Fram blocked by User:WMFOffice for 1 year

Guido den Broeder · Unread post by **Guido den Broeder** » Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:45 pm

Vigilant wrote:Doc James has a few things to answer for as well.

Absolutely. Starting with some very dubious edits to Chronic Fatigue Syndrome.

Kumioko · Unread post by **Kumioko** » Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:52 pm

10920 wrote:WMF and their Fram business has done more damage than Bbb, I think, not to downplay whatever he does.

I hear the death knells for the Wikipedia as we once knew it.

On some aspects I agree with you here. People sometimes refer to being an editor on Wikipedia as seeing how the sausage is made and if that's the case then this whole Frammageddon business is akin to a recall on the sausages because people kept finding bits of plastic mixed in the meat.

It did some damage, but the long term effects are yet to be seen. My personal opinion has been that more people left than those that made public statements about it both for and against the WMF's decision. I have also had a couple people tell me that some high level people at the WMF will be leaving soon partially due to the mess over Fram. If enough active people leave that it causes some more backlogs, bots to stop, etc. then it could cause Wikipedia to fail. What's more likely to happen though is that for the foreseeable future the WMF will use this as an excuse to pander donations and Wikipedia will continue on as articles get more and more stale due to the increasing lack of editors willing to put up with the meaningless bullshit and abusiveness of the Wikipedia/WMF culture.

Vigilant · Unread post by **Vigilant** » Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:58 pm

A metric fuckton of irony on this page.
https://fanlore.org/wiki/Fan_History_Wi ... Laura_Hale

Vigilant · Unread post by **Vigilant** » Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:01 pm

Fram tripped over this group. Here's an example of the fuckery they were doing.
It's been talked about on here before, but it takes on a new light when viewed through a lens of modernity.

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants: ... ch_Oceania
What odd friends you have, Courcelles (T-C-L)

Legal name of chapter or nonchapter group
Outreach Oceania

User name
LauraHale as submitter, LauraHale , Hawkeye7 , Courcelles , Chzz as participants requesting funding

User location (country)
Australia, Australia, United States, United Kingdom

Grant contact name
LauraHale

Grant contact username or email
User:LauraHale: [[1]], [[2]]

Grant contact title (position)
Outreach Oceania Coordinator, Vice President of Wikimedia Australia, History of the Paralympic Movement in Australia Wikimedian in Residence

Full project name
Outreach Oceania: Micronesia

Project lead name
Laura Hale

Event name
Outreach Oceania: Micronesia

Event Web site
Outreach Oceania: Micronesia

Provisional target start date
27 January 2012

Provisional completion date
16 February 2012

Event location (city)
Chuuk and Kosrae in the Federated States of Micronesia, and Majuro in the Republic of the Marshall Islands

Amount requested (remember to specify currency!)
$11,923.50 USD

Endorsements
Wikimedia Australia has offered public support the project.

Also known as, "Please send me and my friends on a free vacation for three weeks in paradise, all paid for by the donor's money. By the way, the chapter where I'm Vice President has also endorsed having you all pay for our vacation. We totally promise we're going to work all day...*smirk*"

Funding is being sought from (but not guaranteed) WM AU to cover the Australian participants and is not being requested as part of a WMF funding request.

"We're also pillaging the chapter funds! Yay, us!"

Transportation Airfare: Canberra to Cairns Out of pocket organiser expense paid AUD $630.00 2 $1,260.00 $1,260.00 $1,260.00
Transportation Airfare: Cairns to Micronesia Out of pocket organiser expense paid AUD $1,369.68 2 $2,739.36 $2,739.36 $2,739.36
Transportation Booking fees for Australian participants Out of pocket organiser expense paid AUD $152.25 2 $304.50 $304.50 $308.90

"We've spent a bunch of our own money to make you feel guilty... now give us the rest of our vacay money!"

The talk page is a hoot where they snap and snarl at anyone who would dare question their NEED to go on vacay.
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_ ... ch_Oceania

At the end, when they realize they aren't getting the filthy lucre for their jaunt, they resort to attacks that will probably seem familiar to people reading this topic.

This request was not withdrawn: Please deny

I want to be clear: It became obvious to me at a certain point: The grant was not going to be supported. I'm not sure if this awareness came before or after a WMF fellow made comments in front of other chapter members at a conference that the applicants were looking for a free beach vacation, when a now WMF fellow who I had constantly championed came in and said culturally insensitive things that made it impossible to show the grant application to locals, or when one of the people over seeing the grant implied I was trying to black mail the Foundation into funding the grant. Whatever the case, it was clear the WMF was not going to support the grant. Thus, there was no reason to pursue a grant the Foundation was not going to support. It should remain open until such a time the WMF denies it because I will not formally deny it. If the WMF were to reconsider funding with an awareness of time issues have severely jeopardised doing it on the proposed time, allow for a postponement of the grant, allow for the removal of Chzz and the replacement or non-replacement of another candidate, that would be acceptable. For that reason, it remains open until such a time the WMF denies it. Funding for myself is not acceptable. It was not requested. This grant needs two people doing in person outreach. You cannot go into multiple classrooms in a short period of time, work with students, separately work with staff, reach out to local GLAM people, talk to the local government and do content development as an individual. I feel my credentials were questioned because my expertise in multiple areas related to this outreach was dismissed. But yes, this grant is open until such a time that it is denied by the WMF. (Also, I don't appreciate being accused of being sulky and being passive aggressive. Whether or not that was Asaf's intention, he used arguments against a woman that have been historically used to oppress them. I am making the good faith assumption that Asaf did not intend to do and what we have here is a giant communications problem.) --LauraHale 10:13, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

This request was indeed withdrawn. Your first few lines in this very section say so clearly -- you were disappointed the WMF is not prepared to fund the grant in its entirety, ignored a counter-offer the WMF made, and simply stopped responding to my questions and requests to continue the conversation. I had to reach out to you on IRC last night just to get a straight answer about this grant's status.
Clearly, when you do not get your way, you choose to resort to any tactic, however manipulative or cynical. You deliberately keep conflating other WMF staff's comments, made verbally elsewhere and not in this grant discussion, and a community member's (not a WMF fellow at the time) opinion (one of several respondents which you solicited on IRC), with the WMF's reasoned position as articulated by the WMF's authorized representative for grant discussions, i.e. me.
Readers of this discussion are welcome to read back and see that none of your grievances above (I make no comment about their validity, it is not my place to adjudicate them) are relevant to the conversation I have been trying to have with you about your proposal. I did not question your credentials, I did not say "culturally insensitive things", and I was continually given the bait-and-switch instead of straight answers to my questions.
As for your playing of the gender card, I am disappointed, but not surprised. If you would like that, I am happy to paste a transcript of our little IRC chat from 14 hours ago, and the discrepancy between your behavior and position in private and the facade you are putting on in public will be revealed. Or you could apologize for accusing me of misogyny. Ijon 17:30, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

I have read it. The request was denied. WMF was unwilling to fund the requested grant. I informed WM-AU and the people in Micronesia accordingly. I cancelled the air tickets which had already been purchased. This incurred me a 35% cancellation fee.
I never indicated that I would accept any counter offers. I was not bargaining for tomatoes at the market. I certainly did consider the proposal that I personally fund ¾ of it to be any sense a reasonable response.
I am appalled by your insensitivity, your incompetence and your misogyny. I am also taken aback your attempt to claim that the request was withdrawn rather than denied while simultaneously admitting that it was indeed denied. Hawkeye7 18:40, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Nice one Asaf, now you are calling Laura manipulative and cynical, when she doesn't "get her way". I hope you read your last comments again in a couple of days, and consider if you might have been out-of-line. I'm not going to accuse you of anything but your earlier comments might not have been misogynistic but they are leaning towards it now. I can understand everyone's frustration but this is getting uncivil, and testing the boundaries of good conduct. I would like to point our that "WMF's reasoned positioned articulated by the WMF's authorized representative" doesn't really mean anything beyond the concerned staff member, which, just about anyone can and often does disagree with. Depending on who you ask, those "reasoned" positions are often wrong. I do like Hawkeye's analogy of haggling for tomatoes at the market, that is what it seems to have become, with all the inspection of authenticity, yelling and rudeness. I hope you realize you are not just insulting Laura at this point, but upsetting others, and generally not behaving in the way the people who know you, would have expected from you. Theo10011 18:41, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

There is a gender gap problem on WMF projects, and it appears to potentially be a top down problem. We have Erik Moeller and other high level WMF functionaries who caused big problems on the gender gap list by claiming that their dominance was silencing women was sexist and their voices deserved to be heard, even at the expense of women's participation in conversations about resolving the gender gap. We have Liam Gallagher who, according to what four people at WM-UK told me, had pictures of his girl friend in a sexually explicit positions, appear before everyone on the conference's over head projector at important movement conference with at least eleven influential Movement women in the room. Yes, it was only a few seconds because a woman got it off by moving the mouse to shut down the screen saver.) We have Asaf engaging in misogynistic wording, using arguments historically used to repress women. (This perception appears clear: Who are the three chapter people WMF appears to have biggest problem with in the Chapters movement? All women, with the possible exception of one other person. The WMF doesn't appear to run across this problem with men. The WMF does not appear to build up movement women who do things.)--LauraHale 19:43, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

What Asaf doesn't appear to under is this: The problem here is NOT LauraHale. The problem is WMF and its processes. If I can't figure out how to successfully apply for this, it is a problem for the WMF. If the WMF is so short on money that it can't fund projects like this, it is a problem. If the WMF cannot support member run initiatives, it is a problem. If the WMF cannot read what is written and ask specific questions that specifically deal with the grant as propose, it is a problem. If the WMF appears to retaliate against chapters because one of their members does something not approved of by the WMF, it is a problem with the WMF. If the WMF can do similar programs that members propose but cannot provide that information to insure success for similar measures by participants who have greater cultural understanding, it is a problem.--LauraHale 19:43, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

Oh. And question for Asaf: When was the last time a granting body to the WMF accused WMF of being shrill? Of being passive-aggressive because the WMF didn't get a grant the WMF thought would be beneficial to their programming? Of sour grapes because the WMF didn't get what they want? I am just assuming that most granting bodies treat the WMF civilly when the WMF doesn't get grants. Maybe I'm wrong.--LauraHale 19:43, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

Dear readers,

There's a lot more on that talk page.

Read for yourself and imagine what must have happened in the background with this Laura Hale grifter when she found herself getting corrected by Fram about her paid project to write an ass load of crappy articles about ParaOlympians.

Imagine how much more powerful she must have felt now that she's married to the Chair of the Board.

Imagine just how terrible her wrath must be with this new found power.

#FreeFram
#AdminDown

Moral Hazard · Unread post by **Moral Hazard** » Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:25 pm

The WMF is being squeezed by dumb, insufferable grifters, who accuse anybody who raises questions of being misogynist or Gamergaters.

Vigilant · Unread post by **Vigilant** » Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:25 pm

And on we go...

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/GLAMcamp_Amsterdam

LauraHale: Need travel funding to cover flight & bus. (Canberra/Sydney to Amsterdam.) Currently a Wikipedian in Residence at the Australian Paralympic Committee + National Sport Information Centre, board member at Wikimedia Australia, and am involved in setting up GLAM outreach Outreach Oceania.

She went as mentioned in the Outreach Oceania shit show which means the WMF paid her way.

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WikiCon ... M_movement

A scholarship would be required. I would be attending from Canberra. I would require a visa for an American traveling to India.

She went

Helping out a friend who wants to go traveling with her to Oceania
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Meta:Re ... Courcelles

Support I've found Courcelles to be extremely helpful, to be knowledgable of Wikipedia policy, Commons policy and other WMF related project guidelines. He does good work and tirelessly works to improve the project. He has arbitrator support and Sue Gardner. No evidence of any problems caused by this valuable contributor. --LauraHale 03:53, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

LauraHale was editing Meta just minutes before she voted. I think it safe to say they came upon it on their own. Tiptoety talk 06:57, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

No. LauraHale is an active participant on IRC and friend of many here but not an active Meta user. This page is not easy to find and would require a link. We do not display the vote as other sister projects do. This is a clear case of mass canvassing, and I have had that confirmed by multiple people who use the -en Wiki room. This is extremely disappointing, and if Meta had a policy against such canvassing I would have requested at least 6 blocks. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:57, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_ ... holarships

Depending on the nature of the conference, I think being a participant could be interpreted as being a speaker. Example: Open Space organised unconference. There are no formal speakers in a situation like that. I'd assume an application in such a situation would say something like "Will be an active participant in sessions I attend." --LauraHale 06:10, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

I'm guessing 'speakers' get more cash than regular participants.

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants: ... m_GLAMCamp

This Wikimedia Participation Support request was funded in the fiscal year 2011-12. A report is available.

Amount requested (remember to specify currency!) $1,920 AUD

Budget breakdown
Travel
$50 AUD round trip for a Greyhound bus from Canberra to Sydney International Airport (Plane would run $200 each way. Rental car would be $80 each way. This is the cheapest alternative to get to the most affordable airport within a five hour drive of Canberra.)
$1,750 AUD for airfare from SYD to AMS via Southern China Air. (This is the absolute cheapest ticket. Travel dates of depart SYD November 30, depart AMS December 7.)
$120 AUD for accommodation for 2-4 December (added at organizers' request) Total: $1,920 AUD.

Accommodation
$0. Will pay my own accommodation as I will be staying extra days given the flight length. May possibly get accommodation through the Camp.

Note: Chapter funding was requested to attend. As the Camp was announced late, there was no room in the budget to give a grant to attend this specific event.

The report!
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants: ... amp/Report

It goes on and on and on and on and on and on...

This post was only on stuff in the first 30 bits of her meta history...

Kumioko · Unread post by **Kumioko** » Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:12 pm

Moral Hazard wrote:The WMF is being squeezed by dumb, insufferable grifters, who accuse anybody who raises questions of being misogynist or Gamergaters.

I couldn't agree with you more here. They do have some good people, but they are overshadowed by the incompetent, the corrupt and the obnoxious.

mendaliv · Unread post by **mendaliv** » Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:27 am

I'll never understand this need to have in-person conferences and meetups for people on the other side of the goddamn world. Maybe if you're some elite specialist that's going to train people who will in turn train other people, you might be able to justify it, but why in the hell aren't at least half of these things done as webinars?

Like, okay, I get that it's valuable to get together and network and make friends in person, but how much of that directly results in writing an encyclopedia? And then, how much is more a matter for professional development?

Vigilant · Unread post by **Vigilant** » Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:30 am

mendaliv wrote:I'll never understand this need to have in-person conferences and meetups for people on the other side of the goddamn world. Maybe if you're some elite specialist that's going to train people who will in turn train other people, you might be able to justify it, but why in the hell aren't at least half of these things done as webinars?

Like, okay, I get that it's valuable to get together and network and make friends in person, but how much of that directly results in writing an encyclopedia? And then, how much is more a matter for professional development?

Those vacations won’t just take themselves.

Unread post by **tarantino** » Sat Jul 13, 2019 1:35 am

Maria and Laura got a 1035 Euro grant to attend the 2013 IPC Alpine Skiing World Championships in La Molina, Spain.

Maria wrote: Notes:
1. LauraHale is currently in Spain and will have been there for approximately six weeks prior to the start of the event. Her eventual travel back to Australia is not being requested. (LauraHale is willing to discuss offwiki why she is currently in Spain.)

mendaliv · Unread post by **mendaliv** » Sat Jul 13, 2019 1:43 am

Oh that is the most horseshit argument I've ever seen for why attendance was necessary. Were photos of this event at least uploaded to Commons???

mendaliv · Unread post by **mendaliv** » Sat Jul 13, 2019 1:46 am

Pine has posted more e-mails (and restored the original e-mail thread from the archives again). Link

Unread post by **Midsize Jake** » Sat Jul 13, 2019 1:53 am

mendaliv wrote:I'll never understand this need to have in-person conferences and meetups for people on the other side of the goddamn world. Maybe if you're some elite specialist that's going to train people who will in turn train other people, you might be able to justify it, but why in the hell aren't at least half of these things done as webinars?

I dunno... Webinars are really only useful when the audience is motivated to learn whatever it is you're presenting; otherwise people just fall asleep on the other end and you have no way of knowing. The goal of Outreach Oceania was "introducing students to Wikimedia Foundation projects and assisting them in learning how to use them." Who could possibly be motivated for something like that?

Like, okay, I get that it's valuable to get together and network and make friends in person, but how much of that directly results in writing an encyclopedia? And then, how much is more a matter for professional development?

I think it depends mostly on how you define the term "value." Obviously these trips weren't going to result in a significant, much less substantial, number of new Wikipedia articles (bearing in mind that these would be written in whatever Micronesian language or dialect the attendees were native in). But, if the goal is to prove to Big Donors that you have "global reach," and that therefore your "movement" is global and can be perceived as more viable than certain critics might suggest, then the trip could still be seen as having value for the organization.

In this case, Dr. (or "Ms." at that time) Hale and her cohorts simply went too far by asking the WMF to send them to an island paradise before they had established a reliable track record. If they had done so after holding seminars in, say, Yangon, Calcutta, or even just Hackensack NJ, then she might have had a bit more success.

Unread post by **Midsize Jake** » Sat Jul 13, 2019 1:55 am

mendaliv wrote:Oh that is the most horseshit argument I've ever seen for why attendance was necessary. Were photos of this event at least uploaded to Commons???

Wait a minute, you posted this before I posted what I posted... where's the horseshit argument? (You've got to work on this post-no-links tendency of yours, it can get confusing in a high-volume thread situation.)

mendaliv · Unread post by **mendaliv** » Sat Jul 13, 2019 1:58 am

Midsize Jake wrote:
mendaliv wrote:Oh that is the most horseshit argument I've ever seen for why attendance was necessary. Were photos of this event at least uploaded to Commons???
Wait a minute, you posted this before I posted what I posted... where's the horseshit argument? (You've got to work on this post-no-links tendency of yours, it can get confusing in a high-volume thread situation.)

Talking about the 2013 IPC Alpine Skiing World Championships La Molina grant request, where the claim of need was:

Attending this event as accredited media is key to developing the Australian Paralympic history project on a global level by creating a case study for a national sport organization outside Australia, and aids in getting a non-Australian Wikipedian accredited to attend the Sochi Paralympics.

I'm calling bullshit on that.

Unread post by **Midsize Jake** » Sat Jul 13, 2019 2:17 am

mendaliv wrote:Talking about the 2013 IPC Alpine Skiing World Championships La Molina grant request, where the claim of need was:
Attending this event as accredited media is key to developing the Australian Paralympic history project on a global level by creating a case study for a national sport organization outside Australia, and aids in getting a non-Australian Wikipedian accredited to attend the Sochi Paralympics.
I'm calling bullshit on that.

Ah. Yes, I think we can confidently expect general agreement on that one.

To be fair, though, there was probably no way to formulate a claim-of-need for such an activity that wouldn't have amounted to some sort of equine/bovine excrement.

Capeo · Unread post by **Capeo** » Sat Jul 13, 2019 3:09 am

I was scrolling through this thread earlier at work and saw that there seemed to be quite public evidence that Hale and Sefidari are married and that they were married when T&S stepped in (and Sefidari was offering to mentor Hale). Has anyone brought up that astounding COI anywhere on WP or meta or on any WMF public facing page? I can’t find anything. I can’t see how Sefidari could possibly keep her seat if this is the case. I know she recused but she hasn’t publicly said why she recused, correct? It’s rather relevant. Not to mention, the whole board must be aware of this, which makes throwing this to ArbCom particularly icky because what is ArbCom going to do even if they are aware of it? If that’s the case they hoisted a mess, with possible legal ramifications regarding the WMF, onto a volunteer body.

Unread post by **Midsize Jake** » Sat Jul 13, 2019 4:02 am

Capeo wrote:I was scrolling through this thread earlier at work and saw that there seemed to be quite public evidence that Hale and Sefidari are married and that they were married when T&S stepped in (and Sefidari was offering to mentor Hale). Has anyone brought up that astounding COI anywhere on WP or meta or on any WMF public facing page? I can’t find anything.

Let me start by saying it shouldn't have been a COI issue for Ms. Sefidari to "mentor" Dr. Hale, since all she was really offering to do was to review her (Hale's) Spanish-to-English translation attempts. As it happened, after that offer was accepted, there were hardly any more Spanish-to-English translation attempts made by Dr. Hale anyway - I'd say there were "none," but I suppose there might have been one or two that were later deleted.

Ms. Sefidari's answer to the Conflict of Interest disclosure question during the WMF Board Elections of 2015 used the word "spouse" instead of "wife," but to be fair, the question itself used the word "spouse," and clever Wikipedians might have noted that she founded the LGBT Wikiproject on the Spanish WP (as she clearly states both here and on her WMF user page), so presumably "spouse" would have referred to someone female.

What the Wikipedians voting in that election wouldn't have thought to do would have been to look through all the photos of Sefidari that had been uploaded to Commons, identify people photographed with her, check to see if they had published Ph.D. dissertations, read the dissertations, and having done so, finally put two and two together. (Or, barring that, go to Madrid and actually look up her marriage license in the public records.)

On the other hand, for just that teensy little bit of extra historical context, it might be noted that the 2015 Board Elections took place only one month before same-sex marriage became legal in all 50 states of the USA. At that time, it's doubtful that many English Wikipedia users would have known that same-sex marriage had been legal in Spain since 2005. (For many of them, I suspect it's doubtful that they knew that until last month.) So, who knows.

I can’t see how Sefidari could possibly keep her seat if this is the case. I know she recused but she hasn’t publicly said why she recused, correct? It’s rather relevant.

Relevant, sure, but even in the unlikely event that "legal ramifications" amounts to an actual legal case, I'd expect that the recusal (even without explanation) would be enough to indemnify both her and the WMF from any sort of legal blowback.

That wouldn't exclude PR blowback, of course. If there's enough of that, then IMO she'll probably have to resign - but the WMF folks still wouldn't be under any obligation to apologize to Mr. Fram or rescind the one-year ban.

Vigilant · Unread post by **Vigilant** » Sat Jul 13, 2019 5:04 am

A funny moment in this bleak hellscape

https://en.wikinews.org/wiki/User_talk: ... _user_page

Laura Hale deleting my user page
Can you help me to understand this? What's the appropriate place for me to lodge a complaint?--Jimbo Wales (talk) 12:58, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

I'd suggest asking Laura directly, Jimmy. I tend to think she did the right thing; but, would be happy to email you a copy of the last deleted revision. Beyond that, and just like most wikis, there's regular Dispute resolution (if a nice cup of tea doesn't get things sorted).
Our 'most-shrill' critics were engaged in dedicated trolling of the discussion, and ignoring the far, far, more-important questions about journalism. I take it for-granted that they — with ongoing negative coverage via The Signpost — discouraged you from asking people on Wikinews where we'd got to.
My attempt to start that discussion, albeit somewhat poorly-framed, was with the intention of pointing out we have looked at some of the 'institutional problems' that plague for-profit journalism. To be honest, when you take a long, hard look, there never really was a 'golden age' in the craft. The two periods the United States holds up are — in the first instance — William Randolph Hearst versus Joseph Pulitzer. Without that prestige, associated with the Pulitzer Prize, it would be remembered as two meglomaniacs - of similar dubious character to Rupert Murdoch - battling for 'ratings'.
The second 'golden age', is — unsurprisingly — the downfall of Richard M. Nixon. A lot of gambling, and calculated risks, led to that journalistic milestone.
It also led to the establishment of journalism as a profession; poisoned with the notion there is a mass-reproducible formula for news; in even viewing news from such a perspective, one is then seduced by the business side of turning 'formula' into 'cash'.
The Fourth Estate became a 'means to power', and Levenson was inevitable (if they didn't get away with it indefninitely).
That is the perspective I see in our critics; so-used to swimming in a sea of un-analysed data, they believe there must be a deluge of news; even if it is all echo-chamber mis-information delivered in a fog of drama, commercial breaks, and talking-head armchair-polemicists.
I apologise for not having the foresight to see that attempting to have an open discussion would end in that way. I tend to think we must be doing something right — if we provoke such determination to commit sororicide. I mean, if I can keep wikinewsie.org mostly up-and-running whilst unemployed, and even whilst homeless, how difficult would it be for them just to fork off? Nobody from enWN is likely to join them; we've set ourselves high standards; high-enough that we've had journalism students pointed at the project as a place to do coursework, repeatedly. Might want to ask Chad Tew about what "a small group of thoughtful, committed people" can do.
Is there any way to restart a conversation — without such fierce trolling and interference? I sincerely doubt it — at least were it public; I've had certain vocal contributors from The Signpost ask me — if I wouldn't mind — just nipping off and killing myself, because my existence offends them.
I'll drop you an email; but, any discussion would likely need picked up on my work email; I am absurdly busy. In the meantime, some quintessentially British humour about newspapers. :-) --Brian McNeil / talk 00:27, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

https://en.wikinews.org/w/index.php?tit ... _talk_page

Re: Restored talk page
Hi Jimmy, my apologies for archiving your page without first consulting you. As a non-involved admin who has kept out of the current round of drama, I was attempting to de-escalate the situation for all parties. This is standard procedure on English Wikinews, where we are policy-documentation light. The content on your talk page was not deleted, but archived at User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 1. I will refrain from archiving your page again without your permission. Sincerely, LauraHale (talk) 14:38, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Cheeky

Vigilant · Unread post by **Vigilant** » Sat Jul 13, 2019 5:11 am

She went to the Sochi Olympics and the London ParaOlympics
https://wikinewsreporter.wordpress.com/ ... ic-budget/

All told, assuming actual cost of airline tickets, going to Sochi cost me €551.05 / US$766.18. That isn’t that much. Going to the London Paralympics, the cost was around AUD$7,500. Costs were lower because I did not fly to Sochi, because I did not attend the whole games, because I missed meals, because I bought fewer souvenirs. (It was AUD$15,000 for two people. This included everything from airfare to food to internet.)

Girl on the spend.

Vigilant · Unread post by **Vigilant** » Sat Jul 13, 2019 5:15 am

She went to Buenos Aires in 2012 for the Wiki Women's camp...
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File ... ro_028.JPG

English: WikWomenCamp was held in Buenos Aires from 23 to 25 May 2012. This image is from the conference. Beria Lima, LauraHale and Beatriz who helped make this conference possible. Siska was also responsible. We held her jacket to keep her in frame but she is not facing the camera.

Beria Lima who has also been a consistent ally for Laura over the years.

Sure doesn't look like wikimedia got their money's worth.

You'll never guess who else showed up...

Was this a long distance booty call?

She seemed to enjoy herself even if nothing really got done.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia ... iWomenCamp

In the another vein she shits all over Larry Sanger when he complained about the porn problem on commons.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia ... roblem?%22

All the shitheels make an appearance in this thread.

@ Jayen466: You took it there. You got accused of pushing an agenda and derailing the conversation. You can be disappointed all you want but it doesn't change the fact that most of us rarely come across pornography in our normal editing. I'm disappointed that you would push your anti-pornography agenda at the expense of the gendergap issue. I haven't stumbled across a single piece of pornography in the past six months on English Wikipedia, English Wikinews or Commons unless I was specifically looking for it or one of the gendergap pornography conversation derailers was explicitly linking to it. Seriously, what are your interests that you are viewing pornography ALL THE TIME that you need it filtered? This needs ZERO attention unless contextualised against more research that suggests this is a problem or the main stream media picks up the story again. --LauraHale (talk) 21:56, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

Jesus fuck!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Wiki ... _Laura.jpg

We discussed picture policy early on. Everyone is comfortable with their pictures. --LauraHale (talk) 05:59, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

I can't see how.

Some of Laura's quality 'work product'

Why women do not edit Wikipedia and reasons why they do. In flowchart form. Lists are so Wikipedia 2.0.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Wiki ... e_(30).JPG

I mean, what the actual fuck?!
That's not anything like a flow chart on any human settled planet.

mendaliv · Unread post by **mendaliv** » Sat Jul 13, 2019 5:22 am

because I missed meals

What the hell? Those were missed opportunities to get content for Commons of Russian food, and Wikinews articles on the dining experience! You've gotta think bigger with funding requests!

I'm vaguely reminded of a story my jurisprudence professor told us about a certain well-known legal philosopher who taught at Oxford (I'll refrain from naming him because I don't remember all the details of this story and was never able to independently verify it), who was invited to a prestigious law school in New York, and who, due to the way the incidentals were covered, went out and rented a yacht on the law school's dime.

Vigilant · Unread post by **Vigilant** » Sat Jul 13, 2019 5:40 am

Pics and 'report' from her ski trip

http://en.wikiactu.com/?cat=1266&paged=2

Vigilant · Unread post by **Vigilant** » Sat Jul 13, 2019 5:59 am

Strange, she outed people all over her fan fiction site.

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Te ... and_outing

Harassment and outing

I would like WMF legal to consider the implications of harassment and outing regarding possible implementation of this policy. At the present, there is a very dangerous problem with Wikipedia of people using paid editing as a way of violating local policies regarding harassment and outing. Namely, these policies are ignored if people make the allegation that some one is in any way a paid editor. This recommendation would estentially enshrine into policy that dangerous practice by further encouraging people to target Wikipedia editors employment. Because the worst cases I have seen have involved women (and gender specific harassment), this potentially leaves open the WMF to violating the civil rights of women by creating a hostile workplace for them, whether they work for the WMF or not. Also, it encourages harassment, and successful harassment at that. The WMF supporting this is esentially the WMF supporting the harassment of volunteers and their employment. Beyond hurting the potential to recruit new editors, it will also hurt the WMF's ability to hire new employees from within the community because no sane person and quality candidate is going to want to subject themselves to potential job loss any given day because the community has been licensed by the WMF to harass editors. --LauraHale (talk) 08:25, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

@Evensteven:, I think that your conclusion is flawed in that it favours the possibility of a bad paid edit being more problematic for English Wikipedia than English Wikipedia trying to recruit and retain all editors. Let me give you an example from my own editing experience: I edited roller derby articles. I had a picture of a roller derby player on my user page. Some one was trying to insert a non-notable league into several pages on Wikipedia. I removed the references and nominated the article for deletion. The person who was trying to include the non-notable league concluded by these actions that I must be working for a competing roller derby league and working to promote them on Wikipedia at the expense of their league. They made this accusation pubic despite zero evidence for it. I largely stopped editing roller derby articles because it wasn't worth that. (In many other circumstances, these accusations are followed up by Wikipedians contacting the people they believe to be the employer, with and without disclosure.) If I was working for the organization, WP:OUTING was violated. If I was not, they were seeking to harass me and make false accusations specifically to allow them to push their own point of view. That's the problem here. These accusations of paid editing, without evidence or in violation of WP:OUTING and WP:HARASSMENT, are bad for Wikipedia. --LauraHale (talk) 09:51, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

@Slaporte (WMF): and @Geoffbrigham:, One potential solution is to provide additional information in this proposal that says anyone violating the WMF's privacy guidelines by providing information of a person's employment on a Wikimedia project 1) may be in violation of local laws (as is the case in Finland, South Africa and other countries), 2) violates the WMF's privacy agreement and 3) may be subject to an immediate office action block. Sharing speculation about a person's potential employment is also considered harassment on 19 different Wikipedia projects, and probably several other sister projects. It should be cautioned that any accusations of paid editing that are not disclosed should be made directly to WMF staff to handle to avoid potential legal troubles and possible blocking on local projects. This wording would help, and would empower local administrators to better prevent harassment on this issue. A separate OTRS queue should also be set up for people to report accusations of paid editing, especially ones that have negatively impacted their offline life directly to WMF staff who can provide assistance for those targeted. This cannot be left up to the projects to interpret because this is coming from the WMF's own global terms of use policy and privacy policies that should not be left up to local interpretation. --LauraHale (talk) 19:15, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

Note the emphasis on outing employment and then note the date.

Unread post by **Midsize Jake** » Sat Jul 13, 2019 7:11 am

Vigilant wrote:Some of Laura's quality 'work product'
Why women do not edit Wikipedia and reasons why they do. In flowchart form. Lists are so Wikipedia 2.0.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Wiki ... e_(30).JPG
I mean, what the actual fuck?!
That's not anything like a flow chart on any human settled planet.

Did you actually zoom in on it and read it? Start in the middle at "Why not edit," go southwest to "Personal," and the one immediately due south of that is "Nepotism."

I mean, I'm trying to be open-minded about this, but we're a month into this and it just keeps getting more absurd by the hour.

C&B · Unread post by **C&B** » Sat Jul 13, 2019 7:34 am

Randy from Boise wrote:Friends of journalists: we may now have the "hook" they have been looking for to break this story bigger in the mainstream press. It's all about insider abuse of donor money.

RfB

P.S. Fuck Breitbart!

P.P.S. I notice that Victuallers (T-C-L)(Roger Bamkin)* is one of Vanished User adhmfdfmykrdyr (T-C-L) 's biggest defenders against Fram on her talk page. Why does that somehow not surprise me?

Victuallers wrote:Step away Fram. Others are telling you that are being obsessive. You are calling into question an admin's qualifications because they are not agreeing with you about an article that was so terrible that it had to be completely deleted from user space. Was it a terrorist bomb plot? or a libel against a saint? Or something so subtle that only experienced admins like you can appreciate the nuance? Step away Fram, this is not reflecting well on you. (Oct. 5, 2016)

* - Self-identified on-wiki.

Victuellers is fucking incompetent.

mendaliv · Unread post by **mendaliv** » Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:16 am

Midsize Jake wrote:Did you actually zoom in on it and read it? Start in the middle at "Why not edit," go southwest to "Personal," and the one immediately due south of that is "Nepotism."

I mean, I'm trying to be open-minded about this, but we're a month into this and it just keeps getting more absurd by the hour.

Some of these are bizarre. "Why not edit -> Community -> Intolerance of difference -> Not invited to parties".

Best one though? "Why not edit -> Personal -> Want to be paid". Ain't that the truth?

Some of these illegible ones have me the most curious though.
"Why not edit -> Environment -> Cultural -> Porn (illegible) USA"
"Why not edit -> Environment -> Cultural -> Costs for (illegible) -> Not an issue for men"

Unread post by **Midsize Jake** » Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:44 am

mendaliv wrote:Some of these illegible ones have me the most curious though.
"Why not edit -> Environment -> Cultural -> Porn (illegible) USA"
"Why not edit -> Environment -> Cultural -> Costs for (illegible) -> Not an issue for men"

I think that's "Porn keeps away USA" and "Costs for escorts." The latter is understandable, since they'd probably place a lot of importance on IRL meetups and edit-a-thons, and many women are (understandably) intimidated by the idea of going to unfamiliar cities alone.

As for the former, that's probably because most of the coverage of Wikipedia's porn problem has appeared in US media outlets, and most of the people at this particular meeting were probably of the opinion that the rest of the world is not so bothered by porn in general (or that they just don't know it's there because of the sparse coverage). The link Mr. Vigilant posted earlier is fairly indicative of that, IMO.

In all fairness, most of those things are perfectly valid reasons why people (and women in particular) don't get involved with Wikipedia. I just did a double-take when I saw "nepotism" there - if anything, that probably would have been the least valid reason they listed, until just recently at least.

The Adversary · Unread post by **The Adversary** » Sat Jul 13, 2019 9:19 am

Not to mention that you have:
"Why not edit -> Environment -> Children and family" .....aaaaaand:
"Why not edit -> Personal -> Children and family"

....where she has two different nodes; both name "Children and family"

Vigilant wrote:She went to Buenos Aires in 2012 for the Wiki Women's camp...

Actually, LauraHale was one of the organisers, and it was at there she met Sefdari for the first time... (this, according to what LauraHale said in the video you (Vigilant) earlier posted,)

Moral Hazard · Unread post by **Moral Hazard** » Sat Jul 13, 2019 10:22 am

Vigilant wrote:She went to Buenos Aires in 2012 for the Wiki Women's camp...
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File ... ro_028.JPG

You'll never guess who else showed up...

María! --- I just met a girl named María!

Stephen Sondheim (West side story) wrote:Maria . . .

The most beautiful sound I ever heard:
Maria, Maria, Maria, Maria . . .
All the beautiful sounds of the world in a single word . .
Maria, Maria, Maria, Maria . . .
Maria!
I've just met a girl named Maria,
And suddenly that name
Will never be the same
To me.
Maria!
I've just kissed a girl named Maria,
And suddenly I've found
How wonderful a sound
Can be!
Maria!
Say it loud and there's music playing,
Say it soft and it's almost like praying.

Maria,
I'll never stop saying Maria!

The most beautiful sound I ever heard.
Maria.

Moral Hazard · Unread post by **Moral Hazard** » Sat Jul 13, 2019 10:42 am

Midsize Jake wrote:
Vigilant wrote:Some of Laura's quality 'work product'
Why women do not edit Wikipedia and reasons why they do. In flowchart form. Lists are so Wikipedia 2.0.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Wiki ... e_(30).JPG
I mean, what the actual fuck?!
That's not anything like a flow chart on any human settled planet.
Did you actually zoom in on it and read it? Start in the middle at "Why not edit," go southwest to "Personal," and the one immediately due south of that is "Nepotism."

I mean, I'm trying to be open-minded about this, but we're a month into this and it just keeps getting more absurd by the hour.

Language limitations (No hay castellano, no hay problema!)
Some places expect that you work for free (Grifters gotta grift)
Lack of mentorship (before María!)

Poetlister · Unread post by **Poetlister** » Sat Jul 13, 2019 6:39 pm

Kumioko wrote:
Moral Hazard wrote:The WMF is being squeezed by dumb, insufferable grifters, who accuse anybody who raises questions of being misogynist or Gamergaters.
I couldn't agree with you more here. They do have some good people, but they are overshadowed by the incompetent, the corrupt and the obnoxious.

Very true. I do feel sorry for the good people, who of course are forced to share the blame with the rest of them.

Poetlister · Unread post by **Poetlister** » Sat Jul 13, 2019 6:42 pm

mendaliv wrote:Pine has posted more e-mails (and restored the original e-mail thread from the archives again). Link

Unsurprisingly, Pipermail has been flooded with discussions about Fram. It makes this thread look concise and orderly.

Vigilant · Unread post by **Vigilant** » Sat Jul 13, 2019 10:12 pm

Brain melting. I dare you to watch the whole thing.

generic_hipster · Unread post by **generic_hipster** » Sat Jul 13, 2019 10:28 pm

Vigilant wrote:[...] fuck!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Wiki ... _Laura.jpg

We discussed picture policy early on. Everyone is comfortable with their pictures. --LauraHale (talk) 05:59, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
I can't see how.

what's that behind her? the top two paragraphs read:

Laura: money is an ssue. justification for providing funding to people from other counties is difficult with WM-Australia. There are conficts about the right way of spelling words between the English speakers of different countries. The Chapter was very supportive with the idea of conducting a WikiWomenscamp(?) and offered scholarships. The board and the members were very supportive and they were aware that openspace(?) works well. The editor community requests the boards for conducting the projects and the board provides funding for the same. WM-Australia would like to have professional funding and the chapter is working towards it. WikiMedia Australia is planning to create their own version of commons as they have copyright issues.

Maria: Many interactions happen between other chapters and Spain. There are experienced people working with wikiprojects. There are differences is the usage of words between Argentine and Spanish speakers of Spanish language. She is well known to the board. Some people at the board had doubts a to if she would perform well on the Board. The Board has to look after the Budget. The Board expects to go professional in around 5 years.

(emphasis added)

A new Commons? and what does she mean by "the board expects to go professional in around 5 years"?

Oh, it may have something to do with stuff like this:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/File:Argentine_abortion_rights_protest_in_Puerta_del_Sol_with_2019_Champions_League_signs.jpg
(edited)

mendaliv · Unread post by **mendaliv** » Sat Jul 13, 2019 10:32 pm

generic_hipster wrote:"the board expects to go professional in around 5 years"

I would venture a guess that it means transitioning from a member-driven board (not sure if what's meant is WMF or chapter board) to a board made up of experienced board members like a normal corporation.

Casliber · Unread post by **Casliber** » Sat Jul 13, 2019 10:34 pm

Guido den Broeder wrote:
Vigilant wrote:Doc James has a few things to answer for as well.
Absolutely. Starting with some very dubious edits to Chronic Fatigue Syndrome.

Oh yeah? Please enlighten us! Mods....maybe a new thread...

Vigilant · Unread post by **Vigilant** » Sat Jul 13, 2019 10:51 pm

mendaliv wrote:
generic_hipster wrote:"the board expects to go professional in around 5 years"
I would venture a guess that it means transitioning from a member-driven board (not sure if what's meant is WMF or chapter board) to a board made up of experienced board members like a normal corporation.

It's mean they'd get paid a bunch to be board members.

Unread post by **tarantino** » Sat Jul 13, 2019 10:51 pm

Casliber wrote:
Guido den Broeder wrote:
Vigilant wrote:Doc James has a few things to answer for as well.
Absolutely. Starting with some very dubious edits to Chronic Fatigue Syndrome.
Oh yeah? Please enlighten us! Mods....maybe a new thread...

Guido doesn't like us anymore, so he probably won't respond.

mendaliv · Unread post by **mendaliv** » Sat Jul 13, 2019 10:53 pm

Vigilant wrote:
mendaliv wrote:
generic_hipster wrote:"the board expects to go professional in around 5 years"
I would venture a guess that it means transitioning from a member-driven board (not sure if what's meant is WMF or chapter board) to a board made up of experienced board members like a normal corporation.
It's mean they'd get paid a bunch to be board members.

Ah. Yeah. Probably.

Normally I'd counterpoint that it also means they'd hire people qualified for the role. But then again this is WMF we're talking about.

mendaliv · Unread post by **mendaliv** » Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:01 pm

The Signpost RFAR just got rejected by an equally divided Committee.

Vigilant · Unread post by **Vigilant** » Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:45 pm

mendaliv wrote:The Signpost RFAR just got rejected by an equally divided Committee.

Cool.

WP:BLP is just a suggestion.

Any sufficiently connected editor can write libel in an officially sanctioned en.wp newsletter if the target is unpopular enough.

Since it's open season, allow me to retort.

You'll note that the information is struck out, so, I guess that's sufficient these days.

If the signpost can post libel, I can post truth.
I've got all your docs, Peter.

Edit: address removed. -t

eagle · Unread post by **eagle** » Sun Jul 14, 2019 3:55 am

Vigilant wrote:Pics and 'report' from her ski trip

http://en.wikiactu.com/?cat=1266&paged=2

If I remember correctly, Laura Hale and friend were in Australia and traveled to Colorado to be accredited to photo this ski tournament. They also proposed to stop by San Francisco to say "hi" to the WMF staff. They left before getting funding, and were upset because the WMAU turned them down after they left. The next year, Laura Hale ran for WMAU President. The point is that if the WMF wanted a volunteer to photograph and write up this ski tournament for WikiNews, why could not some resident of Colorado (or North America) be recruited for that mission without the trans-Pacific travel?

mendaliv · Unread post by **mendaliv** » Sun Jul 14, 2019 4:41 am

eagle wrote:The point is that if the WMF wanted a volunteer to photograph and write up this ski tournament for WikiNews, why could not some resident of Colorado (or North America) be recruited for that mission without the trans-Pacific travel?

Exactly, that's the part that drives me crazy. If there's a genuine reason why someone local won't do, fine. For instance, if there's little or no Wikimedia movement in the country or region and you have made (documented) attempts to get local coverage that have failed. Or the person wanting to travel has some particular skill or training that's necessary to accomplish a discrete task (like lead a training session to train other people to do the same tasks locally).

But for stuff that becomes "part" of the requestor (e.g., training, certifications, memberships, equipment, software, etc.) that should generally not be reimbursed. For instance, a lot of venues require pro photographers to have insurance coverage. Would it be a reasonable request for funding to take out an insurance policy so you could get funding to photograph an event? Will insurers even sell you an equipment policy that just covers a couple of days? And what about other intangibles?

And, my god, how much would it have cost to pay someone local to go there? Like literally hire a pro photographer. Put out a "Call for Photographers" using Geonotice (which has existed in some form since at least 2007) and offer mileage reimbursement and an easy application.

Vigilant · Unread post by **Vigilant** » Sun Jul 14, 2019 6:36 am

mendaliv wrote:
eagle wrote:The point is that if the WMF wanted a volunteer to photograph and write up this ski tournament for WikiNews, why could not some resident of Colorado (or North America) be recruited for that mission without the trans-Pacific travel?
Exactly, that's the part that drives me crazy. If there's a genuine reason why someone local won't do, fine. For instance, if there's little or no Wikimedia movement in the country or region and you have made (documented) attempts to get local coverage that have failed. Or the person wanting to travel has some particular skill or training that's necessary to accomplish a discrete task (like lead a training session to train other people to do the same tasks locally).

But for stuff that becomes "part" of the requestor (e.g., training, certifications, memberships, equipment, software, etc.) that should generally not be reimbursed. For instance, a lot of venues require pro photographers to have insurance coverage. Would it be a reasonable request for funding to take out an insurance policy so you could get funding to photograph an event? Will insurers even sell you an equipment policy that just covers a couple of days? And what about other intangibles?

And, my god, how much would it have cost to pay someone local to go there? Like literally hire a pro photographer. Put out a "Call for Photographers" using Geonotice (which has existed in some form since at least 2007) and offer mileage reimbursement and an easy application.

Because they are naked grifters.

Their vacation plans are the reason for the trip.

They provide no value in return for the travel grants.
You've seen the photos of their 'work'.
You've watched the videos.

I've seen better work from a special needs art class.

Vigilant · Unread post by **Vigilant** » Sun Jul 14, 2019 6:41 am

Vigilant wrote:
mendaliv wrote:The Signpost RFAR just got rejected by an equally divided Committee.
Cool.

WP:BLP is just a suggestion.

Any sufficiently connected editor can write libel in an officially sanctioned en.wp newsletter if the target is unpopular enough.

Since it's open season, allow me to retort.

You'll note that the information is struck out, so, I guess that's sufficient these days.

If the signpost can post libel, I can post truth.
I've got all your docs, Peter.

Edit: address removed. -t

Your rental in NJ...

Your Russian mail order bride...

Vigilant · Unread post by **Vigilant** » Sun Jul 14, 2019 7:13 am

Who approved Maria Sefidari to the board.

https://foundation.wikimedia.org/wiki/R ... _WMF_Board

Resolution:Appointing María Sefidari to WMF Board

This resolution was approved unanimously on August 10, 2017.

Resolved, the Board of Trustees ("Board") approves and authorizes the selection of María Sefidari to fill one of the seats selected by the Summer 2017 Board Elections for the coming term.

Resolved, María Sefidari is appointed to the Board, for a term of three years beginning on August 10, 2017, and continuing until September 1, 2020 or until the Board appoints a replacement for that seat, whichever comes first.

This Resolution will be effective as of August 10, 2017.

Approve
Christophe Henner (Chair), Maria Sefidari (Vice Chair), Dariusz Jemielniak, Kelly Battles, Jimmy Wales, Nataliia Tymkiv, and Alice Wiegand

Ryuichi · Unread post by **Ryuichi** » Sun Jul 14, 2019 7:33 am

Vigilant wrote:Who approved Maria Sefidari to the board.

https://foundation.wikimedia.org/wiki/R ... _WMF_Board

To be fair, that appointment was on the basis of Sefidari having been successful in the 2017 elections.

The 2016 appointment is perhaps more interesting: https://foundation.wikimedia.org/wiki/R ... tment_2016

Approve
Patricio Lorente, Alice Wiegand, Frieda Brioschi, Guy Kawasaki, Dariusz Jemielniak, Denny Vrandečić, and Kelly Battles
Absent
Jimmy Wales

Unread post by **Midsize Jake** » Sun Jul 14, 2019 7:57 am

Vigilant wrote:Your rental in NJ...

Your Russian mail order bride...

Your Persian cat from Petsmart...

Your hydroponic tomato-growing operation in Burkina Faso...

Poetlister · Unread post by **Poetlister** » Sun Jul 14, 2019 10:42 am

generic_hipster wrote:...

A professional board would be good, but people wouldn'tlike it. They'd say it lacks democratic credibility.