Fram's RFA

[Alex Shih]

When this RfA is over, someone needs to bring the Laura Hale/Maria Sefidari Huici case.

Maybe wait until next batch of ArbCom. The current one is incompetent and obtuse to the core. Plus according to the dumb rules, this will probably have to be another "private" case with private submissions.

[86Mookie]

Second edit of the year for Santa Claus of the Future (T-C-L) is his endorsement of Fram in the Support column.

The well is running dry...

RfB

Hey that's me! I swore off editing WP years ago, like most sane people.

[Vigilant]

Yeah, 99/99/9, not sure if I have ever seen this hahaha. This is just getting boring now, people are just taking cheap shots from years back. Hopefully this RfA makes people realize even more that you should be mingling and socialize more around Wikipedia rather than doing actual useful stuff. Yuck

Knife sharpening is what I predicted and here it is.

[Alex Shih]

Second edit of the year for Santa Claus of the Future (T-C-L) is his endorsement of Fram in the Support column.

The well is running dry...

RfB

Hey that's me! I swore off editing WP years ago, like most sane people.

Aww and these two accounts edited concurrently! [sock alert] the good news is data are stale, so even though your account 100% have been checked already, nothing will come up.

[Vigilant]

Well, this horse is dead... what happens next?

[Alex Shih]

I think Tim is right about Fram's content editing abilities though; like TRM, Fram is good at copywriting, never really about creating content. But being poor editor is a trend in the admin corps for sometime now, with all these "maintenance" folks

[10920]

Support per Iridescent. Also, anyone disliked by the massed ranks of the Wikimedia DC chapter, with their undue influence in WMF circles, can't be bad. - Sitush (talk) 00:50, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

Support (Moral). After all the feedback I am sure Fram will be much more careful not to become exasperated at users. If not, ArbCom will deal with it swiftly, and I will support them in doing so. Fram, you probably should have waited to come to RfA and been more reflective on your errors to have improved your chances. In addition, I do not like the appearance that the WMF DC Chapter is playing games. I know political tricks are fashionable in Washington, but let's not import that stuff into Wikipedia. Jehochman Talk 01:49, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

Seems like I'm not the only to see this.

Between DC and the Wicked Women in Scarlet, that's a lot of opposes.

[Vigilant]

Actually, if I'm Fram, I go down Laura Hale's article list and put up every single one that has significant errors for deletion.
Every single article that was likely done under undisclosed COI paid editing, hello paralympics...

ARBCOM has said that Fram's contributions did not deserve a ban.
Let's have more of the same then.

[Alex Shih]

Well, this horse is dead... what happens next?

Fram will be discouraged, but they will probably keep on editing but at a slower pace. Once they get adapted to no longer being an admin, I expect the pace to pick up again and I 100% guarantee they will return to jerk mode (if not dialing it up more), again, just like TRM (who also went through a phase after resigning, if I remember correctly).

[Randy from Boise]

At 9:00 pm PDT it is

99 - 100 - 9 = 50%

cf. Lawler's Law (T-H-L)

RfB

P.S. This could be the first 200+/200+ RFA in history if it runs out.

[Randy from Boise]

Actually, if I'm Fram, I go down Laura Hale's article list and put up every single one that has significant errors for deletion.

What, you think he's got that much political capital in the bank to come back from that nearly instantaneous block?

Fram needs to put his head down and get to work for a year without being a dick.

Good luck with that.

Leopard, spots.

RfB

[Osborne]

Hey that's me! I swore off editing WP years ago, like most sane people.

back. Sane people don't return, though. We all lost it at one point.

Opposing the WMF's actions and opposing Fram's RFA here are mutually exclusive.

Some people would prefer, if this was not a referendum on wmf vs community.

But being poor editor is a trend in the admin corps for sometime now, with all these "maintenance" folks

Sadly, real contribution (editing) is not valued in general, or in RfA. This has a detrimental effect, as admins have no experience in how much research and effort it takes to create quality content. As admins don't respect the work invested, editors don't respect it either, and those win the debates, who have more friends, not who worked more and harder.

Lawler's Law (T-H-L)

Damn, that redirect is not even to an anchor. Anyone to fix it?

P.S. This could be the first 200+/200+ RFA in history if it runs out.

[Randy from Boise]

[Osborne]

Now we need a Neutral vote.

100th Support vote is so unoriginal, that it's borderline copyvio. Let's spice it up:

100. Support – I wanted to oppose, but it's much cooler to be the 100th with a 100/100/9 tally. Stay awesome! Graham87 04:23, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

[CoffeeCrumbs]

Hey that's me! I swore off editing WP years ago, like most sane people.

back. Sane people don't return, though. We all lost it at one point.

Opposing the WMF's actions and opposing Fram's RFA here are mutually exclusive.

Some people would prefer, if this was not a referendum on wmf vs community.

I would prefer if I paid $0 a year in taxes and could pull gold coins out of my ear. Bully for them.

The process that resulted in Fram losing his admin status was fundamentally and irredeemably flawed. Any action that directly seeks to hinder the status quo ante furthers an unfair process. In a truly just world, Fram would additionally receive a formal, public apology from the WMF and every person employed by the WMF who was involved in this farce would be canned. But just the restoration of the status at the start of the case is reasonable, if limited, justice.

After this RFA, I hope Fram exercises his legal rights under the EU's data retention laws.

[Osborne]

Yess! Thank you, Inter&anthro, you made the dream come true: (100/100/10)

fram-rfa-100-100-10-a.png

RfB: Blasphemy!

Neutral - this is a tough one, on one hand the amount of trustworthy and experienced editors who have vouched for Fram is impressive and persuasive, on the other hand the behavior and the drama surrounding WP:FRAM is equally hard to ignore. I have not interacted much with this user or else my opinion for support or oppose would be more concrete. My gut instinct says WP:NOTNOW, and advise the nominated user to take some time off to cool things down and think things through regardless of the result of this RFA. Thanks Inter&anthro (talk) 04:32, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

Good work with the reasoning, one might believe 100/100/10 is just by accident.

[Jans Hammer]

102 102 10 -- remarkable symmetry being maintained

[Jans Hammer]

Ring, Ring, it's 7:00 pm / Move yourself to go again...

96 - 94 - 1 = 51%

Food for thought:

93. Oppose To be clear, I believe that the one year WMF ban was both unjust and ham-fisted, and I am glad it was overturned by the very ArbCom that Fram despises. But the issue before us now is whether Fram's conduct has been acceptable for an administrator. In several cases, it is clear that he fell short, and in a few cases, he fell very far short. I came here hoping to see self-reflection and contrition. Instead, Fram chose this edit summary when beginning this RfA: "No discussion, no application of logic, no appeal to fairness or demand of actual evidence will change the position of those wanting to desysop. So let's get this started, shall we?" Instead of dissecting this strange and self-indulgent statement in detail, I will simply say that it represents Fram's usual attitude that any chaos and disruption he creates is the fault of other people who lack the ability to recognize and applaud his unique insights. I find the notion that we should only consider behavior in the last one year to be bizarre. Why not 18 months? Why not six months? Fram openly admits that he engaged in a two month spree of hostile, combative behavior less than two years ago, but he has not made a sincere humble apology to the community. I will not support Fram for administrator unless I see a dramatic change in his behavior, and so far, I haven't. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 6:36 pm, Today (UTC−7)

Plus, Kudpung is in the Support camp.

But I still need a shower...

RfB

Just got to love the overblown, self important hubris of this guy:

I am terribly sorry that I was late to the party. My support was drafted in advance of the RfA and was intended to be at least within one of the first 5 votes. However, due to my time zone, by the time I woke up at 5AM his morning many votes had been cast so my vote will have lost a lot of its impact. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 12:50 am, Today (UTC+1)

[Ansh666]

Well, this horse is dead... what happens next?

Everyone continues beating it, of course. Look, there's even a smiley for it.

[GoldenRing]

Nice of ArbCom to have the "clerks" proxy for them in the oppose column.

I might have missed some, but the clerks I've seen have been one opposed (bradv), one supporting (Miniapolis) and one neutral (me). I'm not sure how you work that into "proxy[ing] in the oppose column."

[Midsize Jake]

I've been watching this debacle since it started and have done an intense amount of reading. It's frustrating to see this shit. I've seen it happen over and over again where communities lose their Fram and go in the bin. I truly think this is a turning point for the worse for WP... and I'm not being hyperbolic. The contributions of people like him aren't understood or appreciated. That's all outside of the travesty ARBCOM made of this case.

There's nothing stopping him from making contributions. He does God's work getting in WMF's face about their shitty new products... That requires absolutely zero administrative buttons.

I wouldn't expect him to do stuff like that anymore, personally. Just a hunch...

I think what Mr. Musikaman is really saying here is that if your junkyard loses its dog, then pretty soon people are going to realize there's nothing between them and your junk, at which point they're going to start messing with your junk in ways you might not especially like.

He could also be saying that a lot of Wikipedians are buying into their own bullshit, and thinking their shit doesn't stink, but the reality is that the only reason they get to think that is because over the years a small number of people have been roaming around the place with cans of air freshener, spraying away whenever they see some shit, while everyone else enjoys their nice little cocktail party. You take away the air freshener, pretty soon the place is going to smell the way it should have been smelling all along, and people are going to stop enjoying their cocktails.

One thing I'm sure of, though, is that he's not making a lot of unfair judgements about people who insist on making distasteful analogies, because that would obviously be a really bad thing to do.

[Alex Shih]

Nice of ArbCom to have the "clerks" proxy for them in the oppose column.

I might have missed some, but the clerks I've seen have been one opposed (bradv), one supporting (Miniapolis) and one neutral (me). I'm not sure how you work that into "proxy[ing] in the oppose column."

Yes you did. Guerillero (emphatic oppose) and Liz (Neutral leaning oppose) have both been pretty active in this RfA. And also DeltaQuad, whom is acting as a neutral 'crat clerking this RfA, when in the ideal world she really should recuse. Again this is a question of "must" vs. "should", and unfortunately many folks on Wikipedia simply do not have the decency to follow the moral integrity

[Alex Shih]

People should really scrutinise the Dr Aaij (T-C-L) account more; this isn't the first time Drmies have issues with problematic use of alternate accounts. Focusing on the Dr Aaij account alone, even experienced administrators like Primefac (T-C-L) were confused by this alternate account: See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia ... tic_course (the diff raised is referring to the interaction at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk ... burgh_Bush)

[Xade]

49% now.. It's going to sink. I predict roughly 150+ support/150+ oppose /20-30 neutral.

[Jans Hammer]

I've been watching this debacle since it started and have done an intense amount of reading. It's frustrating to see this shit. I've seen it happen over and over again where communities lose their Fram and go in the bin. I truly think this is a turning point for the worse for WP... and I'm not being hyperbolic. The contributions of people like him aren't understood or appreciated. That's all outside of the travesty ARBCOM made of this case.

There's nothing stopping him from making contributions. He does God's work getting in WMF's face about their shitty new products... That requires absolutely zero administrative buttons.

I wouldn't expect him to do stuff like that anymore, personally. Just a hunch...

I think what Mr. Musikaman is really saying here is that if your junkyard loses its dog, then pretty soon people are going to realize there's nothing between them and your junk, at which point they're going to start messing with your junk in ways you might not especially like.

He could also be saying that a lot of Wikipedians are buying into their own bullshit, and thinking their shit doesn't stink, but the reality is that the only reason they get to think that is because over the years a small number of people have been roaming around the place with cans of air freshener, spraying away whenever they see some shit, while everyone else enjoys their nice little cocktail party. You take away the air freshener, pretty soon the place is going to smell the way it should have been smelling all along, and people are going to stop enjoying their cocktails.

One thing I'm sure of, though, is that he's not making a lot of unfair judgements about people who insist on making distasteful analogies, because that would obviously be a really bad thing to do.

Sometimes though, I think you will agree, air freshener can be really overpowering and unpleasant? He doesn't "get" his own faults. His supporters have let him down. Best advice would be to show some contrition, make a clear statement he was not doing an RfA for 6 months and work on his public image. Instead, he and his immediate coterie had this RfA written before the AC case was closed. And did you see the original draft? The guy has absolutely no self-awareness or believes too much in his own publicity that he is a mission critical cog.

[MrErnie]

Tim is continuing to show his ass:

While you're at it, you might want to analyze how this thing magically started out 12-to-1 Support during the first twenty minutes or so. Carrite (talk) 03:54, 27 September 2019

That's usually how most RFA's start, and a lot of us knew it would be dropping after Fastily added their co-nom. My opinion is meaningless, but I think a lot less of you now. Hope you enjoy your new friends Gamaliel, Jorm, and all the other WMF lickspittles.

[Poetlister]

Now it's 106/114/13 (48%). Quite a few people in WMF must be breathing a sigh of relief, and LH is probably laughing. Whatever people think of Fram, surely anything that looks like an endorsement of LH can't be good.

[Randy from Boise]

Tim is continuing to show his ass:

While you're at it, you might want to analyze how this thing magically started out 12-to-1 Support during the first twenty minutes or so. Carrite (talk) 03:54, 27 September 2019

That's usually how most RFA's start, and a lot of us knew it would be dropping after Fastily added their co-nom. My opinion is meaningless, but I think a lot less of you now. Hope you enjoy your new friends Gamaliel, Jorm, and all the other WMF lickspittles.

They're not my friends. Among active Wikipedians, I only have one or two. Jim/Cullen is my friend.

Other than that, I have a bunch of associates at WP. And those you mention so sarcastically are not even my associates. They are on the same side of a political question that I am.

I don't understand why you and Vig thought for even one second that I would be voting to re-tool Fram. I have been 100% consistent in my opinion of him. I defy you to show me even one post where I indicate he's a great person that needs to keep his tools, because Fram. He's an asshole. He has about 50% support, and of that about 50% are voting for him because they don't understand that WMF and its new power tool have already been defeated. He's been such a prick for such a long time that it will take Saul turning to Paul for him to ever run the gauntlet successfully again. And, trust me, he's still fucking Saul now and he probably always will be.

RfB

[Jans Hammer]

Now it's 106/114/13 (48%). Quite a few people in WMF must be breathing a sigh of relief, and LH is probably laughing. Whatever people think of Fram, surely anything that looks like an endorsement of LH can't be good.

Are you convinced though, by that angle? The weight of opposes from editors who never cropped up during "the case" relate to his brutal treatment of editors who have made genuine (albeit annoying and stupid to Fram) mistakes. To be honest, this is exactly what is needed to shock several of the pre-2010 Admins with a similar mind set to Fram. And there are many

[Randy from Boise]

Now it's 106/114/13 (48%). Quite a few people in WMF must be breathing a sigh of relief, and LH is probably laughing. Whatever people think of Fram, surely anything that looks like an endorsement of LH can't be good.

Are you convinced though, by that angle? The weight of opposes from editors who never cropped up during "the case" relate to his brutal treatment of editors who have made genuine (albeit annoying and stupid to Fram) mistakes. To be honest, this is exactly what is needed to shock several of the pre-2010 Admins with a similar mind set to Fram. And there are many

There are a few more that need to go away.

Let's start that list with Sandstein.

But he's just sadistic and ruthless and shouldn't be around sharp objects for public safety reasons, not an asshole.

RfB

[Jans Hammer]

Tim is continuing to show his ass:

While you're at it, you might want to analyze how this thing magically started out 12-to-1 Support during the first twenty minutes or so. Carrite (talk) 03:54, 27 September 2019

That's usually how most RFA's start, and a lot of us knew it would be dropping after Fastily added their co-nom. My opinion is meaningless, but I think a lot less of you now. Hope you enjoy your new friends Gamaliel, Jorm, and all the other WMF lickspittles.

They're not my friends. Among active Wikipedians, I only have one or two. Jim/Cullen is my friend.

Other than that, I have a bunch of associates at WP. And those you mention so sarcastically are not even my associates. They are on the same side of a political question that I am.

I don't understand why you and Vig thought for even one second that I would be voting to re-tool Fram. I have been 100% consistent in my opinion of him. I defy you to show me even one post where I indicate he's a great person that needs to keep his tools, because Fram. He's an asshole. He has about 50% support, and of that about 50% are voting for him because they don't understand that WMF and its new power tool have already been defeated. He's been such a prick for such a long time that it will take Saul turning to Paul for him to ever run the gauntlet successfully again. And, trust me, he's still fucking Saul now and he probably always will be.

RfB

I think it is necessary to separate "him" from "his case". I agree with most of what has been said about WMF/T&S, secret evidence and all that. But Fram has behaved and still does, like an untouchable patriarch - "Admins must be willing to make tough calls and to put the requirements of a good encyclopedia over the concerns that editors may have too many friends and that taking action may mean making enemies." does not need to be incompatible with decent behavior towards others who he does not know. Making enemies is not a mandatory part of the job description.

[Randy from Boise]

I think it is necessary to separate "him" from "his case". I agree with most of what has been said about WMF/T&S, secret evidence and all that. But Fram has behaved and still does, like an untouchable patriarch - "Admins must be willing to make tough calls and to put the requirements of a good encyclopedia over the concerns that editors may have too many friends and that taking action may mean making enemies." does not need to be incompatible with decent behavior towards others who he does not know.

The cat is more tone deaf than William Hung.

RfB

[Randy from Boise]

Day 2 of the Fram reconfirmation begins. At 4:00 am in the West it is

106 - 116 - 13 = 48

Only new Support name I recognize is Deor (T-C-L), on procedural grounds.

New Opposes since #100 include Johnuniq (T-C-L), GiantSnowman (T-C-L), and ex-Arb Thryduulf (T-C-L).

Oh, and Fae (T-C-L).

Debate page: linkhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia ... hip/Fram_2[/link]

RfB

[GoldenRing]

I can't believe the number of editors who are arguing that arbcom should have restored the status quo ante bellum and then invited another case against Fram. Quite apart from NOTBUREAU, this seems blatant drama-mongering to me. If there was cause to desysop, they should have maintained the desysop. If there wasn't, they should have resysopped. What's the point in re-litigating the whole damn thing (yet again)?

[MrErnie]

I can't believe the number of editors who are arguing that arbcom should have restored the status quo ante bellum and then invited another case against Fram. Quite apart from NOTBUREAU, this seems blatant drama-mongering to me. If there was cause to desysop, they should have maintained the desysop. If there wasn't, they should have resysopped. What's the point in re-litigating the whole damn thing (yet again)?

My thinking is that at least this gives opportunity for an open evidence phase. The evidence phase of the Fram case that we got was pathetic, with very weak evidence that in no way supported a desysop, causing Arbcom to have to draft a last minute FoF stating they are going to hide behind the dossier. With a fresh case hopefully there would be more participation - indeed all these oppose votes chiming in at the RFA could have participated to air their grievances. As it was, it seems like most of them stayed silent knowing that a desysop would be the result.

For example Gamaliel didn't bother to poke his head in to the Arb case because he knew his "evidence" would be rightly shoved right back into his face. At RFA he's free to throw mud without any worry it would stick to him.

[GoldenRing]

I can't believe the number of editors who are arguing that arbcom should have restored the status quo ante bellum and then invited another case against Fram. Quite apart from NOTBUREAU, this seems blatant drama-mongering to me. If there was cause to desysop, they should have maintained the desysop. If there wasn't, they should have resysopped. What's the point in re-litigating the whole damn thing (yet again)?

My thinking is that at least this gives opportunity for an open evidence phase. The evidence phase of the Fram case that we got was pathetic, with very weak evidence that in no way supported a desysop, causing Arbcom to have to draft a last minute FoF stating they are going to hide behind the dossier. With a fresh case hopefully there would be more participation - indeed all these oppose votes chiming in at the RFA could have participated to air their grievances. As it was, it seems like most of them stayed silent knowing that a desysop would be the result.

For example Gamaliel didn't bother to poke his head in to the Arb case because he knew his "evidence" would be rightly shoved right back into his face. At RFA he's free to throw mud without any worry it would stick to him.

So suppose we did have another case, and he was desysopped, what then? Arbcom desysops always come with the "may regain the bit at any time through an RfA" rider, so would we have yet another one?

[Vigilant]

I can't believe the number of editors who are arguing that arbcom should have restored the status quo ante bellum and then invited another case against Fram. Quite apart from NOTBUREAU, this seems blatant drama-mongering to me. If there was cause to desysop, they should have maintained the desysop. If there wasn't, they should have resysopped. What's the point in re-litigating the whole damn thing (yet again)?

My thinking is that at least this gives opportunity for an open evidence phase. The evidence phase of the Fram case that we got was pathetic, with very weak evidence that in no way supported a desysop, causing Arbcom to have to draft a last minute FoF stating they are going to hide behind the dossier. With a fresh case hopefully there would be more participation - indeed all these oppose votes chiming in at the RFA could have participated to air their grievances. As it was, it seems like most of them stayed silent knowing that a desysop would be the result.

For example Gamaliel didn't bother to poke his head in to the Arb case because he knew his "evidence" would be rightly shoved right back into his face. At RFA he's free to throw mud without any worry it would stick to him.

So suppose we did have another case, and he was desysopped, what then? Arbcom desysops always come with the "may regain the bit at any time through an RfA" rider, so would we have yet another one?

You know, as a clerk for the highest deliberative body on en.wp, I would wish that you understood that the process being followed and being seen to be fair and equitable is vastly more important than the outcome for any given case.

[GoldenRing]

You know, as a clerk for the highest deliberative body on en.wp, I would wish that you understood that the process being followed and being seen to be fair and equitable is vastly more important than the outcome for any given case.

You have a very basic misunderstanding of what Wikipedia is. WP:NOJUSTICE (T-H-L) is not policy but it's right. WP:NOTBUREAU (T-H-L) is policy which directly contradicts what you've said above. In particular, "A procedural error made in a proposal or request is not grounds for rejecting that proposal or request." Wikipedia is not a legal system or a system for achieving equitable outcomes; it is an encyclopaedia.

[Carcharoth]

Fram has withdrawn the RfA.

At about the same time that someone on the RfA talk page said Fram was a friend of mine! That is quite funny, actually, now I've had time to think about that.

[Vigilant]

You know, as a clerk for the highest deliberative body on en.wp, I would wish that you understood that the process being followed and being seen to be fair and equitable is vastly more important than the outcome for any given case.

You have a very basic misunderstanding of what Wikipedia is. WP:NOJUSTICE (T-H-L) is not policy but it's right. WP:NOTBUREAU (T-H-L) is policy which directly contradicts what you've said above. In particular, "A procedural error made in a proposal or request is not grounds for rejecting that proposal or request." Wikipedia is not a legal system or a system for achieving equitable outcomes; it is an encyclopaedia.

Drink that koolaid, son.
Quote those wiki-policies, as if it makes it right.

If it were 'an encyclopaedia', Laura Hale wouldn't have been allowed to shit it up for a decade and Fram wouldn't have been the only gatekeeper. What you have is a social network of petty political players, most who are utterly incapable of 'writing an encyclopaedia' even if their life depended on it, who play at nasty politics.

The case was not predicated on a procedural error, it was fundamentally designed to be unfair, with the outcome preordained.

You participated in it as a Good German.
"I vas just follwink orders!"

[Vigilant]

From talk

Disclosures of other potential biases

How do folks feel about disclosures of other biases that the closing bureaucrat might discount? I am specifically thinking of the massive "pro-Fram" campaign off-wiki, on a certain critical website, where several of the participants in this RfA have participated and where there can be little doubt that the comments, and some deliberate hostile trolling, is very clearly canvassing in a way that WMDC's generic statement is not. Thanks --Fæ (talk) 11:41, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

Dear Ashley,

Have you finally disclosed your other sockpuppets to ARBCOM as required by their ruling?

[Jans Hammer]

WITHDRAWN 108 122 14

[Carcharoth]

Could I make a request that if I have to be listed as the 'author' of this thread (because Zoloft merged some other posts into this one), can the title be changed so it doesn't imply that I wrote that (it was Randy/Carrite who wrote that).


I have done that. --Zoloft

[Randy from Boise]

You know, as a clerk for the highest deliberative body discipline committee on en.wp, I would wish that you understood that the process being followed and being seen to be fair and equitable is vastly more important than the outcome for any given case.

Fixed it for you...

Sort of ruins the thought though, eh?

RfB

[Randy from Boise]

Carcharoth is not the author of this thread, so don't anyone go keying his car.

Mods: Stick this post at the top.

t

[Vigilant]

You know, as a clerk for the highest deliberative body discipline committee on en.wp, I would wish that you understood that the process being followed and being seen to be fair and equitable is vastly more important than the outcome for any given case.

Fixed it for you...

RfB

After this case, I'm not sure what to call them.

They split the baby like Solomon.

The delicious part isn't even here yet.
I suspect that there are more than enough skeletons in most admin's pasts to show them having violated WP:ADMINCOND.

What this reveals for all to see is that ARBCOM is a purely political process at this point.
Any pretense of fairness has been torn away.

[GoldenRing]

You know, as a clerk for the highest deliberative body on en.wp, I would wish that you understood that the process being followed and being seen to be fair and equitable is vastly more important than the outcome for any given case.

You have a very basic misunderstanding of what Wikipedia is. WP:NOJUSTICE (T-H-L) is not policy but it's right. WP:NOTBUREAU (T-H-L) is policy which directly contradicts what you've said above. In particular, "A procedural error made in a proposal or request is not grounds for rejecting that proposal or request." Wikipedia is not a legal system or a system for achieving equitable outcomes; it is an encyclopaedia.

Drink that koolaid, son.
Quote those wiki-policies, as if it makes it right.

If it were 'an encyclopaedia', Laura Hale wouldn't have been allowed to shit it up for a decade and Fram wouldn't have been the only gatekeeper. What you have is a social network of petty political players, most who are utterly incapable of 'writing an encyclopaedia' even if their life depended on it, who play at nasty politics.

The case was not predicated on a procedural error, it was fundamentally designed to be unfair, with the outcome preordained.

You participated in it as a Good German.
"I vas just follwink orders!"

You don't like the rules, piss off and make your own encyclopaedia.

[Vigilant]

You know, as a clerk for the highest deliberative body on en.wp, I would wish that you understood that the process being followed and being seen to be fair and equitable is vastly more important than the outcome for any given case.

You have a very basic misunderstanding of what Wikipedia is. WP:NOJUSTICE (T-H-L) is not policy but it's right. WP:NOTBUREAU (T-H-L) is policy which directly contradicts what you've said above. In particular, "A procedural error made in a proposal or request is not grounds for rejecting that proposal or request." Wikipedia is not a legal system or a system for achieving equitable outcomes; it is an encyclopaedia.

Drink that koolaid, son.
Quote those wiki-policies, as if it makes it right.

If it were 'an encyclopaedia', Laura Hale wouldn't have been allowed to shit it up for a decade and Fram wouldn't have been the only gatekeeper. What you have is a social network of petty political players, most who are utterly incapable of 'writing an encyclopaedia' even if their life depended on it, who play at nasty politics.

The case was not predicated on a procedural error, it was fundamentally designed to be unfair, with the outcome preordained.

You participated in it as a Good German.
"I vas just follwink orders!"

You don't like the rules, piss off and make your own encyclopaedia.

America, Love it or Leave it!
The cry of the frustrated fascist.

Touched a nerve there, son?

The best part is, you know I'm right.

[GoldenRing]

You know, as a clerk for the highest deliberative body on en.wp, I would wish that you understood that the process being followed and being seen to be fair and equitable is vastly more important than the outcome for any given case.

You have a very basic misunderstanding of what Wikipedia is. WP:NOJUSTICE (T-H-L) is not policy but it's right. WP:NOTBUREAU (T-H-L) is policy which directly contradicts what you've said above. In particular, "A procedural error made in a proposal or request is not grounds for rejecting that proposal or request." Wikipedia is not a legal system or a system for achieving equitable outcomes; it is an encyclopaedia.

Drink that koolaid, son.
Quote those wiki-policies, as if it makes it right.

If it were 'an encyclopaedia', Laura Hale wouldn't have been allowed to shit it up for a decade and Fram wouldn't have been the only gatekeeper. What you have is a social network of petty political players, most who are utterly incapable of 'writing an encyclopaedia' even if their life depended on it, who play at nasty politics.

The case was not predicated on a procedural error, it was fundamentally designed to be unfair, with the outcome preordained.

You participated in it as a Good German.
"I vas just follwink orders!"

You don't like the rules, piss off and make your own encyclopaedia.

America, Love it or Leave it!
The cry of the frustrated fascist.

Touched a nerve there, son?

The best part is, you know I'm right.

You're wrong, and you have abominable taste in hats.

[Vigilant]

This assumes an evolutionary view of politics, and denies the possibility that national politics can be the governance of a nation for the good of all people, not just the ruling elite. --[[User:GoldenRing|GoldenRing]] 01:48, Aug 5, 2004 (UTC)

Irony!