullet in the back of the head and be thankful for it.
There, there, some ex-Chekists can move on to achieve great things. Take, for example, Vladimir Putin...

RfB
Are you impersonating Louis Farrakhan and his "Hitler was great"?
Your irony detector is failing, KW....

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Re: Another WMF employee, er, admin, bites the dust

Unread post by Moral Hazard » Mon Oct 19, 2015 9:20 pm

I know somebody who has a scar from where he was shot on Maidan. I doubtlessly miss irony.
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Re: Another WMF employee, er, admin, bites the dust

Unread post by Poetlister » Tue Oct 20, 2015 12:53 pm

+1. I know a relative of Boris Nemtsov (T-H-L).
"The higher we soar the smaller we appear to those who cannot fly" - Nietzsche

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