Fram's RFA

[Vigilant]

Uh huh. So, go on, dox me then.

As you wish.

Thanks for admitting that you're perfectly happy with ARBCOM being an arbitrary, capricious political bully gang as long as the 'right' people get hurt.

[Randy from Boise]

Uh huh. So, go on, dox me then.

As you wish.

Thanks for admitting that you're perfectly happy with ARBCOM being an arbitrary, capricious political bully gang as long as the 'right' people get hurt.

I never heard him say that.

I predict we are going to have a crop of candidates in 2019 that are committed to observing correct process. We'll see. There is nothing about this fiasco that validated the secret evidence model for "harassment" complaints. It was a mega-massive shit-show and even the most clueless bureaucrat in San Francisco has to have seen that...

RfB

[Ceoil]

I don't think there will be more than one or two protest candidates.

My reading of it is that there will be some emboldened by the Fram RfA result to run as 'civility police' candidates. Which could be a bad thing. There might also be some running who have WMF/WMDC/WiR backgrounds (or similar organisations).

Its a big win for the chapters. He was largely taken down by WMFUK and DC, so a turning point for sure. Large CIV sweeping brush to follow.

[Randy from Boise]

I don't think there will be more than one or two protest candidates.

My reading of it is that there will be some emboldened by the Fram RfA result to run as 'civility police' candidates. Which could be a bad thing. There might also be some running who have WMF/WMDC/WiR backgrounds (or similar organisations).

Its a big win for the chapters. He was largely taken down by WMFUK and DC. A turning point for sure. Large sweeping brush to follow.

The Friendly Spacers got a minor win for "civility," but the big battle being fought was over their new power tool versus En-WP autonomy. That was a much, much bigger win for rationalism over PC religionism.

RfB

[Ceoil]

I don't think there will be more than one or two protest candidates.

My reading of it is that there will be some emboldened by the Fram RfA result to run as 'civility police' candidates. Which could be a bad thing. There might also be some running who have WMF/WMDC/WiR backgrounds (or similar organisations).

Its a big win for the chapters. He was largely taken down by WMFUK and DC. A turning point for sure. Large sweeping brush to follow.

The Friendly Spacers got a minor win for "civility," but the big battle being fought was over their new power tool versus En-WP autonomy. That was a much, much bigger win for rationalism over PC religionism.

RfB

Have you visited DYK in the last ten year? Fram has always been at the forefront of rationalism, as opposed to you know, falsehood \ incompetence. Its a real shame he was overwhelmed by the many people he had rightly called out over the years. Sorry to be so, you know. Its a real kick in the teeth to read the wind so clearly.

[Randy from Boise]

I don't think there will be more than one or two protest candidates.

My reading of it is that there will be some emboldened by the Fram RfA result to run as 'civility police' candidates. Which could be a bad thing. There might also be some running who have WMF/WMDC/WiR backgrounds (or similar organisations).

Its a big win for the chapters. He was largely taken down by WMFUK and DC. A turning point for sure. Large sweeping brush to follow.

The Friendly Spacers got a minor win for "civility," but the big battle being fought was over their new power tool versus En-WP autonomy. That was a much, much bigger win for rationalism over PC religionism.

RfB

Have you visited DYK in the last ten year? Fram has always been at the forefront of rationalism, as opposed to you know, falsehood \ incompetence. Its a real shame he was overwhelmed by the many people he had rightly called out over the years. Sorry to be so, you know. Its a real kick in the teeth to read the wind so clearly.

What part of monitoring the Did You Know queue requires administrator buttons?

RfB

[Midsize Jake]

Have you visited DYK in the last ten year? Fram has always been at the forefront of rationalism, as opposed to you know, falsehood \ incompetence. Its a real shame he was overwhelmed by the many people he had rightly called out over the years. Sorry to be so, you know. Its a real kick in the teeth to read the wind so clearly.

What part of monitoring the Did You Know queue requires administrator buttons?

The part where you check an article submission and quickly realize the author is violating WP:NOTLAB (or some other COI-related policy) and has to be blocked?

I tend to think Mr. Ceoil is right about this - you can't effectively (much less successfully) spearhead a reform effort centered around one of Wikipedia's most well-known features without having some clout, and now that he's no longer an admin, he won't have that clout, so he's probably going to give up on that effort.

Did you ever read his Signpost op-ed on the subject?

[Randy from Boise]

I tend to think Mr. Ceoil is right about this - you can't effectively (much less successfully) spearhead a reform effort centered around one of Wikipedia's most well-known features without having some clout, and now that he's no longer an admin, he won't have that clout, so he's probably going to give up on that effort.

Did you ever read his Signpost op-ed on the subject?

No, I didn't.

That's quite a well done piece.

t

[Vigilant]

linkhttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... on=history[/link]
Awful lot of oversighting going on there.

[Jans Hammer]

linkhttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... on=history[/link]
Awful lot of oversighting going on there.

Apparently this:

Any idea why the revdels? linkhttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title]=Wikipedia:Requests_for_adminship/Fram_2&action=history[/link]

Wugapodes' comment
"did you call the unblocked editor a pedophile"
was replaced by
"did you <redacted>"
linkhttps://web.archive.org/web/20190927132 ... hip/Fram_2[/link]

It is worth screwing up the history of a very popular RfA for that. /sarc

Can the single offending edit not be removed?

The same text will be in all the revisions after it until it's removed, so removing the single edit won't be any use at all.

[Poetlister]

Or, would that mean this whole deal was a one-off to appease LauraHale (and maybe a handful of others), and give the WMF a nice public "win" in the never-ending battle against the sexist 85% male en.wiki majority? If so, what's going to happen the next time they need a "win"?

I think that most people here realise that T&S would probably not have acted the way it did had LH not had such an influential friend. Do we know of any other problematic editor who is remotely so well connected with the WMF?

[Poetlister]

Uh huh. So, go on, dox me then.

As you wish.

Thanks for admitting that you're perfectly happy with ARBCOM being an arbitrary, capricious political bully gang as long as the 'right' people get hurt.

Lots of people here seem to be happy to see Fram desysopped because they don't like him, regardless of the merits of the LH case.

[eagle]

Or, would that mean this whole deal was a one-off to appease LauraHale (and maybe a handful of others), and give the WMF a nice public "win" in the never-ending battle against the sexist 85% male en.wiki majority? If so, what's going to happen the next time they need a "win"?

I think that most people here realise that T&S would probably not have acted the way it did had LH not had such an influential friend. Do we know of any other problematic editor who is remotely so well connected with the WMF?

Your question deserves an answer. However, in order to give you a complete answer, I would need a list of all of Mr. Wales' liaisons at Wikimania and other conferences and speaking engagements from across the years. You may PM your list to me. Thank you in advance for your consideration.

[Randy from Boise]

linkhttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... on=history[/link]
Awful lot of oversighting going on there.

Apparently this:

Any idea why the revdels? linkhttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title]=Wikipedia:Requests_for_adminship/Fram_2&action=history[/link]

Wugapodes' comment
"did you call the unblocked editor a pedophile"
was replaced by
"did you <redacted>"
linkhttps://web.archive.org/web/20190927132 ... hip/Fram_2[/link]

It is worth screwing up the history of a very popular RfA for that. /sarc

Can the single offending edit not be removed?

The same text will be in all the revisions after it until it's removed, so removing the single edit won't be any use at all.

Over at Sucks, Guido den Broeder indicates that his longtime enemy Fram had talked about him, defaming him as a pedophile.

I'm pleased that Fram calling me a pedophile is what brought him down. It would be even nicer if I get unblocked now. Any admin can do this.

I'm not sure if Guido is Dutch, but Fram is a Dutch-speaking Belgian, and Drmies is a Dutch ex-pat, so there might be a backstory here from another wiki.

RfB

[Jans Hammer]

Is there the slightest chance that we could all agree to be civil in both? There are some here (you know who you are) who will immediately call the the WMF a bunch of pedophile telemarketer Nazi bedwetters, which is unlikely to have a positive result. --[[User:Guy Macon|Guy Macon]] ([[User talk:Guy Macon|talk]]) 14:16, 28 September 2019 (UTC)
linkhttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... =918406767[/link]
(redacted by BBb23)

[Osborne]

bunch of pedophile telemarketer Nazi bedwetters

Guy is losing it... not his sense of humor, that's all right , but his mental balance and social status.
https://web.archive.org/web/20190928174 ... =918406767

[Poetlister]

I'm not sure if Guido is Dutch, but Fram is a Dutch-speaking Belgian, and Drmies is a Dutch ex-pat, so there might be a backstory here from another wiki.

RfB

Belgians get annoyed if you say they are Dutch-speaking. They speak Flemish. It's like calling Macedonians Bulgarian-speaking, an attack on their national identity.

[Midsize Jake]

Over at Sucks, Guido den Broeder indicates that his longtime enemy Fram had talked about him, defaming him as a pedophile.

I'm pleased that Fram calling me a pedophile is what brought him down. It would be even nicer if I get unblocked now. Any admin can do this.

FFS... If we ever put together a soccer team, someone remind me that he has to stay out of our defensive third, because apparently all he knows how to do is kick it into his own goal.

[Vigilant]

I"m drinking from the firehose on US politics and the most current hot spot, the Ukraine calls, and I'm struck by just how many comparisons can be directly drawn between the corrupt GOP behavior and the wikirati.

If I'm casting a movie, Goldenring plays Michael Cohen.

[Ceoil]

I"m drinking from the firehose on US politics and the most current hot spot, the Ukraine calls, and I'm struck by just how many comparisons can be directly drawn between the corrupt GOP behavior and the wikirati.

If I'm casting a movie, Goldenring plays Michael Cohen.

I can think of a few candidates to play Giuliani.

[Osborne]

I"m drinking from the firehose on US politics and the most current hot spot, the Ukraine calls, and I'm struck by just how many comparisons can be directly drawn between the corrupt GOP behavior and the wikirati.
If I'm casting a movie, Goldenring plays Michael Cohen.

And this comes here how?

[Ada Sinn]

What struck me as weird during this RFA was some people opposing with saying something like "Fram should've never been desysopped. It was a gross injustice but well, here we are, and I don't like him, so oppose". I guess opportunism is always alive and well.

[Vigilant]

I"m drinking from the firehose on US politics and the most current hot spot, the Ukraine calls, and I'm struck by just how many comparisons can be directly drawn between the corrupt GOP behavior and the wikirati.
If I'm casting a movie, Goldenring plays Michael Cohen.

And this comes here how?

Congruent corrupt bureaucracies that resulted in bad decisions and tainted the pool for others.

[Randy from Boise]

I'm not sure if Guido is Dutch, but Fram is a Dutch-speaking Belgian, and Drmies is a Dutch ex-pat, so there might be a backstory here from another wiki.

RfB

Belgians get annoyed if you say they are Dutch-speaking. They speak Flemish. It's like calling Macedonians Bulgarian-speaking, an attack on their national identity.

"Dutch-speaking" was Fram's self-description. Thanks for the tip on "Flemish" though.

RfB

On Sucks, Guido confirms that Fram writes Dutch, not Flemish — the latter said by the impeccable reliable source Wikipedia to be a name given to any of several specific regional Dutch dialects.

Flemish (T-H-L)

RfB

[Randy from Boise]

What struck me as weird during this RFA was some people opposing with saying something like "Fram should've never been desysopped. It was a gross injustice but well, here we are, and I don't like him, so oppose". I guess opportunism is always alive and well.

When you get a do-over on an Administrator grandfathered from the No Big Deal days who wouldn't pass a RFA today if he paid 50 people 500 Euros each to vote for him, you take it.

This was not a matter of great principle after WMF was defeated. Practical politics.

RfB

[10920]

The WMF was not defeated. Repeating it doesn't make it true.

[Randy from Boise]

The WMF was not defeated. Repeating it doesn't make it true.

You'd be surprised what the power of positive thinking can accomplish.

RfB

[DHeyward]

The WMF was not defeated. Repeating it doesn't make it true.

Perhaps but Hale is gone and Fram remains. That's a spectacular fail for the group with the name "Trust and Safety." I would venture to say both Hale and Fram would agree on that point.

[Midsize Jake]

The WMF was not defeated. Repeating it doesn't make it true.

You'd be surprised what the power of positive thinking can accomplish.

It can accomplish positive delusionalism...?

This is still Wikipedia we're talking about, so the word that applies here is thwarted, as in, "the WMF was merely thwarted." In a tactical/strategic scenario like this, "defeated" requires an admission of defeat, and if possible, a promise not to repeat the aggression. It's obviously not like a shooting war, where you defeat the other side by physically destroying their armed forces, or even a cyberwar where you defeat them by infecting their servers, stealing their data and knocking them offline for a while. You might even be confusing this with some sort of terrorist incident, like a bomb-threat situation where the terrorist only has one bomb and is "defeated" if the bomb fails to go off (and it did go off I might add - it just didn't bring down the building.)

Personally, I wouldn't say they'd been "defeated" even if Fram had gotten his admin rights back. All of their aggression-capacity is intact. What's more, you don't even want them to think they've been defeated, because then they'll feel even more justified when they either do it again or do something worse.

Thankfully, war analogies are not really my forté - I've always tried to be more of a "silly aphorisms" guy.

[Poetlister]

What struck me as weird during this RFA was some people opposing with saying something like "Fram should've never been desysopped. It was a gross injustice but well, here we are, and I don't like him, so oppose". I guess opportunism is always alive and well.

Yes, in all this long saga it has been impossible to disentangle Fram's general conduct from the specific issue of his interaction with LH which (as far as we know) lay behind the WMF decision. It may well be that Fram deserved what he got because of his general conduct. It is unlikely that he was fairly treated by the WMF. He may also, on the merits of the particular case, have been treated unfairly by Arbcom. Of course, we may never know the full story.

[Randy from Boise]

The WMF was not defeated. Repeating it doesn't make it true.

You'd be surprised what the power of positive thinking can accomplish.

This is still Wikipedia we're talking about, so the word that applies here is thwarted, as in, "the WMF was merely thwarted." * * *
Thankfully, war analogies are not really my forté - I've always tried to be more of a "silly aphorisms" guy.

"Them WMF cornpones have been shown that their new SuperControl™ dog don't hunt."

RfB

[Jans Hammer]

The WMF was not defeated. Repeating it doesn't make it true.

You'd be surprised what the power of positive thinking can accomplish.

This is still Wikipedia we're talking about, so the word that applies here is thwarted, as in, "the WMF was merely thwarted." * * *
Thankfully, war analogies are not really my forté - I've always tried to be more of a "silly aphorisms" guy.

"Them WMF cornpones have been shown that their new SuperControl™ dog don't hunt."

RfB

"Don't flatter yourself, Starling. That was a long time ago. Why would I hold that against you? Besides, this town is full of cornpone country pussy."

[Mason]

TenPoundHammer (T-C-L) was a complete jerk. He changed.

When did he do that?

[Randy from Boise]

TenPoundHammer (T-C-L) was a complete jerk. He changed.

When did he do that?

You think he hasn't?

When's the last time he was at AN/I?

RfB

[10920]

The WMF was not defeated. Repeating it doesn't make it true.

You'd be surprised what the power of positive thinking can accomplish.

It can accomplish positive delusionalism...?

This is still Wikipedia we're talking about, so the word that applies here is thwarted, as in, "the WMF was merely thwarted." In a tactical/strategic scenario like this, "defeated" requires an admission of defeat, and if possible, a promise not to repeat the aggression.

Exactly what I've been saying.

[Randy from Boise]

The WMF was not defeated. Repeating it doesn't make it true.

You'd be surprised what the power of positive thinking can accomplish.

It can accomplish positive delusionalism...?

This is still Wikipedia we're talking about, so the word that applies here is thwarted, as in, "the WMF was merely thwarted." In a tactical/strategic scenario like this, "defeated" requires an admission of defeat, and if possible, a promise not to repeat the aggression.

Exactly what I've been saying.

One can lose a war without ever admitting that one has lost a war. (See: United States in Vietnam).

Stick a fork in SuperControl.™ But WMF will be back with their next shitty idea soon.

RfB

[Vigilant]

The WMF was not defeated. Repeating it doesn't make it true.

You'd be surprised what the power of positive thinking can accomplish.

It can accomplish positive delusionalism...?

This is still Wikipedia we're talking about, so the word that applies here is thwarted, as in, "the WMF was merely thwarted." In a tactical/strategic scenario like this, "defeated" requires an admission of defeat, and if possible, a promise not to repeat the aggression.

Exactly what I've been saying.

One can lose a war without ever admitting that one has lost a war. (See: United States in Vietnam).

Stick a fork in SuperControl.™ But WMF will be back with their next shitty idea soon.

RfB

The people on Trust and Safety haven't been changed.
The weapon hasn't been taken.
There's no way it won't happen again ... it'll just happen to someone with fewer defenders.

Bullies never change.

[Mason]

TenPoundHammer (T-C-L) was a complete jerk. He changed.

When did he do that?

You think he hasn't?

When's the last time he was at AN/I?

RfB

This is the last one I remember, but I try to steer clear of those noticeboards, so I couldn't tell you what he's been up to since.

[Jans Hammer]

TenPoundHammer (T-C-L) was a complete jerk. He changed.

When did he do that?

You think he hasn't?

When's the last time he was at AN/I?

RfB

This is the last one I remember, but I try to steer clear of those noticeboards, so I couldn't tell you what he's been up to since.

Currently asking for his XFD topic ban to be lifted linkhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia ... _III?_MCVI?[/link]

[Mason]

Currently asking for his XFD topic ban to be lifted linkhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia ... _III?_MCVI?[/link]

Yep, that's the TPH I remember.

But TPH was blocked in March, 2019 for one week for personal attacks and harassment and one of their edit summaries was "then find sources, you fucking dipshit". They were blocked for one month in April, 2019 for personal attacks and harassment, with an edit summary suppressed.

Dude makes Fram look like Mr. Rogers.

[Randy from Boise]

TenPoundHammer (T-C-L) was a complete jerk. He changed.

When did he do that?

You think he hasn't?

When's the last time he was at AN/I?

RfB

This is the last one I remember, but I try to steer clear of those noticeboards, so I couldn't tell you what he's been up to since.

Hmmm, my friend Jim has some diffs in the current AN debate from earlier this year that indicate he's still being a jackass with edit summaries.

I'll yield the point.

RfB

[Mason]

He's not an evil guy or anything - he puts in a lot of effort and I'm sure he means well - but he generates a ton more over-the-top aggression than Fram while being waaaaay less accurate about his complaints. He is very, very bad at Googling. His abuse of and hostility to newbs is well-attested.

Lucky for him that the targets of his attention do not have T&S on speed-dial like Fram's did.

[Poetlister]

He's not an evil guy or anything - he puts in a lot of effort and I'm sure he means well - but he generates a ton more over-the-top aggression than Fram while being waaaaay less accurate about his complaints. He is very, very bad at Googling. His abuse of and hostility to newbs is well-attested.

Lucky for him that the targets of his attention do not have T&S on speed-dial like Fram's did.

I think that maybe he has changed to a different sort of jerk, but it isn't a change significantly for the better.

[ShinkawaGirl]

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... on=history
Why were the last 64 visions suppressed ?

The last 64 revisions of Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Fram 2 have been suppressed...
The last 64 revisions of Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Fram 2 have been suppressed. Hmmm. Can I ask why?

I looked at the "logs for the page", and didn't see anything there. Geo Swan (talk) 22:28, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

That is because suppression does not show up in the logs. You know that we cannot give the reason why it was suppressed; if you have concerns please raise them with ArbCom or the Ombudsman's Commission. Primefac (talk) 22:38, 29 September 2019 (UTC)
So first there was a secret evidence, now there is a secret suppression of revisions. Nice. - Darwinek (talk) 22:53, 29 September 2019 (UTC)
It would be useful if there were a feature allowing Oversighters the ability to redact specific bits of text from prior revisions. That way only the offending edit itself would need to be removed completely, and the others could be shown and differenced to provide full attribution. — Amakuru (talk) 22:56, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

[Ansh666]

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... on=history
Why were the last 64 visions suppressed ?

The last 64 revisions of Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Fram 2 have been suppressed...
The last 64 revisions of Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Fram 2 have been suppressed. Hmmm. Can I ask why?

I looked at the "logs for the page", and didn't see anything there. Geo Swan (talk) 22:28, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

That is because suppression does not show up in the logs. You know that we cannot give the reason why it was suppressed; if you have concerns please raise them with ArbCom or the Ombudsman's Commission. Primefac (talk) 22:38, 29 September 2019 (UTC)
So first there was a secret evidence, now there is a secret suppression of revisions. Nice. - Darwinek (talk) 22:53, 29 September 2019 (UTC)
It would be useful if there were a feature allowing Oversighters the ability to redact specific bits of text from prior revisions. That way only the offending edit itself would need to be removed completely, and the others could be shown and differenced to provide full attribution. — Amakuru (talk) 22:56, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

Explained previously in the thread:

Any idea why the revdels? linkhttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... on=history[/link]

Wugapodes' comment
"did you call the unblocked editor a pedophile"
was replaced by
"did you <redacted>"
linkhttps://web.archive.org/web/20190927132 ... hip/Fram_2[/link]

It is worth screwing up the history of a very popular RfA for that. /sarc

[Osborne]

The 2 snapshots of the unredacted Fram_2 RfA disappeared from the web archive...
https://web.archive.org/web/20190927132 ... hip/Fram_2
https://web.archive.org/web/*/https://e ... hip/Fram_2
Did this happen before?

[Randy from Boise]

The 2 snapshots of the unredacted Fram_2 RfA disappeared from the web archive...
https://web.archive.org/web/20190927132 ... hip/Fram_2
https://web.archive.org/web/*/https://e ... hip/Fram_2
Did this happen before?

WMF and Internet Archive are bedbuddies.

RfB

[Osborne]

WMF and Internet Archive are bedbuddies.

Yeah, I saw their presentation at Wikimania '19.
But I would not have thought that they are on speed dial for oversighters, nor that they would be monitoring WPO, and notice the link.

[Randy from Boise]

WMF and Internet Archive are bedbuddies.

Yeah, I saw their presentation at Wikimania '19.
But I would not have thought that they are on speed dial for oversighters, nor that they would be monitoring WPO, and notice the link.

There would seem to be some sort of automated Memory Hole bot...

In answer to the original question, I ran into something recently deleted on WP that had also been vanished from InternetArchive. I reckon that those concerned in the integrity of important historical documents should be creating pdfs and saving them offline.

RfB

[Osborne]

There would seem to be some sort of automated Memory Hole bot...
... I reckon that those concerned in the integrity of important historical documents should be creating pdfs and saving them offline.

1. web.archive periodically scanning saved *.wikipedia.org pages for being revdeleted (would be a waste of cpu and network), or the wikipedia server triggering a secret insider api of webarchive?

2. archive.today button on bookmarks bar:

Code: Select all

javascript:void(open('http://archive.today/?run=1&url='+encodeURIComponent(document.location)))