The problem with Arbcom is since anyone on it becomes Public Enemy Number One, has no remuneration, and requires a rough equivalent of trying to get a pig to sing, it suffers from the Dilbert principle (T-H-L). Anyone who would be a good arb won't want to do it, so it will naturally attract those that don't realise it's a poisoned chalice. I've been asked to run for Arbcom a few times and my usual response is that I'd rather look at this:Beeblebrox wrote:The problem will be finding people with sense but who somehow actually want the job.
Ritchie333
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Re: Ritchie333
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Re: Ritchie333
It really is a shit job, By the time I'd been on for a few months I was glad I only got a one-year term and knew I wouldn't run again, there's now ay I could've done that for three years without burning out. It's just endless, there's always something that's not getting done, and there's always somebody telling you how much you suck. And, being perfectly frank, there is always at least one arb who does suck.
From what I hear it sucks slightly less overall than it used to, with BASC and AUSC gone and some better email filtering there isn't quite as much crap to go through on a daily basis, but I'd imagine framgate has been pretty miserable.
From what I hear it sucks slightly less overall than it used to, with BASC and AUSC gone and some better email filtering there isn't quite as much crap to go through on a daily basis, but I'd imagine framgate has been pretty miserable.
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Re: Ritchie333
I'm pretty sure all arbs think this and are all certain it's not them.Beeblebrox wrote:It really is a shit job, By the time I'd been on for a few months I was glad I only got a one-year term and knew I wouldn't run again, there's now ay I could've done that for three years without burning out. It's just endless, there's always something that's not getting done, and there's always somebody telling you how much you suck. And, being perfectly frank, there is always at least one arb who does suck.
From what I hear it sucks slightly less overall than it used to, with BASC and AUSC gone and some better email filtering there isn't quite as much crap to go through on a daily basis, but I'd imagine framgate has been pretty miserable.
Which one sucked from your time?
Hello, John. John, hello. You're the one soul I would come up here to collect myself.
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Re: Ritchie333
I mean, i wasn't the greatest myself and was very aware of it, but I don't think I was the most irritating person in the 2014 committee, and I'd imagine you could figure out for yourself who was.Vigilant wrote:I'm pretty sure all arbs think this and are all certain it's not them.Beeblebrox wrote:It really is a shit job, By the time I'd been on for a few months I was glad I only got a one-year term and knew I wouldn't run again, there's now ay I could've done that for three years without burning out. It's just endless, there's always something that's not getting done, and there's always somebody telling you how much you suck. And, being perfectly frank, there is always at least one arb who does suck.
From what I hear it sucks slightly less overall than it used to, with BASC and AUSC gone and some better email filtering there isn't quite as much crap to go through on a daily basis, but I'd imagine framgate has been pretty miserable.
Which one sucked from your time?
information is not knowledge, knowledge is not wisdom
Re: Ritchie333
Thank you for this post.Ritchie333 wrote: The problem with Arbcom is since anyone on it becomes Public Enemy Number One, has no remuneration, and requires a rough equivalent of trying to get a pig to sing, it suffers from the Dilbert principle (T-H-L). Anyone who would be a good arb won't want to do it, so it will naturally attract those that don't realise it's a poisoned chalice. I've been asked to run for Arbcom a few times and my usual response is that I'd rather look at this: 10 hours of paint drying
Sadly ArbCom is very politicized. This is inherent to any election based board. The model/experiment failed.
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Re: Ritchie333
I am not sure I could even have named all the 38 arbs I was on ArbCom with before looking them up. Not even sure I've got the number correct. Some arbs you see very briefly as they are exiting as you enter (or are entering as you leave). I am guessing Newyorkbrad has had the most number of different arbs he has worked with (maybe someone can calculate the number?). Some arbs do make more of an impression than others. Some are not very memorable, but sometimes that is a good thing!
Heh, there have been a total of 101 different arbs so far in ArbCom's history. Not sure anyone has ever counted them up before (the full listing is here).
Heh, there have been a total of 101 different arbs so far in ArbCom's history. Not sure anyone has ever counted them up before (the full listing is here).
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Re: Ritchie333
That sounds about right. There seemed to be some arbs who just show up to vote but are otherwise barely involved with the day-to-day operations of the committee, and that's probably fairly common. I was active enough on the mailing lists but I was only a drafter on one case, the nightmare known as GamerGate, and I got a flu in the middle of working on the PD so in the end I really never even drafted a case. I volunteered for that one because I knew it was going to be horrible but that I'd be done when it was over.
One of the things nobody tells you is that during January the banned users come out fo the woodwork thinking maybe they'll find sympathetic voices on the new committee. You get bombarded with emails from a lot of the "worst of the worst." We didn't have the SanFran Ban back then, it came to be during my term. It does have a purpose.
One of the things nobody tells you is that during January the banned users come out fo the woodwork thinking maybe they'll find sympathetic voices on the new committee. You get bombarded with emails from a lot of the "worst of the worst." We didn't have the SanFran Ban back then, it came to be during my term. It does have a purpose.
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Re: Ritchie333
Feel free to share!Beeblebrox wrote:I mean, i wasn't the greatest myself and was very aware of it, but I don't think I was the most irritating person in the 2014 committee, and I'd imagine you could figure out for yourself who was.
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Re: Ritchie333
This is such a easy guess looking at Beeblebrox's batch. Of course it was AGK, whom by the way was probably the last straw that chased Floquenbeam off.Randy from Boise wrote:Feel free to share!Beeblebrox wrote:I mean, i wasn't the greatest myself and was very aware of it, but I don't think I was the most irritating person in the 2014 committee, and I'd imagine you could figure out for yourself who was.
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Re: Ritchie333
To be fair on AGK (who I met in person at Wikimania 2014 in London), he is absolutely fine in person, but he can come across the wrong way in emails and online. I am sure he is aware of that (as are we all to an extent, I know I come across the wrong way sometimes and have certain characteristics that annoy the hell out of some people), but it is the degree to which one can be self-aware that can be an issue. I would prefer working with AGK to some other arbs (who I won't name).
What has tended to characterise all arbs is that they do care about Wikipedia. Whether that is for altruistic motives or because they want Wikipedia to succeed because they are invested in it as part of their identity, is another matter. This also applies to long-term editors as well (and dare I say, to some of the more invested people associated with Wikipediocracy and other Wikipedia criticism sites).
What has tended to characterise all arbs is that they do care about Wikipedia. Whether that is for altruistic motives or because they want Wikipedia to succeed because they are invested in it as part of their identity, is another matter. This also applies to long-term editors as well (and dare I say, to some of the more invested people associated with Wikipediocracy and other Wikipedia criticism sites).
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Re: Ritchie333
So, why aren't you more incensed about the Laura Hale/Maria Sefidari Huici corruption?Carcharoth wrote:To be fair on AGK (who I met in person at Wikimania 2014 in London), he is absolutely fine in person, but he can come across the wrong way in emails and online. I am sure he is aware of that (as are we all to an extent, I know I come across the wrong way sometimes and have certain characteristics that annoy the hell out of some people), but it is the degree to which one can be self-aware that can be an issue. I would prefer working with AGK to some other arbs (who I won't name).
What has tended to characterise all arbs is that they do care about Wikipedia. Whether that is for altruistic motives or because they want Wikipedia to succeed because they are invested in it as part of their identity, is another matter. This also applies to long-term editors as well (and dare I say, to some of the more invested people associated with Wikipediocracy and other Wikipedia criticism sites).
Hello, John. John, hello. You're the one soul I would come up here to collect myself.
Re: Ritchie333
You Would Not Have Had A Chance In The Election Times.Ritchie333 wrote:The problem with Arbcom is since anyone on it becomes Public Enemy Number One, has no remuneration, and requires a rough equivalent of trying to get a pig to sing, it suffers from the Dilbert principle (T-H-L). Anyone who would be a good arb won't want to do it, so it will naturally attract those that don't realise it's a poisoned chalice. I've been asked to run for Arbcom a few times and my usual response is that I'd rather look at this:Beeblebrox wrote:The problem will be finding people with sense but who somehow actually want the job.
"Someone requests clarification and before you know it you find yourself in the Star Chamber."
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Re: Ritchie333
Partly because I've seen how hard it is to get people removed from the Board, either democratically via elections (too many of the people voting from other wikis in Board elections will not care at all about the 'storm' that took place on en-Wikipedia) or by direct representation to those responsible for Board governance issues. Look at what Jbhunley has been trying to do. It is not easy.Vigilant wrote:So, why aren't you more incensed about the Laura Hale/Maria Sefidari Huici corruption?Carcharoth wrote:To be fair on AGK (who I met in person at Wikimania 2014 in London), he is absolutely fine in person, but he can come across the wrong way in emails and online. I am sure he is aware of that (as are we all to an extent, I know I come across the wrong way sometimes and have certain characteristics that annoy the hell out of some people), but it is the degree to which one can be self-aware that can be an issue. I would prefer working with AGK to some other arbs (who I won't name).
What has tended to characterise all arbs is that they do care about Wikipedia. Whether that is for altruistic motives or because they want Wikipedia to succeed because they are invested in it as part of their identity, is another matter. This also applies to long-term editors as well (and dare I say, to some of the more invested people associated with Wikipediocracy and other Wikipedia criticism sites).
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Re: Ritchie333
You're not upset about endemic corruption at the highest levels of the WMF because it's hard to do anything about it?Carcharoth wrote:Partly because I've seen how hard it is to get people removed from the Board, either democratically via elections (too many of the people voting from other wikis in Board elections will not care at all about the 'storm' that took place on en-Wikipedia) or by direct representation to those responsible for Board governance issues. Look at what Jbhunley has been trying to do. It is not easy.Vigilant wrote:So, why aren't you more incensed about the Laura Hale/Maria Sefidari Huici corruption?Carcharoth wrote:To be fair on AGK (who I met in person at Wikimania 2014 in London), he is absolutely fine in person, but he can come across the wrong way in emails and online. I am sure he is aware of that (as are we all to an extent, I know I come across the wrong way sometimes and have certain characteristics that annoy the hell out of some people), but it is the degree to which one can be self-aware that can be an issue. I would prefer working with AGK to some other arbs (who I won't name).
What has tended to characterise all arbs is that they do care about Wikipedia. Whether that is for altruistic motives or because they want Wikipedia to succeed because they are invested in it as part of their identity, is another matter. This also applies to long-term editors as well (and dare I say, to some of the more invested people associated with Wikipediocracy and other Wikipedia criticism sites).
Hello, John. John, hello. You're the one soul I would come up here to collect myself.
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Re: Ritchie333
I'm not happy about it, but there are other things I care about more.
What would you suggest should be done?
What would you suggest should be done?
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Re: Ritchie333
Feel free to share!Carcharoth wrote:To be fair on AGK (who I met in person at Wikimania 2014 in London), he is absolutely fine in person, but he can come across the wrong way in emails and online. I am sure he is aware of that (as are we all to an extent, I know I come across the wrong way sometimes and have certain characteristics that annoy the hell out of some people), but it is the degree to which one can be self-aware that can be an issue.
(This is how we learn who is suited and unsuited for the job.)
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Re: Ritchie333
You want the lowdown on all 38 arbs I've worked with?
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Re: Ritchie333
I dunno man, that might be the most spineless thing I've ever read.Carcharoth wrote:I'm not happy about it, but there are other things I care about more.
What would you suggest should be done?
Hello, John. John, hello. You're the one soul I would come up here to collect myself.
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Re: Ritchie333
It would be amazing if that didn't happen. Even proper judges suffer from it.Beeblebrox wrote:and there's always somebody telling you how much you suck.
"The higher we soar the smaller we appear to those who cannot fly" - Nietzsche
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Re: Ritchie333
Go to the press? A letter to the New York Times signed by a dozen ex-Arbs would probably raise an eyebrow or two.Carcharoth wrote:I'm not happy about it, but there are other things I care about more.
What would you suggest should be done?
"The higher we soar the smaller we appear to those who cannot fly" - Nietzsche
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Re: Ritchie333
Ab-so-fucking-lutely. Give us 25 or 50 words on each!Carcharoth wrote:You want the lowdown on all 38 arbs I've worked with?
Or failing that, just categorize them as follows:
1. Five Star Arbs
2. Well meaning, but in over their head
3. Just plain in over their head
4. People that should never be allowed to do that job again
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Re: Ritchie333
The trouble with that is some other ex-Arbs might respond with their views on him!Randy from Boise wrote:Ab-so-fucking-lutely. Give us 25 or 50 words on each!Carcharoth wrote:You want the lowdown on all 38 arbs I've worked with?
Or failing that, just categorize them as follows:
1. Five Star Arbs
2. Well meaning, but in over their head
3. Just plain in over their head
4. People that should never be allowed to do that job again
RfB
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Re: Ritchie333
This is known as "crowd-sourcing" and sometimes it actually works!Poetlister wrote:The trouble with that is some other ex-Arbs might respond with their views on him!Randy from Boise wrote:Ab-so-fucking-lutely. Give us 25 or 50 words on each!Carcharoth wrote:You want the lowdown on all 38 arbs I've worked with?
Or failing that, just categorize them as follows:
1. Five Star Arbs
2. Well meaning, but in over their head
3. Just plain in over their head
4. People that should never be allowed to do that job again
RfB
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Re: Ritchie333
I did read the above. One problem is that this was 9-10 and 5-6 years ago respectively, so I am not sure how accurate my memories will be. It's also probably a bad idea anyway! I could do five-star arbs, possibly. But it would still only be my subjective opinion.
Why not start (in a new thread appropriately titled) with your (collective view) of what you've seen of the 100+ arbs in public and where you would rate them in your 4-way category system. Kind of like your ArbCom Election guides!
Why not start (in a new thread appropriately titled) with your (collective view) of what you've seen of the 100+ arbs in public and where you would rate them in your 4-way category system. Kind of like your ArbCom Election guides!
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Re: Ritchie333
The key thing would be learning the best and the worst. That information would help identify particularly good or bad future candidates.Carcharoth wrote:I did read the above. One problem is that this was 9-10 and 5-6 years ago respectively, so I am not sure how accurate my memories will be. It's also probably a bad idea anyway! I could do five-star arbs, possibly. But it would still only be my subjective opinion.
Why not start (in a new thread appropriately titled) with your (collective view) of what you've seen of the 100+ arbs in public and where you would rate them in your 4-way category system. Kind of like your ArbCom Election guides!
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Re: Ritchie333
Top tip: avoid candidates who are into zoophilia (T-H-L).Randy from Boise wrote:The key thing would be learning the best and the worst. That information would help identify particularly good or bad future candidates.
RfB
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Re: Ritchie333
Hmmm... I would have pretty much taken that as a given, it is not like Arbcom is a dining club. There are a potential/ex arbs who could be described as 'fucking muppets' but I think that would be an adjective not an orientation.... Oh!.... furries!... we have furries?!
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Re: Ritchie333
Somebody explained cost--benefit analysis to the dude.Vigilant wrote:I dunno man, that might be the most spineless thing I've ever read.Carcharoth wrote:I'm not happy about it, but there are other things I care about more.
What would you suggest should be done?
Kiefer.Wolfowitz (T-C-L)
“Arguing with anonymous strangers on the Internet is a sucker's game because they almost always turn out to be—or to be indistinguishable from—self-righteous sixteen-year-olds possessing infinite amounts of free time.”
Neal Stephenson (T-H-L) Cryptonomicon
“Arguing with anonymous strangers on the Internet is a sucker's game because they almost always turn out to be—or to be indistinguishable from—self-righteous sixteen-year-olds possessing infinite amounts of free time.”
Neal Stephenson (T-H-L) Cryptonomicon
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Re: Ritchie333
I dunno. The thought did cross my mind (only after my initial replies above) that some arbs and ex-arbs might well complain to T&S if I went too far. Now, on Wikipedia it is fairly clear what the rules are about off-wiki conduct and where various people draw the lines in various circumstances, but it is completely unclear what a shadowy unaccountable body like T&S does when presented with off-wiki activities that make people on-wiki feel "unsafe". So I guess that does make me spineless!
(Actually, some on-wiki reaction would probably be more likely. I guess I want to leave options open for the future. Once you take some steps you can't really go back on them. Oh, this is rambling too much: what Kiefer said: cost-benefit analysis.)
(Actually, some on-wiki reaction would probably be more likely. I guess I want to leave options open for the future. Once you take some steps you can't really go back on them. Oh, this is rambling too much: what Kiefer said: cost-benefit analysis.)
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Re: Ritchie333
I believe Poetlister was making a FT2 reference.Jbhunley wrote:Hmmm... I would have pretty much taken that as a given, it is not like Arbcom is a dining club. There are a potential/ex arbs who could be described as 'fucking muppets' but I think that would be an adjective not an orientation.... Oh!.... furries!... we have furries?!
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Re: Ritchie333
Alex: You said it; I didn't.Alex Shih wrote:I believe Poetlister was making a FT2 reference.Jbhunley wrote:Hmmm... I would have pretty much taken that as a given, it is not like Arbcom is a dining club. There are a potential/ex arbs who could be described as 'fucking muppets' but I think that would be an adjective not an orientation.... Oh!.... furries!... we have furries?!
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Re: Ritchie333
Don't believe for a second that there aren't people in here who wouldn't give a second thought to sharing stuff from the private forums with functionaries or arbcom in an effort to get someone banned for "offsite harassment."Carcharoth wrote:I dunno. The thought did cross my mind (only after my initial replies above) that some arbs and ex-arbs might well complain to T&S if I went too far. Now, on Wikipedia it is fairly clear what the rules are about off-wiki conduct and where various people draw the lines in various circumstances, but it is completely unclear what a shadowy unaccountable body like T&S does when presented with off-wiki activities that make people on-wiki feel "unsafe". So I guess that does make me spineless!
(Actually, some on-wiki reaction would probably be more likely. I guess I want to leave options open for the future. Once you take some steps you can't really go back on them. Oh, this is rambling too much: what Kiefer said: cost-benefit analysis.)
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Re: Ritchie333
The three negatives in a row at the beginning of that sentence had me reading it a few times.....Beeblebrox wrote:Don't believe for a second that there aren't people in here who wouldn't give a second thought to sharing stuff from the private forums with functionaries or arbcom in an effort to get someone banned for "offsite harassment."Carcharoth wrote:I dunno. The thought did cross my mind (only after my initial replies above) that some arbs and ex-arbs might well complain to T&S if I went too far. Now, on Wikipedia it is fairly clear what the rules are about off-wiki conduct and where various people draw the lines in various circumstances, but it is completely unclear what a shadowy unaccountable body like T&S does when presented with off-wiki activities that make people on-wiki feel "unsafe". So I guess that does make me spineless!
(Actually, some on-wiki reaction would probably be more likely. I guess I want to leave options open for the future. Once you take some steps you can't really go back on them. Oh, this is rambling too much: what Kiefer said: cost-benefit analysis.)
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Re: Ritchie333
Jimbo shoved me repeatedly with a shopping cart in the Express Lane checkout at the supermarket yesterday.Beeblebrox wrote:Don't believe for a second that there aren't people in here who wouldn't give a second thought to sharing stuff from the private forums with functionaries or arbcom in an effort to get someone banned for "offsite harassment."
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Re: Ritchie333
Although Jimbo's actions were an overreaction, the sign clearly said 12 items or less. You shouldn't have grabbed that candy bar at checkout bringing your total to 13.Midsize Jake wrote:Jimbo shoved me repeatedly with a shopping cart in the Express Lane checkout at the supermarket yesterday.Beeblebrox wrote:Don't believe for a second that there aren't people in here who wouldn't give a second thought to sharing stuff from the private forums with functionaries or arbcom in an effort to get someone banned for "offsite harassment."
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Re: Ritchie333
Now he's a British citizen, he should know that's not how we British people behave.Midsize Jake wrote:Jimbo shoved me repeatedly with a shopping cart in the Express Lane checkout at the supermarket yesterday.Beeblebrox wrote:Don't believe for a second that there aren't people in here who wouldn't give a second thought to sharing stuff from the private forums with functionaries or arbcom in an effort to get someone banned for "offsite harassment."
"The higher we soar the smaller we appear to those who cannot fly" - Nietzsche
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Re: Ritchie333
It’s all about proper queuing.Poetlister wrote:Now he's a British citizen, he should know that's not how we British people behave.Midsize Jake wrote:Jimbo shoved me repeatedly with a shopping cart in the Express Lane checkout at the supermarket yesterday.Beeblebrox wrote:Don't believe for a second that there aren't people in here who wouldn't give a second thought to sharing stuff from the private forums with functionaries or arbcom in an effort to get someone banned for "offsite harassment."
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Re: Ritchie333
Zoloft wrote:It’s all about proper queuing.
- Zoloft
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Re: Ritchie333
tarantino wrote:Zoloft wrote:It’s all about proper queuing.
My avatar is sometimes indicative of my mood:
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Re: Ritchie333
That was pretty good. I've been in a couple of Trader Joe's. I never had an experience anything like that.tarantino wrote:Zoloft wrote:It’s all about proper queuing.
- Ritchie333
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Re: Ritchie333
Meanwhile, dammit I can't decline the CSD on Paul Cauthen (T-H-L) because Praxy tagged it. Looks like she wants to stick the knife in Erika. :-(
Re: Ritchie333
Meh, it is that a Young Daughter does your Job For You
"Someone requests clarification and before you know it you find yourself in the Star Chamber."
Re: Ritchie333
Mon They sucking for their sense of self-entitlement creation10920 wrote:That was pretty good. I've been in a couple of Trader Joe's. I never had an experience anything like that.tarantino wrote:Zoloft wrote:It’s all about proper queuing.
"Someone requests clarification and before you know it you find yourself in the Star Chamber."
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Re: Ritchie333
Guess who's come to the rescue.
"The higher we soar the smaller we appear to those who cannot fly" - Nietzsche
Re: Ritchie333
Praxidicae (T-C-L) is clearly on the deletionist destructionist end of the "Here to create an encyclopedia" spectrum.
It's ridiculous that respected editors constantly need to be reminded of the proper wording of rules, and that we are here to CREATE and encyclopedia.
Counseling for Praxidicae: The rule does not say you MUST delete the page, it ALLOWs deleting the page, if that's an improvement for WP. This article clearly benefits the encyclopedia.
However, in this case the rule did not even allow deleting it, and the CSD tag is a misapplication of the rules. WP:REVENGE (T-H-L)? Take better care.
- Ritchie333
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Re: Ritchie333
Can anyone tell me when was the last time Praxidicae expanded an article that wasn't a direct consequence of reverting somebody?
Re: Ritchie333
https://en.wikiscan.org/utilisateur/PraxidicaeRitchie333 wrote:Can anyone tell me when was the last time Praxidicae expanded an article that wasn't a direct consequence of reverting somebody?
Article diffs excluding reverts -6.8 M
Numbers don't lie.