Today LadyofShalott(T-C-L), ''administratrice extraordinaire'', turns 25 yet again. She likes champagne and chocolate, and giftcards for the iTunes store. She graciously accepts compliments about the beauty of her mind and her bodyDrmies(T-C-L) 17:35, 17 July 2013
What is the admin issue that you seek assistance with? A Quest For Knowledge(T-C-L) 17:39, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
I know this is intended to be joking and all, but perhaps we could avoid making jokes about other users' bodies and how people should praise them (or not praise them)Fluffernutter(T-C-L) 17:45, 17 July 2013
Quite. Unless I'm missing something here, this comes off...rather improper. Ironholds(T-C-L) 17:47, 17 July 2013
Jesus, tough crowd!
And did Ironholds really just lecture Drmies about impropriety?Floquenbeam(T-C-L) 17:51, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
Bushwa, Drmies and LoS are very good friends, and this is obviously a well-intended and humorous note with not a hint of impropriety about it. You folks need to re-discover your sense of humor. Beyond My Ken(T-C-L) 17:52, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
Hence "unless I'm missing something here"; if I am, great . Floquenbeam, if you have an issue with my conduct I invite you, as I have invited others, to discuss it with me and offer me a chance to participate in the conversation. Ironholds(T-C-L) 17:54, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
Even if LoS were to be personally fine with having her body discussed on AN, it still wouldn't be an appropriate conversation to have on a website that's struggling to not objectify, offend, and drive off female editors who might be reading. Like I said, I get that Drmies is making a friendly joke and doesn't intend harm, but the outside world reading this is going to get the impression that Wikipedia admins are cool with discussing female contributors' bodies for their own amusement, because lol-isn't-it-fun-to-talk-about-women's-bodies-publicly-even-when-their-femininity-has-nothing-to-do-with-this-website. Fluffernutter(T-C-L) 18:00, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
Why not hat the discussion then, rather than drawing more attention to it? Obviously not everyone appreciates this humourous post. Fine. Why not close it, insted of turning it into something bigger? Sluzzelin(T-C-L) 18:07, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
Because I think it's important to make the point that, at least from my perspective, this is Not Okay. I would like people who read this section to see that not everyone thought it was awesome, funny, and appropriate for this noticeboard, because obviously a notable portion of male editors think it's harmless to say things like this and it alarms me that readers would be left with the impression that ''everyone'' here does. Fluffernutter(T-C-L) 18:16, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
Dear Fluffernutter(T-C-L),
I also gladly accept compliments about the beauty of my mind and my body. Drmies(T-C-L) (talk) 10:29 pm, Yesterday (UTC+2)
I'm sure they're both utterly delightful and I congratulate you on your efforts in pursuit of them I'm sorry that mess came down on your shoulders; I'm perfectly aware you meant no harm to either LoS or the project, but just sort of put your foot in an institutional-level issue that you didn't see coming. fluffernutter(T-C-L) 10:45 pm, Yesterday
I would normally respect your (Fluffernutter) right to say something, even if I thought it a misinterpretation, except for 3 issues:
Your characterization of Drmies' edit as "making jokes about other users' bodies and how people should praise them (or not praise them)" is deeply unfair (my empahsis added, to highlight the part I felt was particularly unfair, though I object to the entire characterization). Such comments run a great risk of appearing so silly or over the top that they are likely to make others tune you out, and actually harden their position.
Mr "Punch a hole in their windpipe, light them on fire" Ironholds is the last person on the planet in a position to lecture anyone about appropriate ways to address or talk about others; he needs to address his own serious shortcomings first. The fact that he is still on the WMF payroll and an admin here is an order of magnitude much more damaging to any desire to retaining and attract new female editors than Drmies' comment.
And then I remembered something else, googled it, and confirmed it:
you're an IRC friend of Ironholds, and evidently participate in sex/body image/joking behavior yourself, which is much more raw than Drmies' (see, for example, meta:IRC/Quotes/archives/2011).
So publicly calling out someone else over this is hypocritical. OK for you, just not for others?
And please, please don't say "but that was IRC". Stereotypes and hateful talk and behavior get propagated and passed on to new, relatively young editors on IRC too (I saw quite a few such young editors in the IRC logs on Meta). If you actually care about the bigger issue, change your own behavior first.
Floquenbeam,
as I've already told you, if you'd like to talk about my behaviour I'm happy to do so, and put that quote (and others) in context. If you're just interested in judging me based on what has been communicated to you, that's your prerogative, but it's not going to be helpful or productive. In the meantime, the fact that I happen to agree with Fluff is not something that has any impact on the validity of her comments. Ironholds(T-C-L) (talk) 1:12 am, Today (UTC+2)
Er, right, ok Floq.
I'm not sure what you mean by your first point - that I was insinuating that Drmies was insulting LoS's attractiveness, and thus misrepresenting him? If so, you've misread. My point was that whether we're praising or insulting a female admin's attractiveness, neither of those would be appropriate for a noticeboard - it is in pretty much no case appropriate to go into the attractiveness of a female editor's body on AN. As for your second point, I'm not really sure why your opinion that Ironholds should be fired has any bearing on my pointing out inappropriate behavior by someone else. And as for your third...well, you're obviously not familiar with Jabberwocky if you think that quoting a poem - a nineteenth century children's nonsense poem - is akin to plunking down on a public noticeboard and talking about how hot I think a fellow editor's body is.
I'm frankly aghast at the level of vitriol that's being directed against me this afternoon for daring to speak up in response to something I found sexually objectifying and inappropriate. I doubt anything I say is going to convince you and some others that I'm not a horrible, horrible censorship nazi who's out to get your right to speak freely about women's bodies wherever and whenever you please, and I'm just disappointed that so many people seem to think the problem here was my daring to contradict Drmies's right to comment on LoS's body, rather than Drmies making a well-intentioned joke that was nonetheless problematic. I doubt it's going to be worthwhile to continue this conversation given your position.
A fluffernutter(T-C-L) is a sandwich! (talk) 1:27 am, Today (UTC+2)
As I just said above, I'm not upset that you somehow tried to "censor" Drmies; I never used that word, that's not what I said, it's not what I meant. I object to your description of his entire comment as "making jokes about other users' bodies", and your claim that he is saying people "should" praise, or not praise, them.
Ironholds' participation in that thread is related to your position because
(a) you're friends with someone who has done much worse, and I have yet to see any criticism of that; and
(b) I suspect the AN thread was brought up on IRC, and that's why he showed up to agree with you so fast.
If you're going to summarize your comments in that IRC log as "quoting a poem", then you're being dishonest, either with yourself, or with me. You obviously know there are several young impressionable editors on that channel, and you were modelling behavior for them that is anathema to what you claim to care about.
Like I said, if someone who was not being hypocritical had brought this up in a reasonable way, I'd have had no objection.
And yes, I suppose refusing to respond is, of course, your prerogative. --Floquenbeam(T-C-L) (talk) 1:47 am, Today (UTC+2)
I offer this for a fourth time: if you want to discuss my actions in more detail, I am happy to do so. Until then, it seems unfair to say "based on my understanding of the situation, which I actively refuse to accept additional data into, X and Y and Z are true". Ironholds(T-C-L) (talk) 1:53 am, Today (UTC+2)
(I would note that I saw the thread because I was browsing AN, not because of anything on IRC. A lot more editors also showed up; to my knowledge there is no Birthday Wishes Cabal, although it'd be a nice project). Ironholds(T-C-L) (talk) 1:54 am, Today (UTC+2)
.... If you honestly shared Fluffernutter's concern about attracting and retaining more female editors who might be offended by what Drmies said, wouldn't your first step be to resign your adminship and WMF position? Floquenbeam(T-C-L) 23:12, 17 July 2013
...
I don't care too much about puerile behavior. I'm not the boss of anyone here, can't control it even if I wanted to, and it's easy to avoid 90% of it by not frequenting IRC channels.
But it gets in my craw when someone who does engage in lots of it decides to lecture someone else doing something at least two orders of magnitude less offensive.
It is prima facie evidence that you care more about the ability to tell others what to do than you care about making WP welcoming to editors. This was, I believe, a major theme in the opposes in RFA's #1-4, it isn't my imagination.
I don't need background in why you felt justified in making some of the comments you've made on IRC; taken in isolation, they're unimportant (and anyone would understand momentary frustration with Kiefer).
But they aren't isolated; taken together, they're a pattern of behavior incompatible with someone who wants to maintain and expand female editing, or any type of editing, really. They're a pattern of behavior incompatible with ''representing'' Wikipedia as a community liason and an admin. Floquenbeam(T-C-L) 01:50, 18 July 2013
I wasn't planning on justifying the comments, or taking them in isolation: that would imply I thought they were acceptable. I was planning to explain the, as you put it, pattern, and why it is (or more accurately, was) there.
In any case, I've made the offer; you're welcome to take it up, or not to. But I would like to think that, were our positions somehow reversed, I would be willing to at least listen to you.
Either you're right, and my actions are being accurately represented and are completely indefensible, or you're wrong, and you're writing off a long-term contributor without being willing to listen to both sides. In either case, an informed decision can be reached with 5 minutes of your time.
I hope you might find it in you to at least listen, even if you do so skeptically or while firmly believing nothing I say could make a difference to your opinion. Ironholds(T-C-L) 02:03, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
Well it's not like I'm going to hat the discussion here; if you have something to say, I'll at least read what you write. But yes, it will be with a skeptical attitude.
By the way, I"m not "writing off" a ''contributor''; I don't think you should be banished, or banned, I think you should no longer represent WP as an admin and a WMF liason. Floquenbeam(T-C-L) 02:17, 18 July 2013
Okay. Do you have any objection to me emailing you? The Streisand Effect is live and well. Ironholds(T-C-L) 02:22, 18 July 2013
I'm not thrilled about it, but if there's a legitimate reason to do so, no I don't object. Probably won't get a response today, though. Floquenbeam(T-C-L) 02:26, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
Re: Down with Ironholds?
Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 2:13 pm
by mac
And please, please don't say "but that was IRC". Stereotypes and hateful talk and behavior get propagated and passed on to new, relatively young editors on IRC too (I saw quite a few such young editors in the IRC logs on Meta). If you actually care about the bigger issue, change your own behavior first.
Go Floquenbeam! Point them to this if they want to see some of Ironholds' IRC antics. And that's rich, Ironholds demanding to have a discussion, then demanding that it must be taken to email.
Re: Down with Ironholds?
Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 2:29 pm
by Kiefer.Wolfowitz
mac wrote:
And please, please don't say "but that was IRC". Stereotypes and hateful talk and behavior get propagated and passed on to new, relatively young editors on IRC too (I saw quite a few such young editors in the IRC logs on Meta). If you actually care about the bigger issue, change your own behavior first.
Go Floquenbeam(T-C-L)! Point them to this if they want to see some of Ironholds' IRC antics. And that's rich, Ironholds(T-C-L) demanding to have a discussion, then demanding that it must be taken to email.
Hi Mac!
It might be best to focus on Ironholds's threats and misogynistic statements, and leave aside any personal relations (or jokes about non-existent relations) to protect the privacy of the innocent.
Re: Down with Ironholds?
Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 3:05 pm
by mac
Kiefer.Wolfowitz wrote:
mac wrote:
And please, please don't say "but that was IRC". Stereotypes and hateful talk and behavior get propagated and passed on to new, relatively young editors on IRC too (I saw quite a few such young editors in the IRC logs on Meta). If you actually care about the bigger issue, change your own behavior first.
Go Floquenbeam(T-C-L)! Point them to this if they want to see some of Ironholds' IRC antics. And that's rich, Ironholds(T-C-L) demanding to have a discussion, then demanding that it must be taken to email.
Hi Mac!
It might be best to focus on Ironholds's threats and misogynistic statements, and leave aside any personal relations (or jokes about non-existent relations) to protect the privacy of the innocent.
Yes, you are right. They seem to have removed the link, but it remains live at Free Uncyclopedia*, where they can't get to it.
"[19:58] <Ironholds> You should however have instead taken your pen, punched a hole in her windpipe and looked on as her attempts to wave for help got increasingly feeble."
—Ironholds
"[19:58] <Ironholds> You should however have instead taken your pen, punched a hole in her windpipe and looked on as her attempts to wave for help got increasingly feeble."
—Ironholds
Sadly,
but it looks like that quote was added to the Free Uncyc article. Thanks.
Re: Down with Ironholds?
Posted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 2:56 pm
by Mancunium
ED up for me, and the Ironholds page still being edited by Hipcrime aka Badmachine: link
"I'm Autistic, having Aspergers Syndrome, i have an IQ of 145, an Eidetic memory to do with sounds and am lucky enough to suffer from Bipolar disorder."
—Ironholds, suffering all the diseases that come from too much Wikipedia
Oliver Keyes (going by the street handle "Ironholds"), is the pimp-daddy of TOW and Freenode, scoring every bitch that dares chat in his vicinity of e-masculinity. His lifetime dream already being accomplished (becoming "Community Liaison, Product Development" for the Wikimedia Foundation (it means he sits in IRC all day and finds what Wikipedia users "want")), he now spends his golden years unleashing anger in public IRC channels, and then having his rage elevated once he realizes people may remember his words and/or actions.
Ironholds later deleted his userpage because of this article.
With IRC logs, dox, illustrations, &c.
Re: Down with Ironholds?
Posted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 3:14 pm
by mac
Mancunium wrote:ED up for me, and the Ironholds page still being edited by Hipcrime aka Badmachine: link
"I'm Autistic, having Aspergers Syndrome, i have an IQ of 145, an Eidetic memory to do with sounds and am lucky enough to suffer from Bipolar disorder."
—Ironholds, suffering all the diseases that come from too much Wikipedia
Oliver Keyes (going by the street handle "Ironholds"), is the pimp-daddy of TOW and Freenode, scoring every bitch that dares chat in his vicinity of e-masculinity. His lifetime dream already being accomplished (becoming "Community Liaison, Product Development" for the Wikimedia Foundation (it means he sits in IRC all day and finds what Wikipedia users "want")), he now spends his golden years unleashing anger in public IRC channels, and then having his rage elevated once he realizes people may remember his words and/or actions.
Ironholds later deleted his userpage because of this article.
With IRC logs, dox, illustrations, &c.
It began loading properly for me last night. Thanks, Mancunium. By the way, make sure to check out the talk page, for extended content.
Re: Down with Ironholds?
Posted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 6:11 pm
by Malleus
Mancunium wrote:ED up for me, and the Ironholds page still being edited by Hipcrime aka Badmachine: link
"I'm Autistic, having Aspergers Syndrome, i have an IQ of 145, an Eidetic memory to do with sounds and am lucky enough to suffer from Bipolar disorder."
—Ironholds, suffering all the diseases that come from too much Wikipedia
Oliver Keyes (going by the street handle "Ironholds"), is the pimp-daddy of TOW and Freenode, scoring every bitch that dares chat in his vicinity of e-masculinity. His lifetime dream already being accomplished (becoming "Community Liaison, Product Development" for the Wikimedia Foundation (it means he sits in IRC all day and finds what Wikipedia users "want")), he now spends his golden years unleashing anger in public IRC channels, and then having his rage elevated once he realizes people may remember his words and/or actions.
Ironholds later deleted his userpage because of this article.
With IRC logs, dox, illustrations, &c.
Why would anyone in their right mind employ someone with Aspergers in a community liaison role?
Re: Down with Ironholds?
Posted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 6:19 pm
by Vigilant
Malleus wrote:
Mancunium wrote:ED up for me, and the Ironholds page still being edited by Hipcrime aka Badmachine: link
"I'm Autistic, having Aspergers Syndrome, i have an IQ of 145, an Eidetic memory to do with sounds and am lucky enough to suffer from Bipolar disorder."
—Ironholds, suffering all the diseases that come from too much Wikipedia
Oliver Keyes (going by the street handle "Ironholds"), is the pimp-daddy of TOW and Freenode, scoring every bitch that dares chat in his vicinity of e-masculinity. His lifetime dream already being accomplished (becoming "Community Liaison, Product Development" for the Wikimedia Foundation (it means he sits in IRC all day and finds what Wikipedia users "want")), he now spends his golden years unleashing anger in public IRC channels, and then having his rage elevated once he realizes people may remember his words and/or actions.
Ironholds later deleted his userpage because of this article.
With IRC logs, dox, illustrations, &c.
Why would anyone in their right mind employ someone with Aspergers in a community liaison role?
It's a perennial question.
Goes to the heart of the matter.
When your human resource acquisition is broken, everything else will follow.
I received and read your email. I'll respect your wish to keep off-wiki the pages you linked to in your email, and won't discuss them here, but will reply to the email instead. But I want to make these comments (unrelated to the email) publicly, because I think they are important:
Your email does not address the fact that you continued to make inappropriate comments right up to the recent past; this cannot be explained away by your age at the time. Look at the IRC logs on Meta, for 2011 and 2012 and 2013, do a text search for "Ironholds", and show me one comment that is appropriate for a representative of WMF or WP to make.
In my opinion, in this instance promising to change is inadequate. Do you understand the damage to attracting and retaining editors when someone can point to your recent IRC posts and say "this person represents WMF and WP"? A better way to do this would be to resign, change your ways, and then re-apply sometime in the future.
You have never addressed my point that you are not in a position to lecture other people about their behavior, or block them for their behavior. That is what led to my involvement in this, and since I've done as you asked and engaged with you here, I'd like to see your reply to that, please.
* Please look at your response to Question 11 in WP:Requests for adminship/Ironholds 5. Is that still true?
* I note that you said in WP:Requests for adminship/Ironholds 3 and WP:Requests for adminship/Ironholds 4 you'd be open to recall, and acknowledged that the way things are, we could only take you at your word on that. Is that still true?
* I've re-read the comments by the Arbs in the current ArbCom case, and am beginning to see that having you desysopped - which is what I think would be best for the Encyclopedia - is going to be difficult. I'll concede you are well connected politically, and that this matters to many of the Arbs.
* So that you understand my POV very clearly: If I can't appeal to your sense of honor, then probably all hope is lost; I doubt you can be involuntarily removed or desysopped. So my only hope is that you do have a sense of honor, and to convince you that resigning is the honorable thing to do. I'm pretty much done doing that, too. I'll wait to see what the results are.
--Floquenbeam (talk) 20:25, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
Hard to argue with this.
Time to find out if Oliver Keyes has either commodity.
Makes me wonder what Oliver thinks he's got on those mysterious pages.
Re: Down with Ironholds?
Posted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 6:34 pm
by Malleus
Vigilant wrote:
Malleus wrote:
Mancunium wrote:ED up for me, and the Ironholds page still being edited by Hipcrime aka Badmachine: link
"I'm Autistic, having Aspergers Syndrome, i have an IQ of 145, an Eidetic memory to do with sounds and am lucky enough to suffer from Bipolar disorder."
—Ironholds, suffering all the diseases that come from too much Wikipedia
Oliver Keyes (going by the street handle "Ironholds"), is the pimp-daddy of TOW and Freenode, scoring every bitch that dares chat in his vicinity of e-masculinity. His lifetime dream already being accomplished (becoming "Community Liaison, Product Development" for the Wikimedia Foundation (it means he sits in IRC all day and finds what Wikipedia users "want")), he now spends his golden years unleashing anger in public IRC channels, and then having his rage elevated once he realizes people may remember his words and/or actions.
Ironholds later deleted his userpage because of this article.
With IRC logs, dox, illustrations, &c.
Why would anyone in their right mind employ someone with Aspergers in a community liaison role?
It's a perennial question.
Goes to the heart of the matter.
When your human resource acquisition is broken, everything else will follow.
Reminds me a little Newyorkbrad's perennial support of children at RfA as appearing "mature". I've yet to see a child at RfA he didn't think was mature, although by definition none of them are.
I received and read your email. I'll respect your wish to keep off-wiki the pages you linked to in your email, and won't discuss them here, but will reply to the email instead. But I want to make these comments (unrelated to the email) publicly, because I think they are important:
Your email does not address the fact that you continued to make inappropriate comments right up to the recent past; this cannot be explained away by your age at the time. Look at the IRC logs on Meta, for 2011 and 2012 and 2013, do a text search for "Ironholds", and show me one comment that is appropriate for a representative of WMF or WP to make.
In my opinion, in this instance promising to change is inadequate. Do you understand the damage to attracting and retaining editors when someone can point to your recent IRC posts and say "this person represents WMF and WP"? A better way to do this would be to resign, change your ways, and then re-apply sometime in the future.
You have never addressed my point that you are not in a position to lecture other people about their behavior, or block them for their behavior. That is what led to my involvement in this, and since I've done as you asked and engaged with you here, I'd like to see your reply to that, please.
* Please look at your response to Question 11 in WP:Requests for adminship/Ironholds 5. Is that still true?
* I note that you said in WP:Requests for adminship/Ironholds 3 and WP:Requests for adminship/Ironholds 4 you'd be open to recall, and acknowledged that the way things are, we could only take you at your word on that. Is that still true?
* I've re-read the comments by the Arbs in the current ArbCom case, and am beginning to see that having you desysopped - which is what I think would be best for the Encyclopedia - is going to be difficult. I'll concede you are well connected politically, and that this matters to many of the Arbs.
* So that you understand my POV very clearly: If I can't appeal to your sense of honor, then probably all hope is lost; I doubt you can be involuntarily removed or desysopped. So my only hope is that you do have a sense of honor, and to convince you that resigning is the honorable thing to do. I'm pretty much done doing that, too. I'll wait to see what the results are.
--Floquenbeam (talk) 20:25, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
Hard to argue with this.
Time to find out if Oliver Keyes has either commodity.
My money's on a resounding "No".
Re: Down with Ironholds?
Posted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 8:51 pm
by Poetlister
Malleus wrote:Why would anyone in their right mind employ someone with Aspergers in a community liaison role?
They might argue that to refuse to employ someone on those grounds would be to discriminate against the handicapped - sorry, differently abled - which is politically incorrect.
Re: Down with Ironholds?
Posted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 8:54 pm
by Zoloft
Outsider wrote:
Malleus wrote:Why would anyone in their right mind employ someone with Aspergers in a community liaison role?
They might argue that to refuse to employ someone on those grounds would be to discriminate against the handicapped - sorry, differently abled - which is politically incorrect.
I do believe 'reasonable accommodation' in most such legislation allows you to exclude people who are horribly unsuited for the role. NBA teams don't have to hire midgets as power forwards, for example.
Re: Down with Ironholds?
Posted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 8:56 pm
by Vigilant
Outsider wrote:
Malleus wrote:Why would anyone in their right mind employ someone with Aspergers in a community liaison role?
They might argue that to refuse to employ someone on those grounds would be to discriminate against the handicapped - sorry, differently abled - which is politically incorrect.
Do you hire a person with no arms to be on your rowing team?
Do you hire someone with Asperger's to talk to customers?
No to both.
On the other hand...
Perhaps Oliver Keyes could find his missing half.
Here's an advertising segment that I've found for poor Oliver.
Re: Down with Ironholds?
Posted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 8:57 pm
by Vigilant
Zoloft wrote:
Outsider wrote:
Malleus wrote:Why would anyone in their right mind employ someone with Aspergers in a community liaison role?
They might argue that to refuse to employ someone on those grounds would be to discriminate against the handicapped - sorry, differently abled - which is politically incorrect.
I do believe 'reasonable accommodation' in most such legislation allows you to exclude people who are horribly unsuited for the role. NBA teams don't have to hire midgets as power forwards, for example.
They do if they're the Wikimedia Foundation!!!
Re: Down with Ironholds?
Posted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 9:06 pm
by Zoloft
*scribbles down idea for Additional characters in 'The Wizard of Oz'
Dorothy meets The Capybara, a rodent of unusual size. After an awkward encounter with Toto, in which The Capybara mumbles something about lighting the small dog on fire, Dorothy suggests petitioning The Wizard for 'a sense of propriety.' The Capybara suggests that if he stabbed Dorothy in the windpipe, he wouldn't have to listen to her preaching any more. The Cowardly Lion sits on The Capybara.
Re: Down with Ironholds?
Posted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 9:08 pm
by Wer900
Vigilant wrote:
Zoloft wrote:
Outsider wrote:
Malleus wrote:Why would anyone in their right mind employ someone with Aspergers in a community liaison role?
They might argue that to refuse to employ someone on those grounds would be to discriminate against the handicapped - sorry, differently abled - which is politically incorrect.
I do believe 'reasonable accommodation' in most such legislation allows you to exclude people who are horribly unsuited for the role. NBA teams don't have to hire midgets as power forwards, for example.
They do if they're the Wikimedia Foundation!!!
Wikimedia hiring process:
Find someone who is a "rising star" on Wikipedia noticeboards, requests for comment, or Teh IRC™.
Observe their power plays, watch them participate in Arbitration Committee cases that should not be of their concern.
Watch as they become an administrator, having gained the trust of Teh Communitah™ to do nothing about the status quo.
See if they continue to participate on the noticeboards and Teh IRC™, and if they are still involved in Teh Communitah.™
Entice them to come of Wikimedia, Wiknics, and other events attended primarily by members of Teh Communitah™.
Ensure that they have no skills whatsoever for the job in which they will be placed.
Hire them!
Re: Down with Ironholds?
Posted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 9:44 pm
by Malleus
Wer900 wrote:
Vigilant wrote:
Zoloft wrote:
Outsider wrote:
Malleus wrote:Why would anyone in their right mind employ someone with Aspergers in a community liaison role?
They might argue that to refuse to employ someone on those grounds would be to discriminate against the handicapped - sorry, differently abled - which is politically incorrect.
I do believe 'reasonable accommodation' in most such legislation allows you to exclude people who are horribly unsuited for the role. NBA teams don't have to hire midgets as power forwards, for example.
They do if they're the Wikimedia Foundation!!!
Wikimedia hiring process:
Find someone who is a "rising star" on Wikipedia noticeboards, requests for comment, or Teh IRC™.
Observe their power plays, watch them participate in Arbitration Committee cases that should not be of their concern.
Watch as they become an administrator, having gained the trust of Teh Communitah™ to do nothing about the status quo.
See if they continue to participate on the noticeboards and Teh IRC™, and if they are still involved in Teh Communitah.™
Entice them to come of Wikimedia, Wiknics, and other events attended primarily by members of Teh Communitah™.
Ensure that they have no skills whatsoever for the job in which they will be placed.
Hire them!
That seems to be rather too close to the truth for comfort.
Re: Down with Ironholds?
Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 4:02 pm
by Vigilant
Can anyone point me to a public apology by Oliver Keyes?
I see him referring to one in the ARBCOM base, but I cannot actually find one.
Re: Down with Ironholds?
Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 7:25 pm
by neved
Vigilant wrote:Can anyone point me to a public apology by Oliver Keyes?
I see him referring to one in the ARBCOM base, but I cannot actually find one.
@Salvio: I'm sorry my apology above wasn't clear enough, so let me be clear; I accept, wholeheartedly, that the joke was an inappropriate one for any user to make. Ironholds (talk) 10:21, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
Re: Down with Ironholds?
Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 7:42 pm
by Vigilant
neved wrote:
Vigilant wrote:Can anyone point me to a public apology by Oliver Keyes?
I see him referring to one in the ARBCOM base, but I cannot actually find one.
@Salvio: I'm sorry my apology above wasn't clear enough, so let me be clear; I accept, wholeheartedly, that the joke was an inappropriate one for any user to make. Ironholds (talk) 10:21, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
Malleus wrote:Why would anyone in their right mind employ someone with Aspergers in a community liaison role?
They might argue that to refuse to employ someone on those grounds would be to discriminate against the handicapped - sorry, differently abled - which is politically incorrect.
I do believe 'reasonable accommodation' in most such legislation allows you to exclude people who are horribly unsuited for the role. NBA teams don't have to hire midgets as power forwards, for example.
They do if they're the Wikimedia Foundation!!!
Wikimedia hiring process:
Find someone who is a "rising star" on Wikipedia noticeboards, requests for comment, or Teh IRC™.
Observe their power plays, watch them participate in Arbitration Committee cases that should not be of their concern.
Watch as they become an administrator, having gained the trust of Teh Communitah™ to do nothing about the status quo.
See if they continue to participate on the noticeboards and Teh IRC™, and if they are still involved in Teh Communitah.™
Entice them to come of Wikimedia, Wiknics, and other events attended primarily by members of Teh Communitah™.
Ensure that they have no skills whatsoever for the job in which they will be placed.
Hire them!
That seems to be rather too close to the truth for comfort.
You forgot:
[6b] Make sure they are unemployed/unemployable anywhere else. (-->Loyalty forever ensured!)
Re: Down with Ironholds?
Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 10:09 pm
by Vigilant
Still, actively trying to suppress the unhappy results of the WMF's own research https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... =565073285
Someone needs to have a talk with this complete cowpat of a "Community Liaison".
ChrisO desysopped[edit]
20) ChrisO (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) has been admonished or made subject to restrictions in the course of three prior arbitration proceedings by the Arbitration Committee: Israeli apartheid case, September 2006 for abuse of administrator tools; Kosovo case, October 2006 for edit warring and rollback abuse; Scientology case, May 2009 for WP:BLP violations and inappropriate sysop actions. Combined with actions in this case, this is a long-term pattern. ChrisO is desysopped as a result. ChrisO may obtain the tools back via the usual means or by request to the Arbitration Committee.
Passed 9 to 3 (with 2 abstentions) at 21:29, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
Nah, there was no cause. 'Twas just a resignation.
Sorry for the delay; I was travelling, and then recovering from travelling. So, in order:
I have just taken a look at the 2012/2013 logs on bash; using find, I can't see any examples of inappropriate commentary by myself. If you can point me to a comment there that is inappropriate, I'm happy to discuss it. If what you mean is "I looked at the GNAA logs, and" - you should be aware that they're pretty well known to be deliberately falsified. See ArbCom's attitude towards them.
I certainly do understand the possible damage; see the section below. What led to your involvement in this was me saying that a comment by another editor was potentially inappropriate, unless contextually justified. Hypocricy is "one rule for me, one rule for [every/someone] else"; I don't think I've made any bones about the fact that my prior commentary was inappropriate, so I'm not quite sure why you identify it as hypocricy. Nor do I think I ever said anything about blocks.
Yep.
Yes, certainly. Having said that I don't seem to have a recall mechanism, and so I'm not sure how community demand would be demonstrated.
I consider myself an honourable person, even when dealing with dishonourable individuals, or otherwise honourable ones taking dishonourable actions - and make no mistake, I consider your perpetuation of a conversation started via email a dishonourable action. If you think you've eliminated the reasons for having it via email, you're wrong.
An honourable person has a lot of traits; one of them is that they respect their leaders and the people with authority over them, and that's what I do. I, in the heat of the moment, am not the best person to identify the costs and benefits of having me around in a position of responsibility in the community or at the Foundation - community and Foundation leaders are.
In regards to my Foundation role, I sat down with Sue on Friday, explained the situation to her and made clear that if she asked for my resignation, I would provide it. Not happily, because I enjoy the work I do, but not grudgingly, either; Sue's job is, amongst other things, to keep an eye on public perception. If she wants me gone, she's better-qualified to decide I'm a risk than I am. She accepted my statements, and actively refused to permit me to resign. From my point of view, I've taken the honourable action, there: accepting that there are areas others are more qualified in than me, and relying on them for navigation in those fields.
In regards to my community role, the same process applies; reach out to the appropriate arbiter and see what they say. In this case, that's the arbitration committee: they are the supreme body for dealing with user conduct issues, they are community elected, and community approved. I'm disappointed to see you accuse them of, essentially, being scared, because they haven't immediately rushed out screaming "BURN THE WITCH" - which is apparently your preferred outcome. They aren't bowing to politics, they're applying policy - both arbitration policy, which the community actively endorsed, and elements of both arbitration precedent and project-wide policy since 2007. If they decide policy extends to the point where I can be sanctioned, I'm okay with that. If they don't, they don't. But either way, I've not seen any evidence they're driving in the direction they want due to politics. If they were, the case would simply never have been accepted.
I appreciate you're likely to find both these answers and the thinking behind them unsatisfactory. Nevertheless, I thought it best to be transparent. Ironholds(T-C-L) (talk) 8:07 pm, Today
Are you alleging that any of the logs in which you are cited have been fabricated?
Which ones?
Why have not the other participants in those chats come forth and said that such logs cannot represent the truth?
You should be aware that resigning your position may have consequences for your eligibility for unemployment benefits, particularly in the USA. Why not ask that your title be renamed to something like "Assistant Director for Special Projects" (which would not suggest that you be representing Wikipedia editors)?
Someone should ask him, straight up, if he did write those things.
He's a slippery, slimy type of character who refuses to answer the allegations, preferring to dance around the issues try to impugn sources instead of directly denying that we wrote those execrable words.
Don't let this worm slip off the hook that he made for himself.
Don't let the WMF and ARBCOM look the other way.
Ask him if he wrote those things.
When that question is answered, ask him, "Where is this apology that you reference in the ARBCOM case?" and watch the little shit squirm.
This outcome of the WMF/Sue Gardner doubling down and keeping the little turd is the best thing, ever!
They know he screwed up, but they can't STAND the idea of "caving to the fuckheads at WO", so they kept him and are making semi-public statements of support.
ARBCOM has, once again, demonstrated that there are one set of rules for admins and another, harsher set for mere editors by framing the case to disallow widely reported IRC comments by Oliver Keyes in an obvious attempt to slant the outcome of the case in favor of a WMF employee and admin.
We have widespread dissatisfaction with the VisualEnema and AuntFlow which, despite the wishes of the editors, is being jammed down their throats, bugs and all.
They know this guy is damaged beyond repair.
They can be reasonably sure he's going to do something else stupid in the near future. Tenterhooks aplenty in WMFville.
They can see that he's been rude, in his official capacity as community liaison, to editors reporting dissatisfaction with the new "projects".
They can see he's tried to hide the results of a research project that showed VisualEnema in a poor light with respect ot the WMF's stated goals of preventing editor flight.
It goes on and on and on and on.
I couldn't have scripted this better if I'd tried.
I can't WAIT to see what happens when they hire Sue's replacement.
Re: Down with Ironholds?
Posted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 11:17 pm
by Vigilant
That's gonna leave a mark.
I have been taking a much-needed (and much enjoyed) break from Wikipedia this week, but I feel compelled to log back in here and comment due to your rather surprising characterization of Floquenbeam as having acted dishonorably. I saw the thread on AN in which Drmies posted a good-natured "happy birthday" note to a friend, and I must say that the reaction to it has appalled me. If you thought Drmies' comment was inappropriately familiar, you should have contacted him privately, via email, or at the least on the relative privacy of his talk page, to express your concerns, rather than shaming him on a widely trafficked noticeboard. I'm surprised it needed to be pointed out that, as a subject of an ArbCom case regarding inappropriate commentary about other editors, you'd be mistaken to think it wise to opine on the appropriateness of the commentary of another editor in such a fashion. Floquenbeam was absolutely right to point this out, and I'm disappointed that your response to him was not of the "OK, I see the problem" variety. 28bytes (talk) 20:30, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
Listen up, Oliver.
It's not just us at WO who can see you for the gigantic, gaping asshole that you are.
Re: Down with Ironholds?
Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 7:52 pm
by Kiefer.Wolfowitz
Kiefer.Wolfowitz wrote:
Kiefer.Wolfowitz wrote:
Vigilant wrote:
The Devil's Advocate wrote:It seems they are going to accept it as an "Ironholds and Kiefer" case, with the emphasis being on-wiki evidence. Seems designed for a certain outcome as Ironholds is more tempered about what he says on-wiki, where he is more liable to end up in trouble.
[Giano] seems to have seen through this bullshit pretty well.
I'm not going to waste my time with dishonest men that claim that they can hear a case on the basis of a 2011 RfC/U and that they want to have a broad discussion of all actions by the parties and then don't allow me to discuss others.
I can verify 1, 2 and 4 as quotations of mine. 3, I cannot remember in the slightest.
"The IRC chat"? The conversation in which each quote is found...? In the case of those from bash, well, the bash context is as good as you're likely to get, particularly with early quotes (many changeovers mean my machine's logs are, at best, spotty). In any case, I'm highly uncomfortable answering this question. The drafting arbitrators have made clear that this is an arbitration case concerning our behaviour, not concerning the nature of IRC or the behaviour of anyone else. Ironholds (talk) 22:41, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
That's a blind question; I don't know the number of logs posted at different etc, etc, nor the specific ones you're referring to. If you've submitted them to the Arbitration Committee confidentially as evidence, as they require, I haven't been forwarded them. In regards to the comments themselves, see my answer here. Ironholds (talk) 22:41, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
How about the various fantasies of physical violence that you've uttered on IRC over the years?
Oliver,
Have you yet begun to realize what a legal liability you are to the WMF?
You're a boat anchor if anything happens.
Imagine that someone at the WMF headquarters files a sexual harassment suit not involving you.
During discovery, these intemperate remarks of yours are discovered.
With all you've done, creating a case for "hostile workplace environment" is a pretty easy to make.
Looking through Ironholds recent activity, I have not found on-wiki actions which are problematic. He has recognised his actions off-wiki are inappropriate and has committed to improvement.
Thoughts on off-wiki activity
The framing of the case is so very stupid.
Both parties of this case have acted inappropriately at off-wiki venues. Had they made similar comments on-wiki, it would have led to blocks or bans for each party.
One is an admin and employee of the WMF. Aren't they supposed to be hold to a higher standard of conduct?
Shouldn't their get out of jail card have already been used up?
IRC is a real time chat and it is (theoretically) not logged, comments cannot be edited, people are likely to make comments in the heat of the moment. It is "legitimised" by Wikipedia pages dedicated to the service, such as WP:IRC. Wikipediocracy is an forum focussed on Wikipedia and editor criticism, where comments made can be edited or removed but are otherwise published and searchable. Neither are under the control of Wikipedia, but both can be considered parasitic as they both influence community members on Wikipedia and neither would exist if Wikipedia did not.
IRC is where wikipedia SENDS people to conduct official WMF business.
They have meetings there.
When you have an official WMF sponsored meeting on WO, then we can talk. Until then, you're lying by omission and you know it.
This is the slimiest ARBCOM case I've ever seen.
You all should be terribly ashamed of yourselves.
Re: Down with Ironholds?
Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 4:13 pm
by HRIP7
Parasitic? You could perhaps argue that Wikipedia is parasitic of published sources (for without them, Wikipedia would not exist), but if we are parasites, then every writer, reporter, watchdog group or discussion forum dedicated to any topic at all is a parasite.
Typical narcissistic nonsense from someone for whom Wikipedia seems to be the centre of the universe.
Re: Down with Ironholds?
Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 4:37 pm
by DanMurphy
HRIP7 wrote:Parasitic? You could perhaps argue that Wikipedia is parasitic of published sources (for without them, Wikipedia would not exist), but if we are parasites, then every writer, reporter, watchdog group or discussion forum dedicated to any topic at all is a parasite.
Typical narcissistic nonsense from someone for whom Wikipedia seems to be the centre of the universe.
I think this is the parasite that Wikipediocracy most resembles.
Re: Down with Ironholds?
Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 6:15 pm
by Hex
IRC is a symbiote of Wikipedia, not a parasite.
Re: Down with Ironholds?
Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 6:20 pm
by Vigilant
Hex wrote:IRC is a symbiote of Wikipedia, not a parasite.
Laid out right in front of the community, the ARBCOM members have committed this fallacy to allow them cover to decide what they want to decide in defiance of the facts of the situation.
Re: Down with Ironholds?
Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 9:46 pm
by Hex
Unrelated to current goings-on, just thought I'd share:
16:00 < Ironholds> Peter-C: shooting is fun. Swimming.
16:01 < Peter-C> Ah, shooting.
16:01 < Peter-C> A mans sport. Sadly I have gun laws where I am. Very very strict ones.
16:01 < Peter-C> They do not allow you to have a gun if you are a civilian.
16:01 < Peter-C> You also have a max of 15 bullets in a mag even thought you can reload a gun fast...
16:01 -!- James_F|Away is now known as James_F
16:02 < mysterytrey> 15 bullets is good in a mag.
16:02 < Ironholds> Peter-C: where the fuck ARE you?
16:02 < Peter-C> New Jersey
16:02 < Peter-C> mysterytrey - LOL
16:03 < Ironholds> Peter-C: uh. they let civillians have guns in New Jersey
16:03 < Peter-C> Dude. In EVERY other state (except NY) you have no limit
16:03 < Peter-C> Rarly.
16:03 < Ironholds> they don't let lunatics have guns, and told you it was "civilians" to make you feel happy
16:03 < Peter-C>
16:03 < Peter-C> I can only get pussy ass pistols
16:03 < Peter-C>
16:03 < mysterytrey> Peter-C: Your 16. Can 16 year olds even /buy/ guns?
16:03 < Peter-C> No
16:03 < Ironholds> *you're
16:03 < Peter-C> But the permit is $1
16:04 < mareklug> they likely don't let 15yo have guns. well, maybe bb guns
16:04 < Ironholds> Peter-C I have, in New Jersey, fired semi-automatic weaponry
16:04 < Ironholds> so have Fluffernutter, James_F and mindspillage
16:04 < Ironholds> tell me again how civilians aren't allowed guns
16:04 < Fluffernutter> quite
16:04 < James_F> In the UK kids can have gun licences.
16:04 < Ironholds> Fluffernutter: that's James_F's line
16:04 * Fluffernutter hands line back to James_F
16:04 < Peter-C> Ironholds - Who was it owned by?
16:04 < Ironholds> James_F: as the saying goes, if only children can have guns, all the guns will be owned by...people acting like children? Wait, that's not it.
16:05 < James_F> ISTR the press getting worked up a couple of years ago about a 12-year-old having a shotgun licence.
16:05 < Ironholds> Peter-C: Fluffernutter's dad.
16:05 < Peter-C> Fluffernutter - how does your dad have a gun
16:05 < Peter-C> I want one <3
16:05 < Ironholds> Peter-C: he's got like a dozen, dude. Again, they let civilians have guns. They just won't let you have guns, for the SAKE of the civilians
16:05 < Fluffernutter> what do you mean how? he got a license and gave a gun seller money
16:06 < Ironholds> Fluffernutter: Peter-C is convinced that in NJ, only the armed forces can possess firepower
16:06 < Peter-C> The internet lied to me.
Fr33kman, you really are a fucking moron. How the hell did you ever get any kind of technical privileges? "simple English Wikipedia" does not translate as "Wikipedia for English simpletons". 80.177.10.254 (talk) 11:39, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
Here he modifies a post by Ottava on his user talk
(corrections)
... after being shown to be an astounding cunt, and I will be gone for at least the duration of finishing my real life work - or until I decide that my return will get me, the gawping narcissistic camera-slut that I am, sufficient attention.
Fr33kman, you really are a fucking moron. How the hell did you ever get any kind of technical privileges? "simple English Wikipedia" does not translate as "Wikipedia for English simpletons". 80.177.10.254 (talk) 11:39, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
Here he modifies a post by Ottava on his user talk
(corrections)
... after being shown to be an astounding cunt, and I will be gone for at least the duration of finishing my real life work - or until I decide that my return will get me, the gawping narcissistic camera-slut that I am, sufficient attention.
That's totally outrageous. Does Ottava know this? It's unquestionably Keyes (there are other diffs that prove the identity). Keyes has usurped Ottava's identity by modifying his edits, in a fantastically puerile way that you only see in common vandals, moreover on his own talk page. This is a big Wikipedia no-no. Unbelievable.
Fr33kman, you really are a fucking moron. How the hell did you ever get any kind of technical privileges? "simple English Wikipedia" does not translate as "Wikipedia for English simpletons". 80.177.10.254 (talk) 11:39, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
Here he modifies a post by Ottava on his user talk
(corrections)
... after being shown to be an astounding cunt, and I will be gone for at least the duration of finishing my real life work - or until I decide that my return will get me, the gawping narcissistic camera-slut that I am, sufficient attention.
That's totally outrageous. Does Ottava know this? It's unquestionably Keyes (there are other diffs that prove the identity). Keyes has usurped Ottava's identity by modifying his edits, in a fantastically puerile way that you only see in common vandals, moreover on his own talk page. This is a big Wikipedia no-no. Unbelievable.
Outrageous. The sort of thing that should find its way to the ArbCom page.
On that note, it also seems to me that a Wikipedian in good standing should question Sue Gardener about her joining in with violence against women "banter" on IRC, while pointing out Mr Keyes' other inappropriate activities.
Re: Down with Ironholds?
Posted: Sat Jul 27, 2013 8:06 am
by EricBarbour
dogbiscuit wrote:
Peter Damian wrote:That's totally outrageous. Does Ottava know this? It's unquestionably Keyes (there are other diffs that prove the identity). Keyes has usurped Ottava's identity by modifying his edits, in a fantastically puerile way that you only see in common vandals, moreover on his own talk page. This is a big Wikipedia no-no. Unbelievable.
Outrageous. The sort of thing that should find its way to the ArbCom page.
Wasting your time. Arbcom obviously doesn't give a damn anymore.
Just add it to the wiki, and someday we'll write a whole chapter about Oliver's grubby little bottom.
Or better yet, find a famous magazine writer to do it.
. Floquenbeam, if you have an issue with my conduct I invite you, as I have invited others, to discuss it with me and offer me a chance to participate in the conversation. Ironholds (T-C-L) 17:54, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
