Wikipediocracy

Black Kite wrote:

Vigilant wrote: Laura Hale sends an illegal deletion request to a list that should not handle them and an admin who has handled less than 5 of these cases in 13 years comes off the bench to do this one...

Odds that this was an innocent mistake?
ZERO

Odds that other are coaching her?
ONE

Another line has been crossed and this time people were watching.

I'm going to to give Yamla a pass on this. I think he just fucked up - he admits he hasn't been on the global renamers list for very long. No admin who actually knew who that vanished user was, and therefore how many eyes were on that talk page, would have deleted it. The conversation on his talk page genuinely gives the impression of "oh fuck, what have I done?"

What are the odds?
Let's assume that this was a coincidence.
Fine.

What should happen now is the request should be made public.
The Right To Vanish should be revoked if it was Laura Hale or Maria Sefidari who instigated this request, either directly or through middlemen.
Answers need to be had.
This is spoliation of evidence.
You can't get to the bottom of a problem if one side is allowed to delete all the fucking evidence without penalty.

When does this get posted at AN/I?

What an odd thing.
A drive by frogging.
linkhttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... =912685632[/link]

They thought Fram had a big ego before, wait till he comes back now with the notion that the entire community banded together to fight against the evil WMF empire on his behalf. It's going to be great to watch!

eagle wrote:Laura Hale setting unrealistic goals then generates unreasonable pressure on her and her allies to produce quickly -- even if it means turning a GA review into an ArbCom case, or accidentally giving a bunch of BLPs the same birthdate. She would never stand by and take criticism to heart, any more than a McDonald's hamburger chef will stop and listen to criticism from customers about undercooked or misprepared food. So, whether Fram offered an AfD, or any other conventional measure, Hawkeye7 and Raystorm as well as sockpuppets like KnowIG (T-C-L) that were summoned by an off-wiki bat signal (perhaps on the Gender Gap email list) would pile on to defend her no matter how polite Fram was.

I take exception to this cavalier statement. I used to work for McDonald’s in High School. I worked every position from cleaning the rest rooms to building the schedule. I was basically an equal to all the other managers, but per company policy I was too young to hold the title of manager, or even assistant manager. Corporate was well aware of my existence and my store owner told me if I wanted, they were going to groom me so when I tuned 18 I would be able to purchase my own franchise. I turned them down as not going to college was not an option for me. To this very day I regret this decision. Had I accepted I would have owned over a dozen stores and been a multimillionaire before I turned 30.

My point being, McDonald’s is an extremely tight outfit. That hamburger “chef” (or as they are still called, “crew member”) would not receive critiques of his work as suggestions. He would receive directions to follow his training. If he continued to produce poor or inconsistent quality, he’d be immediately yanked off the line and assigned to another position or possibly be sent to the basement to watch training videos again. If he kept making mistakes, he wouldn’t be working the grill for a while. If the pattern persisted across his other assignments he’d be fired. McDonald’s does not fuck around. Everything has a procedure in place, from sanitation, to the temperature of the fry oil, to handling sexual harassment issues. Comparing them to the WMF is patently ridiculous.

Earthy Astringent wrote:

eagle wrote:Laura Hale setting unrealistic goals then generates unreasonable pressure on her and her allies to produce quickly -- even if it means turning a GA review into an ArbCom case, or accidentally giving a bunch of BLPs the same birthdate. She would never stand by and take criticism to heart, any more than a McDonald's hamburger chef will stop and listen to criticism from customers about undercooked or misprepared food. So, whether Fram offered an AfD, or any other conventional measure, Hawkeye7 and Raystorm as well as sockpuppets like KnowIG (T-C-L) that were summoned by an off-wiki bat signal (perhaps on the Gender Gap email list) would pile on to defend her no matter how polite Fram was.

I take exception to this cavalier statement. I used to work for McDonald’s in High School. I worked every position from cleaning the rest rooms to building the schedule. I was basically an equal to all the other managers, but per company policy I was too young to hold the title of manager, or even assistant manager. Corporate was well aware of my existence and my store owner told me if I wanted, they were going to groom me so when I tuned 18 I would be able to purchase my own franchise. I turned them down as not going to college was not an option for me. To this very day I regret this decision. Had I accepted I would have owned over a dozen stores and been a multimillionaire before I turned 30.

My point being, McDonald’s is an extremely tight outfit. That hamburger “chef” (or as they are still called, “crew member”) would not receive critiques of his work as suggestions. He would receive directions to follow his training. If he continued to produce poor or inconsistent quality, he’d be immediately yanked off the line and assigned to another position or possibly be sent to the basement to watch training videos again. If he kept making mistakes, he wouldn’t be working the grill for a while. If the pattern persisted across his other assignments he’d be fired. McDonald’s does not fuck around. Everything has a procedure in place, from sanitation, to the temperature of the fry oil, to handling sexual harassment issues. Comparing them to the WMF is patently ridiculous.

This is still somewhat true. My local McDonald's (I don't eat that kind of food often) had a real slide down the quality ladder. I composed a report with time and dates and people's names, complete with a picture of a Big Mac after I took it apart, and emailed it to their owner. The manager disappeared, some of the staff got rotated out, and suddenly the food was back up to their standard.

Zoloft, that was the fault of the district manager. There aren’t that many McD’s in a district that they all can’t be visited. Daily. The owners I knew had their own properties visited and reviewed constantly. And the training videos tell you exactly what the production and conditions of the restaurant are supposed to be like.

To this day, anytime a crew member hands me a bag with the top folded improperly or with the front of the bag not facing me I ask them, “is that how you’re supposed to hand a bag to the customer?”

So apparently saying "Laura Hale" is verboten now. God almighty.

mendaliv wrote:So apparently saying "Laura Hale" is verboten now. God almighty.

That won't hold.
This is like refusing to go to the oncologist and hoping the pancreatic cancer will 'just go away'.

There is now no other plausible person than a very manipulative Laura Hale who has always been at the center of the Fram debacle.

Vigilant wrote:

mendaliv wrote:So apparently saying "Laura Hale" is verboten now. God almighty.

That won't hold.
This is like refusing to go to the oncologist and hoping the pancreatic cancer will 'just go away'.

There is now no other plausible person than a very manipulative Laura Hale who has always been at the center of the Fram debacle.

I'm not quite there yet. I think it's at least explainable as the utter incompetence of the Committee and Clerks causing a massive Streisand Effect.

Taken with the stuff Fram has released, it's pretty damn likely LH is at the center of this. Whether that means corrupt influence, I'm not quite there either. I'm perfectly willing to apply Hanlon's razor (T-H-L) when it comes to WMF and the Committee, who have all behaved like the Keystone Cops (T-H-L). With LH herself, I'm less charitable. I think it's more a situation akin to the Wikicology case wherein he permitted himself to be called a "lecturer" during his RfA when he was not one. Opportunistically availment of incompetence.

It looks like they're still allowing them to use "LH," at least, so I guess they're just doing it to improve our Google rankings on her name.

Get comfy, en.wp folks.

Farms have got their eye on y'all.

I've got a device I don't care about with a clean company sim card.
I think it's time I made an account.

Go home, Crow.
You're drunk.

Earthy Astringent wrote:Zoloft, that was the fault of the district manager. There aren’t that many McD’s in a district that they all can’t be visited. Daily. The owners I knew had their own properties visited and reviewed constantly. And the training videos tell you exactly what the production and conditions of the restaurant are supposed to be like.

To this day, anytime a crew member hands me a bag with the top folded improperly or with the front of the bag not facing me I ask them, “is that how you’re supposed to hand a bag to the customer?”

As a McDonald's shareholder, I am sorry that I picked that particular chain in my example, but my point still holds. Suppose that the spouse of the Chair of the Yum Corporation Board took a job as a crew member in one of their Taco Bell fast food restaurants. Suppose that the District Manager (Fram) visits and criticizes her repeatedly for serious and avoidable mistakes. The problem crew member then files a complaint with the Yum Corp's central office T&S Dept that Fram is "harassing" her, and T&S bans Fram without pay for a year as well as removes him from his District Manager role. Should not all of the other District Managers step in an protest this misuse of the process. Fram's cause would be covered by the mainstream media, and the scandal would not be resolved until both the Board Chair and the spouse are fired/resign.

I wish that Quality Control on WP is as tight and efficient as that at McDonald's. I wish LH took as much pride in her editing as McDonald's crew members take. Instead, she goes for speed and volume just to send impressive numbers back to the Australian Olympic Committee.

Vigilant wrote:

rhindle wrote:

in my opinion - there are around 100 subscribers (all global renamers and stewards) so it's hard for things to stay private

It seems the global renamers list is prone to leaks. Someone could potentially reveal who made this request.

Someone needs to take this to AN/I.

There is something seriously wrong with this particular action and in the processes that govern that list.

What are the odds, given who is involved, that people will say that global renamers are beyond the scope of AN/I?

The probleme on Wikipedia Thus to survive, it is necessary to show solidarity between women. It is whom we are now that 9 % of women (in Febuary 2011 we were 13 %). They have the law of the number and they can infiltrated by the inside the WikiProject Women's sport or the WikiProject Feminism. Otherwise in 2015, there will be only 2 % women who will still be members of Wikipedia. It is sad but that is now the reality of wikipedia (in english, in hebrew or in French). Everybody try to assume good faith but Between feminists we have to stand by each of us. Entre féministes nous devons être solidaires de chacune de nous

10920 wrote:

The probleme on Wikipedia Thus to survive, it is necessary to show solidarity between women. It is whom we are now that 9 % of women (in Febuary 2011 we were 13 %). They have the law of the number and they can infiltrated by the inside the WikiProject Women's sport or the WikiProject Feminism. Otherwise in 2015, there will be only 2 % women who will still be members of Wikipedia. It is sad but that is now the reality of wikipedia (in english, in hebrew or in French). Everybody try to assume good faith but Between feminists we have to stand by each of us. Entre féministes nous devons être solidaires de chacune de nous

Absolutely extraordinary! Where did you find that?

Poetlister wrote:

10920 wrote:

The probleme on Wikipedia Thus to survive, it is necessary to show solidarity between women. It is whom we are now that 9 % of women (in Febuary 2011 we were 13 %). They have the law of the number and they can infiltrated by the inside the WikiProject Women's sport or the WikiProject Feminism. Otherwise in 2015, there will be only 2 % women who will still be members of Wikipedia. It is sad but that is now the reality of wikipedia (in english, in hebrew or in French). Everybody try to assume good faith but Between feminists we have to stand by each of us. Entre féministes nous devons être solidaires de chacune de nous

Absolutely extraordinary! Where did you find that?

That is tame compared to Laura Hale's efforts to throw all men off the gender gap email list back in 2011.

eagle wrote:

Poetlister wrote:

10920 wrote:

The probleme on Wikipedia Thus to survive, it is necessary to show solidarity between women. It is whom we are now that 9 % of women (in Febuary 2011 we were 13 %). They have the law of the number and they can infiltrated by the inside the WikiProject Women's sport or the WikiProject Feminism. Otherwise in 2015, there will be only 2 % women who will still be members of Wikipedia. It is sad but that is now the reality of wikipedia (in english, in hebrew or in French). Everybody try to assume good faith but Between feminists we have to stand by each of us. Entre féministes nous devons être solidaires de chacune de nous

Absolutely extraordinary! Where did you find that?

That is tame compared to Laura Hale's efforts to throw all men off the gender gap email list back in 2011.

Maria Sefidari is the head of a similar group on es.wp

Vigilant wrote:Go home, Crow.
You're drunk.

Well, to be fair, I think he's just conflicted to the point where it looks like he may be drunk. He's now having to defend the WMF, even more than they're willing to defend themselves, in order to advance his personal revenge-agenda against the admins. Not to mention all the stuff he's forcing himself to overlook about Laura Hale, while he just kinda-sorta assumes there's plenty of well-written, positive, happy-happy-Wikipedians-all-getting-along material there that we're deliberately ignoring. (There really isn't.) So maybe it's no wonder that he now thinks you might be Fram (and folks please note, I can attest that none of Mr. Vigilant's posting IPs geolocate to Belgium or the Netherlands).

Normally I'd try to find areas of agreement with him, since (as I've often said) he often makes good points. I mean, I don't think there's much question that our focus on Dr. Hale's "wiki-history" and such would look mean-spirited or even cruel to an outside observer who's seeing it for the first time, or (obviously) to her friends and associates. But he's really reaching pretty far for this one - he's basically having to say, on a near-daily basis, that the WMF staff is a competent organization staffed with rational actors who know how perfectly well how to do their jobs and hold to their commitments. I almost feel sorry for him on that basis alone.

But I think he knows he has a problem, because he's also posting things that make absolutely no sense to anyone who has read anything of his in the past, and the only reason he would do this (other than just to see if we'd notice) is that he realizes he's gone too far. For a good recent example, check out this post from the "Paddo Vigilant" thread:

Only a numbnuts could seriously come to the conclusion that Wikipedia doesn't work not because it cannot work (HTD!), but because the Lizard People are preventing it from working, for [insert whatever conspiracy theory motivator is his choice for the hour].

This from someone who has spent the last 4-5 years blaming the "Lizard People" for absolutely everything wrong with Wikipedia; there literally isn't a single person on the entire planet who has written more verbiage along the lines of "the WP system is fine, the fundamental concept is fine, the rules and procedures are all fine, it's the bad editors/admins who are to blame" than he has. He's doing it right now. There's even the gratuitous insertion of "HTD" as if he thinks it will make him look more "moderate" - more like, say, me for example. But coming from him, the statement is just pure hypocrisy, to a point where it makes practically everything else he's written recently look suspect.

So sure, maybe it's alcohol - that would be better, actually - but I think he's just in over his head this time and can't admit it to himself.

Poetlister wrote:

10920 wrote:

The probleme on Wikipedia Thus to survive, it is necessary to show solidarity between women. It is whom we are now that 9 % of women (in Febuary 2011 we were 13 %). They have the law of the number and they can infiltrated by the inside the WikiProject Women's sport or the WikiProject Feminism. Otherwise in 2015, there will be only 2 % women who will still be members of Wikipedia. It is sad but that is now the reality of wikipedia (in english, in hebrew or in French). Everybody try to assume good faith but Between feminists we have to stand by each of us. Entre féministes nous devons être solidaires de chacune de nous

Absolutely extraordinary! Where did you find that?

My god, by 2019, the gender breakdown must be like 115% men, -14.999999% women, 0.000001% Fae!

Vigilant wrote:Get comfy, en.wp folks.

Farms have got their eye on y'all.

I've got a device I don't care about with a clean company sim card.
I think it's time I made an account.

Isn’t that a little overboard?

CoffeeCrumbs wrote:

Poetlister wrote:

10920 wrote:

The probleme on Wikipedia Thus to survive, it is necessary to show solidarity between women. It is whom we are now that 9 % of women (in Febuary 2011 we were 13 %). They have the law of the number and they can infiltrated by the inside the WikiProject Women's sport or the WikiProject Feminism. Otherwise in 2015, there will be only 2 % women who will still be members of Wikipedia. It is sad but that is now the reality of wikipedia (in english, in hebrew or in French). Everybody try to assume good faith but Between feminists we have to stand by each of us. Entre féministes nous devons être solidaires de chacune de nous

Absolutely extraordinary! Where did you find that?

My god, by 2019, the gender breakdown must be like 115% men, -14.999999% women, 0.000001% Fae!

Still too much Fae.

Poetlister wrote:

10920 wrote:

The probleme on Wikipedia Thus to survive, it is necessary to show solidarity between women. It is whom we are now that 9 % of women (in Febuary 2011 we were 13 %). They have the law of the number and they can infiltrated by the inside the WikiProject Women's sport or the WikiProject Feminism. Otherwise in 2015, there will be only 2 % women who will still be members of Wikipedia. It is sad but that is now the reality of wikipedia (in english, in hebrew or in French). Everybody try to assume good faith but Between feminists we have to stand by each of us. Entre féministes nous devons être solidaires de chacune de nous

Absolutely extraordinary! Where did you find that?

Vigilant linked to it. It's from LH's talk page.

Vigilant wrote:Get comfy, en.wp folks.

Farms have got their eye on y'all.

I've got a device I don't care about with a clean company sim card.
I think it's time I made an account.

I read that whole thread.

A bunch of right wing pricks.

Have fun,

t

eagle wrote:

Earthy Astringent wrote:Zoloft, that was the fault of the district manager. There aren’t that many McD’s in a district that they all can’t be visited. Daily. The owners I knew had their own properties visited and reviewed constantly. And the training videos tell you exactly what the production and conditions of the restaurant are supposed to be like.

To this day, anytime a crew member hands me a bag with the top folded improperly or with the front of the bag not facing me I ask them, “is that how you’re supposed to hand a bag to the customer?”

As a McDonald's shareholder, I am sorry that I picked that particular chain in my example, but my point still holds. Suppose that the spouse of the Chair of the Yum Corporation Board took a job as a crew member in one of their Taco Bell fast food restaurants. Suppose that the District Manager (Fram) visits and criticizes her repeatedly for serious and avoidable mistakes. The problem crew member then files a complaint with the Yum Corp's central office T&S Dept that Fram is "harassing" her, and T&S bans Fram without pay for a year as well as removes him from his District Manager role. Should not all of the other District Managers step in an protest this misuse of the process. Fram's cause would be covered by the mainstream media, and the scandal would not be resolved until both the Board Chair and the spouse are fired/resign.

I wish that Quality Control on WP is as tight and efficient as that at McDonald's. I wish LH took as much pride in her editing as McDonald's crew members take. Instead, she goes for speed and volume just to send impressive numbers back to the Australian Olympic Committee.

........to justify the massive amount she allegedly has extracted as an undeclared paid editor!

RfB

One thing I've said many times both on and off wiki is that everyone makes mistakes, what you do after you've made them is what is important.

You can take what could be called the Trump approach (as I've seen many admins do) and double down on your own error because you're too embarrassed and/or stubborn to admit you fucked up, or you can own it and do what you can to fix it.

If you do the latter people should be generous with their forgiveness.

10920 wrote:

Poetlister wrote:

10920 wrote:

The probleme on Wikipedia Thus to survive, it is necessary to show solidarity between women. It is whom we are now that 9 % of women (in Febuary 2011 we were 13 %). They have the law of the number and they can infiltrated by the inside the WikiProject Women's sport or the WikiProject Feminism. Otherwise in 2015, there will be only 2 % women who will still be members of Wikipedia. It is sad but that is now the reality of wikipedia (in english, in hebrew or in French). Everybody try to assume good faith but Between feminists we have to stand by each of us. Entre féministes nous devons être solidaires de chacune de nous

Absolutely extraordinary! Where did you find that?

Vigilant linked to it. It's from LH's talk page.

No. This was written by a Genevieve2 (T-C-L) who was identified as a sockpuppet of Charlesquebec. The whole Netball wikidrama was sufficiently irrational without various HTD sockpuppets egging on the various sides.

Prend soin de toi Laura I love you
My last message on wikipedia is for you, Laura, the others let me vomit. I love you then let us dance in contact, I shall not return any more on wiki je t'aime prend soin de toi --Cordialement féministe ♀ Cordially feminist Geneviève (talk) 03:35, 4 March 2012 (UTC) --Cordialement féministe ♀ Cordially feminist Geneviève (talk) 03:35, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

linkhttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... =480084618[/link]

Beeblebrox wrote:One thing I've said many times both on and off wiki is that everyone makes mistakes, what you do after you've made them is what is important.

You can take what could be called the Trump approach (as I've seen many admins do) and double down on your own error because you're too embarrassed and/or stubborn to admit you fucked up, or you can own it and do what you can to fix it.

If you do the latter people should be generous with their forgiveness.

Should and will are two completly different things. Wikipedia culture isn't very forgiving, it isn't very empathetic and it hasn't really had an AGF mentality for several years.

eagle wrote:

10920 wrote:
Vigilant linked to it. It's from LH's talk page.

No. This was written by a Genevieve2 (T-C-L) who was identified as a sockpuppet of Charlesquebec. The whole Netball wikidrama was sufficiently irrational without various HTD sockpuppets egging on the various sides.

What are you disagreeing with? It was a message from LH's talk page. That's all I said.

Chowbok... my man...

I think naming Laura Hale is entirely appropriate in discussing this case, since knowing who Laura Hale is and the relationships Laura Hale has are crucial to understanding it. Furthermore, there is nothing in WP:RTV that states that an interested user such as myself cannot refer to a vanished user such as Laura Hale; in fact, it specifically says that it is "not a way to avoid scrutiny". I will continue to scrutinize Laura Hale and discuss Laura Hale until somebody points me to some sort of official policy that would demonstrate that wholly-appropriate and on-topic discussions of Laura Hale are against the rules. It seems to me that an ordinary user would not be able to stifle discussion about his/herself the way that Laura Hale has managed to do so, and I can only think that is because of the influence that Laura Hale has with the WMF, which is indeed how we got here in the first place.—Chowbok ☠ 01:18, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

Vigilant wrote:Chowbok... my man...

I think naming Laura Hale is entirely appropriate in discussing this case, since knowing who Laura Hale is and the relationships Laura Hale has are crucial to understanding it. Furthermore, there is nothing in WP:RTV that states that an interested user such as myself cannot refer to a vanished user such as Laura Hale; in fact, it specifically says that it is "not a way to avoid scrutiny". I will continue to scrutinize Laura Hale and discuss Laura Hale until somebody points me to some sort of official policy that would demonstrate that wholly-appropriate and on-topic discussions of Laura Hale are against the rules. It seems to me that an ordinary user would not be able to stifle discussion about his/herself the way that Laura Hale has managed to do so, and I can only think that is because of the influence that Laura Hale has with the WMF, which is indeed how we got here in the first place.—Chowbok ☠ 01:18, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

I can't seem to get a grip on whom Chowbok is referring to... could it be Lara Hale by any chance?

Worm That Turned wrote:I'm going to close this section, as quite simply, it isn't a discussion that is relevant to this case. I'm aware there is a theory that this is all to do with one individual, who has since vanished, her name's in the section, 9 times in one comment - and as I've done my best to make clear, she does not appear to be central to Fram's ban. Arbcom isn't going to overturn someone's RTV when they specified that they feel harassed, that's a valid reason to vanish. It also happened before the case was opened.
If editors feel that the RTV should be over turned or that new standards should exist for RTV, then that's a community discussion. Here, it's a distraction.

Emphasis mine. I'm pretty sure Worm That Turned violated the non-disclosure agreement with the Foundation.

mendaliv wrote:

Worm That Turned wrote:I'm going to close this section, as quite simply, it isn't a discussion that is relevant to this case. I'm aware there is a theory that this is all to do with one individual, who has since vanished, her name's in the section, 9 times in one comment - and as I've done my best to make clear, she does not appear to be central to Fram's ban. Arbcom isn't going to overturn someone's RTV when they specified that they feel harassed, that's a valid reason to vanish. It also happened before the case was opened.
If editors feel that the RTV should be over turned or that new standards should exist for RTV, then that's a community discussion. Here, it's a distraction.

Emphasis mine. I'm pretty sure Worm That Turned violated the non-disclosure agreement with the Foundation.

Weasel words 'does not appear' and an admission that she is a complainant.
Well, we're half way there already.

That dog won't hunt.
ARBCOM is going to need to tell the community why T&S banned Fram at some point.
I can't see how they're going to get around a failed evidence phase and an obvious story in Laura Hale/Maria Sefidari Huici.

mendaliv wrote:Emphasis mine. I'm pretty sure Worm That Turned violated the non-disclosure agreement with the Foundation.

The hypocrisy of this user at its finest, captured once again.

CoffeeCrumbs wrote:

Poetlister wrote:

10920 wrote:

The probleme on Wikipedia Thus to survive, it is necessary to show solidarity between women. It is whom we are now that 9 % of women (in Febuary 2011 we were 13 %). They have the law of the number and they can infiltrated by the inside the WikiProject Women's sport or the WikiProject Feminism. Otherwise in 2015, there will be only 2 % women who will still be members of Wikipedia. It is sad but that is now the reality of wikipedia (in english, in hebrew or in French). Everybody try to assume good faith but Between feminists we have to stand by each of us. Entre féministes nous devons être solidaires de chacune de nous

Absolutely extraordinary! Where did you find that?

My god, by 2019, the gender breakdown must be like 115% men, -14.999999% women, 0.000001% Fae!

Oh, the wonders of simple-minded extrapolation! But those figures don't add up. Do you mean -0.000001% Fae on the assumption that he's a net negative?

10920 wrote:

Poetlister wrote:

10920 wrote:

The probleme on Wikipedia Thus to survive, it is necessary to show solidarity between women. It is whom we are now that 9 % of women (in Febuary 2011 we were 13 %). They have the law of the number and they can infiltrated by the inside the WikiProject Women's sport or the WikiProject Feminism. Otherwise in 2015, there will be only 2 % women who will still be members of Wikipedia. It is sad but that is now the reality of wikipedia (in english, in hebrew or in French). Everybody try to assume good faith but Between feminists we have to stand by each of us. Entre féministes nous devons être solidaires de chacune de nous

Absolutely extraordinary! Where did you find that?

Vigilant linked to it. It's from LH's talk page.

Thanks. Well, clearly Laura didn't write it, so we can say that she's not the only over the top feminist about.

Edit: Oh I see, a troll pretending to be an over the top feminist.

Randy from Boise wrote:

Vigilant wrote:Get comfy, en.wp folks.

Farms have got their eye on y'all.

I've got a device I don't care about with a clean company sim card.
I think it's time I made an account.

I read that whole thread.

A bunch of right wing pricks.

Have fun,

t

I detect a new trend. Kumioko assumes that anyone he doesn't like must be at least an admin, and probably an Arb. Randy assumes that anyone he doesn't like must be at least a Blairite.

mendaliv wrote:

Worm That Turned wrote:I'm going to close this section, as quite simply, it isn't a discussion that is relevant to this case. I'm aware there is a theory that this is all to do with one individual, who has since vanished, her name's in the section, 9 times in one comment - and as I've done my best to make clear, she does not appear to be central to Fram's ban. Arbcom isn't going to overturn someone's RTV when they specified that they feel harassed, that's a valid reason to vanish. It also happened before the case was opened.
If editors feel that the RTV should be over turned or that new standards should exist for RTV, then that's a community discussion. Here, it's a distraction.

Emphasis mine. I'm pretty sure Worm That Turned violated the non-disclosure agreement with the Foundation.

If this is true, the community needs to know right now why Fram was banned. There is no other reasonable explanation that comes anywhere close.

MrErnie wrote:

mendaliv wrote:

Worm That Turned wrote:I'm going to close this section, as quite simply, it isn't a discussion that is relevant to this case. I'm aware there is a theory that this is all to do with one individual, who has since vanished, her name's in the section, 9 times in one comment - and as I've done my best to make clear, she does not appear to be central to Fram's ban. Arbcom isn't going to overturn someone's RTV when they specified that they feel harassed, that's a valid reason to vanish. It also happened before the case was opened.
If editors feel that the RTV should be over turned or that new standards should exist for RTV, then that's a community discussion. Here, it's a distraction.

Emphasis mine. I'm pretty sure Worm That Turned violated the non-disclosure agreement with the Foundation.

If this is true, the community needs to know right now why Fram was banned. There is no other reasonable explanation that comes anywhere close.

As I recall, WTT has been regurgitating the clearly T&S-contrived claim that it was a multitude of problems or complaints, each of which individually might not have been reason enough to ban him. The problem with that narrative is that it's completely unrealistic. The T&S document surely provides accounts of a number of complaints—I'm sure there are complaints regarding just about every enwiki admin who operates in high-tension topic areas (I can only imagine how many complaints someone like Sandstein has accumulated, probably none worth pursuing, and almost all baseless). I wouldn't be surprised if something similar was the case with Fram: T&S would have loads of complaints, few of which they seriously pursued, and probably none of which merited pursuit.

But when the backlash hit over this ban and it became clear that some referral to the Committee might be done, T&S started cooking up this document. Honestly it might've started even before they knew they were going to go to the Committee, for the possibility that they got records subpoenaed, so they'd have this damaging-looking document that'd get disclosed. Put differently, the T&S document is something that was prepared in anticipation of litigation. Such documents are generally not treated the same as other documentary evidence—like things that are made and kept in the normal course of business—because they are usually created with a specific litigation purpose in mind, are self-serving, and otherwise are not reliable.

The likely reality is that Fram had a lot of background noise and T&S might've been aware of him. But there was surely a triggering event that led to the ban. There may have been a triggering event that led to them starting to collect information on him as well, but there was surely one that led to the ban. These things don't just slowly build up like cholesterol in your coronary arteries. It's more like a stroke: There might be some build-up of platelets in your leg here and there but it's not a big deal, until suddenly a big clot breaks loose and gets stuck in your brain. If Laura Hale isn't the clot that banned Fram, I would be surprised.

This entire discussion is based on the assumption there is a valid reason why Fram was banned and that the T&S ban, if placed, should have some valid reasoning. This would be true if the T&S section was competent...but they aren't.

I think we all know why Fram was banned. It was a combination of his criticism of the WMF software developers and his interactions with Laura Hale as has been pointed out multiple times. I really don't think there is anymore to it than those 2 things although certainly he has done plenty in his career to earn this ban.

Kumioko wrote:This entire discussion is based on the assumption there is a valid reason why Fram was banned and that the T&S ban, if placed, should have some valid reasoning. This would be true if the T&S section was competent...but they aren't.

I think we all know why Fram was banned. It was a combination of his criticism of the WMF software developers and his interactions with Laura Hale as has been pointed out multiple times. I really don't think there is anymore to it than those 2 things although certainly he has done plenty in his career to earn this ban.

No, it has repeatedly been suggested that Fram was only banned because of Laura Hale and her influence in WMF. The original T&S ban may thus have been ordered from above, so the question of T&S competence is irrelevant. If so, the issue is whether T&S have been competent enough to come up with a convincing retrospective justification.

mendaliv wrote:So apparently saying "Laura Hale" is verboten now. God almighty.

I thought they established that after LH exercised her "right to vanish". Any mention of her name after that was thus obviously "outing".

Midsize Jake wrote:

Vigilant wrote:Go home, Crow.
You're drunk.

Well, to be fair, I think he's just conflicted to the point where it looks like he may be drunk. He's now having to defend the WMF, even more than they're willing to defend themselves, in order to advance his personal revenge-agenda against the admins. Not to mention all the stuff he's forcing himself to overlook about Laura Hale, while he just kinda-sorta assumes there's plenty of well-written, positive, happy-happy-Wikipedians-all-getting-along material there that we're deliberately ignoring. (There really isn't.) So maybe it's no wonder that he now thinks you might be Fram (and folks please note, I can attest that none of Mr. Vigilant's posting IPs geolocate to Belgium or the Netherlands).

You're Fram too, so we can't trust what you have to say on the matter!

el84 wrote:

Vigilant wrote:Chowbok... my man...

I think naming Laura Hale is entirely appropriate in discussing this case, since knowing who Laura Hale is and the relationships Laura Hale has are crucial to understanding it. Furthermore, there is nothing in WP:RTV that states that an interested user such as myself cannot refer to a vanished user such as Laura Hale; in fact, it specifically says that it is "not a way to avoid scrutiny". I will continue to scrutinize Laura Hale and discuss Laura Hale until somebody points me to some sort of official policy that would demonstrate that wholly-appropriate and on-topic discussions of Laura Hale are against the rules. It seems to me that an ordinary user would not be able to stifle discussion about his/herself the way that Laura Hale has managed to do so, and I can only think that is because of the influence that Laura Hale has with the WMF, which is indeed how we got here in the first place.—Chowbok ☠ 01:18, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

I can't seem to get a grip on whom Chowbok is referring to... could it be Lara Hale by any chance?

It is certainly within the realm of possibility.

mendaliv:

You mentioned Sandstein. What's interesting is that Sandstein's actions in the Eric Corbett AE case were easily worse than any of the possible offences by Fram (pointed out by those who combed through his 2019 contributions/actions).

Midsize Jake wrote:

Vigilant wrote:Go home, Crow.
You're drunk.

Well, to be fair, I think he's just conflicted to the point where it looks like he may be drunk. He's now having to defend the WMF, even more than they're willing to defend themselves, in order to advance his personal revenge-agenda against the admins.

...........and against the powers that be at Wikipediocracy, who have shown him the door three times. Basically, if WPO advocates something, he is against it. He's capable of some amazing contortions, defending the WMF bureaucracy as the enemy of his enemies.

I think he might be double-jointed.

RfB

Randy from Boise wrote:

Midsize Jake wrote:

Vigilant wrote:Go home, Crow.
You're drunk.

Well, to be fair, I think he's just conflicted to the point where it looks like he may be drunk. He's now having to defend the WMF, even more than they're willing to defend themselves, in order to advance his personal revenge-agenda against the admins.

...........and against the powers that be at Wikipediocracy, who have shown him the door three times. Basically, if WPO advocates something, he is against it. He's capable of some amazing contortions, defending the WMF bureaucracy as the enemy of his enemies.

I think he might be double-jointed.

RfB

The term for this degree of limber is goatse'd.

mendaliv wrote:The likely reality is that Fram had a lot of background noise and T&S might've been aware of him. But there was surely a triggering event that led to the ban. There may have been a triggering event that led to them starting to collect information on him as well, but there was surely one that led to the ban. These things don't just slowly build up like cholesterol in your coronary arteries. It's more like a stroke: There might be some build-up of platelets in your leg here and there but it's not a big deal, until suddenly a big clot breaks loose and gets stuck in your brain. If Laura Hale isn't the clot that banned Fram, I would be surprised.

In this analogy, Trust and Safety is Nurse_Ratched (T-H-L).

Crow is getting pretty frisky.
https://www.wikipediasucks.co/forum/vie ... =50#p11773
https://www.wikipediasucks.co/forum/vie ... 772#p11772


Hey buddy, we didn't realize these training exercises would get you so riled.
We'll try to make them a bit more simple in line with your apparent capabilities.

Randy from Boise wrote:

Midsize Jake wrote:Well, to be fair, I think he's just conflicted to the point where it looks like he may be drunk. He's now having to defend the WMF, even more than they're willing to defend themselves, in order to advance his personal revenge-agenda against the admins.

...........and against the powers that be at Wikipediocracy, who have shown him the door three times. Basically, if WPO advocates something, he is against it. He's capable of some amazing contortions, defending the WMF bureaucracy as the enemy of his enemies.

That's true in many cases, maybe even in most cases, but not so much in this one, IMO. His highest aspiration is to see people like Drmies, Sandstein, Ritchie333, Eric Corbett, Cassianto, Black Kite, Iridescent, Bbb23, Jessica Wade, etc., etc., and yes, Fram, all get banned, preferably after being thoroughly discredited and exposed as horrible people. And it isn't so much that all other considerations are "secondary"; he can walk and chew gum at the same time, but really he just sees things mostly in terms of whether they further this agenda or obstruct it. Normally Wikipediocracy wouldn't obstruct it, and TBH maybe we shouldn't obstruct it - but now, in this particular case, we're obstructing it as far as he's concerned.

The current situation is almost purely transactional from his perspective - he's given up on us, he's long-since given up on Arbcom, and of course he never trusted the supposedly "good" admins in the first place (there aren't enough of them anyway). He realizes that posting 30 times a day on what nearly amounts to his own personal forum about how awful these people are isn't going to work either. The only entity left that can get the job done is the WMF. It isn't that he likes the WMF or respects anyone who works for the WMF - if anything, he thinks they're idiots for waiting as long as they have to start banning these people. But they're all he's got, so they must be supported. Meanwhile, he sees us here as trying to weaken their resolve (which was already pretty weak to begin with), so he's angrier at us than ever.

It's like he's had a short glimpse of the promised land, but now the bad people, like us, are trying to snatch it away. He'd be less angry if he'd never glimpsed the promised land at all.

Midsize Jake wrote:

Randy from Boise wrote:

Midsize Jake wrote:Well, to be fair, I think he's just conflicted to the point where it looks like he may be drunk. He's now having to defend the WMF, even more than they're willing to defend themselves, in order to advance his personal revenge-agenda against the admins.

...........and against the powers that be at Wikipediocracy, who have shown him the door three times. Basically, if WPO advocates something, he is against it. He's capable of some amazing contortions, defending the WMF bureaucracy as the enemy of his enemies.

That's true in many cases, maybe even in most cases, but not so much in this one, IMO. His highest aspiration is to see people like Drmies, Sandstein, Ritchie333, Eric Corbett, Cassianto, Black Kite, Iridescent, Bbb23, Jessica Wade, etc., etc., and yes, Fram, all get banned, preferably after being thoroughly discredited and exposed as horrible people. And it isn't so much that all other considerations are "secondary"; he can walk and chew gum at the same time, but really he just sees things mostly in terms of whether they further this agenda or obstruct it. Normally Wikipediocracy wouldn't obstruct it, and TBH maybe we shouldn't obstruct it - but now, in this particular case, we're obstructing it as far as he's concerned.

The current situation is almost purely transactional from his perspective - he's given up on us, he's long-since given up on Arbcom, and of course he never trusted the supposedly "good" admins in the first place (there aren't enough of them anyway). He realizes that posting 30 times a day on what nearly amounts to his own personal forum about how awful these people are isn't going to work either. The only entity left that can get the job done is the WMF. It isn't that he likes the WMF or respects anyone who works for the WMF - if anything, he thinks they're idiots for waiting as long as they have to start banning these people. Meanwhile, he sees us here as trying to weaken their resolve (which was already pretty weak to begin with), so he's angrier at us than ever.

It's like he's had a short glimpse of the promised land, but now the bad people, like us, are trying to snatch it away. He'd be less angry if he'd never glimpsed the promised land at all.

CCTV nails down the miscreant.

Vigilant wrote:Crow is getting pretty frisky.
https://www.wikipediasucks.co/forum/vie ... =50#p11773
https://www.wikipediasucks.co/forum/vie ... 772#p11772


Hey buddy, we didn't realize these training exercises would get you so riled.
We'll try to make them a bit more simple in line with your apparent capabilities.

My take:

The way a crow
Shook down on me
The dust of snow
From a hemlock tree

Has given my heart
A change of mood
And saved some part
Of a day I had rued.

Robert Frost, "Dust of Snow" (1923).